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4 Posts
Source: Battle.net
A new season means a new map pool! We’ll be adding the following new team maps: - 2v2 – Redstorm
- 3v3 – Stranded Isles
- 4v4 – Last Impact
We are also adding the following new maps to the 1v1 ladder: And we will be removing the following maps: - Blackpink LE
- Backwater LE
- Abiogenesis LE
- Eastwatch LE
- Neon Violet Square LE
The final map pool will be:The new maps are available in Custom games starting today. Season 2 will begin on Tuesday, May 15, at which the new map pool will be live on the ladder. Expect a full blog which will expand on each of the new maps at that time.
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good to see Catalyst is sticking around, definitely my favorite map right now. Also it will be nice to have a 4 spawn map in the pool again
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Thank god they are adding 4p maps back into the pool. Hopefully that'll teach some people here that 4p maps aren't heresy and should have a chance during map contests 
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4p map and uThermal's favorite map
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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I'm happy to see Darkness Sanctuary and Dreamcatcher, but not the other maps 
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Fuck. I hate this map pool.
Dreamcatcher, Darkness Sanctuary and 16-bit aren't that good, and Redshift (oh that's Backfeifengesicht) is positively awful. Lost and Found, Acid Plant and Catalyst (which should be replaced by Blueshift since they're so similar) are good at least, but they can't save this terrible map pool.
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I kind of wish they would swap either redshift or dream catcher for a different map.. I think treachery would be a good replacement that map was really interesting
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What's the point of having map contests if Blizzard are just going to ignore the results anyways? Redshift/really long German name was one of the worst maps in the contest, and it goes on ladder, while Blueshift gets 2nd and it doesn't? I guess this is one way to satiate the Terran whining by giving them a few more free win maps.
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On May 02 2018 04:47 Solar424 wrote:
What's the point of having map contests if Blizzard are just going to ignore the results anyways? Redshift/really long German name was one of the worst maps in the contest, and it goes on ladder, while Blueshift gets 2nd and it doesn't? I guess this is one way to satiate the Terran whining by giving them a few more free win maps.
They didn't ignore the contest. In fact this whole mess is because they follow the public voting too closely. Backfeifengesicht got sixth place (though everything was really close this time).
Blizzard basically mindlessly grabbed the best performer in each category--I'd much rather have Blizzard ignore the results and think about things rather than follow what the clueless audience voted for. Also Blizzard needs to realize that the rush and to a lesser extent new category often don't have any good maps in them among the finalists.
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disappointed to have a 4p map again. I thought we finally got rid of that garbage.
Also sad we don't get Blueshift, that map seemed like a goat map contender. I guess it was to similar to Catalyst.
And why do we have 2 "weird" maps in this pool I thought we had settled on only having one of those per pool??
Very disappointed by this announcement. 3 instant vetoes.
At least the remaining 4 maps are good, so that's a plus.
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destructible rocks gold base? seems dumb for zerg although mineral line can be abused
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I'm kind of missing the images they normally bring with the maps :/
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Finally 4 spawn map! Thank you so much GSL. 
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Are these map favoring particular matchup ? (like PvZ or ZvP etc)
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Looks like some pretty cool maps actually, might dabble around again a bit :D
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On May 02 2018 05:37 Mun_Su wrote:
Are these map favoring particular matchup ? (like PvZ or ZvP etc)
gas geyser at inbase natural on 16-bit and lost and found can be hit by tanks. Multiple open attack paths on third on dreamcatcher favors zerg. Large rush distance on darkness sanctuary disfavors terran. The inbase GOLD natural on redshift is probably the most interesting since its accessible without killing the rocks. However mineral line is exposed so its hard to say which race is really favored, im just going to say that protoss will probably take this expand fast, make 1 tempest to defend and go skytoss for the memes
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Great map pool. One of the best in a long time
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Redshift is gonna have ccs floating to the gold :D
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Thank god on some of the maps leaving the pool. The problem is some of the replacements look like just a different flavor of bad. Hopefully they play better in reality.
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On May 02 2018 06:45 dswarm wrote:
Redshift is gonna have ccs floating to the gold :D
I'd be shocked if anyone ever took it rather than 2-base all-inning exploiting the second entrance.
And even if it was a reasonable base lifting CCs doesn't work well with the twelve worker start as we saw from Habitation Station.
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16-bit is nice. Overall a weird map tool. Not sure why DreamCatcher is doing in this map pool?
They can bring some old maps back. Not need to use new maps all the time.
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Bring on the veto pain train!.
OP: I'm surprised they put Dreamcatcher in. I thought most of the views regarding the map during Wardi's tourney were negative.
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On May 02 2018 07:22 DSK wrote:
Bring on the veto pain train!.
OP: I'm surprised they put Dreamcatcher in. I thought most of the views regarding the map during Wardi's tourney were negative.
The people who actually watched it play were rather negative about it, but it got fourth in public voting since it looks cool and different from the overview.
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I like the current mappool so much, i don't even veto abio, all good things must come to an end 
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Redshift and Dreamcatcher actually made it in? I haven't tried them out but they remind me of 2010 maps for some reason
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I just want them to bring back Terraform for a season...
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Most of the maps I like but Darkness Sanctuary is going to be even more of a turtle map than Backwater.
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Seems like some adventurous new maps not sure how the balance will play out. I also loved blue shift, surprised its not there.
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On May 02 2018 08:24 iamho wrote:
Most of the maps I like but Darkness Sanctuary is going to be even more of a turtle map than Backwater.
The only game I've seen of it was in the GSL Semis where Dark rammed his head against a brick wall for 30 minutes, so probably.
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I want to see maps with interesting mechanics such as where the lava floods the low grounds every few minutes.
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On May 02 2018 06:54 Zaros wrote:
Shittiest map pool ever?
clearly you weren't around during WoL
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On May 02 2018 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote:clearly you weren't around during WoL
You don't even need to go that far back. Several of the map pools in 2016 were probably worse.
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Too bad Neon Violet Square doesn't stay
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On May 02 2018 09:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote:On May 02 2018 06:54 Zaros wrote:
Shittiest map pool ever? clearly you weren't around during WoL You don't even need to go that far back. Several of the map pools in 2016 were probably worse.
Dasan Station was one of the worst, but a lot of the WoL maps would be complete memes if released today.
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Gotta love red shift.
It's quite experimental.
Nice new team maps too.
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8748 Posts
These will be at WCS Austin?
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On May 02 2018 10:31 NonY wrote:
These will be at WCS Austin?
Yes.
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On May 02 2018 09:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote:On May 02 2018 06:54 Zaros wrote:
Shittiest map pool ever? clearly you weren't around during WoL You don't even need to go that far back. Several of the map pools in 2016 were probably worse.
Yeonsu and its 3 different points of entrance for blink. Or Polar Station where 300° of the base had a blinking entrance.
Those where the reasons the dead space between the main and the rest of the map are so large now.
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Happily surprised there's only 1 Catalyst in this pool
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Setting aside whether or not the new map pool is better, are you ducking kidding me to change the mappool BEFORE Austin!?!?!?!? Do it AFTER so people can prepare in between WCS Austin and Valencia!
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On May 02 2018 13:05 shadow111 wrote:
Setting aside whether or not the new map pool is better, are you ducking kidding me to change the mappool BEFORE Austin!?!?!?!? Do it AFTER so people can prepare in between WCS Austin and Valencia!
They have an entire month (and two weeks on ladder) to prepare. It's hardly the same scenario as for Leipzig.
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Well, there is no BloodBoil in the map pool at least.
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So 100% banrate for Darkness for Bo3/5s or a similar fate as Abiogenesis.
I would like more 4p maps but if there is only 1 of them i the pool, it is going to eat the ban hammer most of the time
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Oh 4 player map with no spawn limitations, let's see how tvz is impacted
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On May 02 2018 14:48 LennX wrote:
So 100% banrate for Darkness for Bo3/5s or a similar fate as Abiogenesis.
I would like more 4p maps but if there is only 1 of them i the pool, it is going to eat the ban hammer most of the time
Wouldn't be so sure about it. Though the map obviously suffers from the random spawning, the rotational imba isn't too strong and the first 4 bases layout isn't very favourable to random bullshit and abusive plays. Now that it'll be on the ladder, people will have an easier time getting accustomed to it and it'll be played more
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On May 02 2018 14:48 LennX wrote:
So 100% banrate for Darkness for Bo3/5s or a similar fate as Abiogenesis.
I would like more 4p maps but if there is only 1 of them i the pool, it is going to eat the ban hammer most of the time
The guaranteed ban will be Redshift but in bo3s we'll probably not see Darkness or Dreamcatcher either.
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Austria24417 Posts
I'm really not excited for this.
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I find it a bit odd that there is this much of a changeup. Five new maps, in the context of Blizzard opting to collect more data, wait for strats to be refined and allow the meta to 'settle' further before making significant balance changes.
Yes, the current map pool is 2p/macro focused but a big changeup doesn't exactly make it simpler to judge balance, especially if the current pool hasn't been entirely figured out / has gotten stale yet. I get that map variation is essential for a robust assessment of balance across map-types but maybe start with changing 3 maps?
This does make me wonder if Blizz will now allow the new batch of maps time to settle before changes to balance. It seems to me a bit silly if they didn't wait, at least a 2-3 months.. Afterall, a balance change around the same time adds a lot more variables to the already ghastly asymmetric equation. Not only does this makes blizzard's life more difficult but seems to also put their aims at cross-purposes to some extent, not to mention the possible (let's be honest here, very probable) highly rousing effect such a situation could have on our Great Chorus of Whiners, a group I suspect are probably just a little bit overly influential... and are certainly not in need of any extra encouragement to dial up the volume knob.
Personally, I'm over NVS and Blackpink and am happy to see abiogenesis go but I'm still having a lot of fun games on Eastwatch and Backwater.
I can't comment on the new maps as haven't played any games on them but I'm looking forward to hiding bases on darkness sanctuary ala Maru vs. Dark >
Oh and what's the deal with this emerging trend of colorful map names? Now with Red/Blue shift we only need a few more before we can petition for #Rainbow pool. Not only is it miles (nay, Leagues  ) better than that nightmarish dreampool fiasco, it's also pro-diversity and LGBTQ friendly to boot!  
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Katowice25012 Posts
On May 02 2018 10:31 NonY wrote:
These will be at WCS Austin?
And don't forget sign ups are out to play these new maps in WCS Austin!!! Get your spot today!!!!
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On May 02 2018 09:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote:On May 02 2018 06:54 Zaros wrote:
Shittiest map pool ever? clearly you weren't around during WoL You don't even need to go that far back. Several of the map pools in 2016 were probably worse.
I was but we had excuses of not knowing how the game works back then, after 8 years they should know better than this.
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8748 Posts
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i'm going to miss going 15 pylon proxy gateway every single pvt on abiogenesis
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Feels like Blizzard missed the calander. Its May 1 not Apr 1 ...
This new map pool ...
Blackpink is the best map in the pool and they remove it??? Also they keep Acid Plant??? Acid plant is a boring long rush distance map with a lot of empty spaces also the asthetics are medicore and they keep it???
Glad to see Dreamcatcher made it. Pros said its a worst map they ever played but who cares ... Blizzard has his own way after all ... They add Darkness Sanctuary which is a GSL map, but you never see it outside of bo7-s. So they add that one too. 16 bit is just a lame map like Eastwatch, where the design was like : "just add as many bases as you can". Redshift is just a troll map, you cant describe it other way ... Lost and found seems like an Acid Plant + Blackpink merge. It looks okay first, but as long as you watch it you'll discover a ton of empty space too. Also it feels too big.
Idk, i hope Blizzard will change his mind cause this looks like a bad joke...
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And Blizzard can't even get existing maps right... People have already found things that Blizzard broke on 16-bit and Darkness Sanctuary. It's not like these things are hard to QA.
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Yo.. what's with this map pool...
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Redshift will be vetoed to death.
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I mean from TLMC results those top 5 maps would be way better replacement for current maps. But even tho i think nothing will change regarding the maps, i would like to see one thing.. please for the love of god remove that dreamchatcher symbol from the map... its made by snow textures in the middle of grass... it so distractig on the map and even on the screen aswell.... Dont get me wrong i kinda like the layout, but.. the symbol is way to big and way to distracting ...
Otherwise its simple, announced week before going live? yeah no amount of feedback will change anything so this map pool is going live boys..
EDIT: its also bad for colorblind ppl aswell
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thank god for the 4 player map! so happy.
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Glad that some of the maps are leaving, Abiogenesis was definitely a perma-veto... Also glad to see Darkness Sanctuary, seems fun to get a 4p map again in the pool.
Can't wait for all the situational RNG on Redshift ecksdee
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Not really happy with the new mappool.
Dreamcatcher and Redshift looks quite bad gameplay wise and we also have 4p map which can result in unbalanced winrates.
I think I will veto first 2 and see how the darkness sanctuary meta will play out.
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- redshift instant veto for obvious reasons
- sanctuary veto : 4 players map is terrible balance wise as a Protoss specially vs random opponents
- dreamcatcher might be a third veto i really don't like bright colors... so distracting
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My reaction is that Redshift will be a veto easily. That will use up what was previously my Abiogenesis veto. Marine/Medivac/Tank pushes through the gold sections will be insanely good. Dreamcatcher I'm a little iffy on but I'll try it first.
Kinda sad to see Backwater gone after one season but I kinda get why. Most of my games that got past the midgame felt very similar.
Lost and Found looks like a good replacement for Blackpink. Darkness Sanctuary is so huge I'm not actually all that concerned about PvRandom on it. The natural looks big enough that you could likely easily pull off building your first pylon and gate at the natural against all 3 races.
Everything else looks fine. I'm glad Catalyst is still around. It's a fun map. Acid Plant is neat too so I'm fine with that.
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I do not care about maps until TvP becomes balanced.
At ladder level not even infestor broodlord was as absurd as the current TvP.
2-base all-in or die trying since macro games are a free win for Protoss. Playing TvP is just an awful experience.
It is not even hard to fix- just un-nerf widow mines so that it is possible to put some pressure on Protoss.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
There should be fixed spawns on 4p maps, hate that thing and I'm gonna rush everyone to death on that map, let's see how the map is loved
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I kind of wish another map was selected over Dreamcatcher. However, in TvP you can block the middle with a single reaper by having it on hold position. So like if you cannot scout I suppose you just block them from harassing you through the main middle entrance. (Literally, 1 reaper stops several stalkers. They cannot even shoot it because its hidden by the bushes)
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On May 07 2018 08:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I kind of wish another map was selected over Dreamcatcher. However, in TvP you can block the middle with a single reaper by having it on hold position. So like if you cannot scout I suppose you just block them from harassing you through the main middle entrance. (Literally, 1 reaper stops several stalkers. They cannot even shoot it because its hidden by the bushes)
Oh right I'd forgotten those rocks were added in the middle. Pretty sure Blizzard didn't realize, considering they patched out a similar issue on Blackpink.
In practice and at higher levels it just adds an extra 10 seconds for the stalkers to go around, but it sounds like an insanely frustrating "gotcha" at lower levels since the stalkers will try to path through the middle and get stuck, and the lower level players won't know/realize what happens. There's decent odds that Blizzard changes this for being "newbie unfriendly".
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If it's a problem, the fix would take less than a minute.
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On May 07 2018 08:50 Timmay wrote:
If it's a problem, the fix would take less than a minute.
Would you fix it by adding a gap in the LOS blockers or by adding a few more blockers on each side, so that the area isn't so easily cut off by a small number of units?
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If Blizzard let me fix it, I'd add a few more LoS blockers on each side.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 07 2018 07:04 deacon.frost wrote:
There should be fixed spawns on 4p maps, hate that thing and I'm gonna rush everyone to death on that map, let's see how the map is loved
Yeah, who knows why XXL 4p maps are used again.
During the 2017 spring map pool (Abyssal Reef • Bel'Shir Vestige • Cactus Valley • Honorgrounds • Newkirk Precinct TE • Paladino Terminal • Proxima Station) pros were voicing concern regarding spawns - drop/swarm host issues, cross vs horizontal/vertical, all nasty 4p bs - on Cactus and Honorgrounds. And we were able to have a 2p map pool after that, in summer 2017. People generally liked it: (Abyssal Reef • Ascension to Aiur • Blood Boil • Defender's Landing • Odyssey • Proxima Station • Sequencer), note that there still were XL maps in there (proxima, ascension, odyssey, sequencer), and even those caused some controversy balance wise. That, and the ghost of 3rax reaper and blood boil, etc was an issue too. But most people were glad that Honorgrounds and Cactus with their spawn issues was out, it was an okay-ish pool.
Putting the LOTV equivalent of Alterzim Stronghold in a map pool in 2018 has to be an experiment at best. The most obvious reasons I can find are these two: It was put in the GSL (because they do their own thing with a lot of 4p love), and it just so happened to have one great late-game on it. Similar to how Habitation Station got into the pool, after the one Scarlett/Bomber map. A lot of other games on Habitation weren't all that great, tbh. But it still got ladder. Darkness I don't see much good about, it's better than Alterzim but meh. Try flower scouting against a proxy DT shrine, fusion core, or proxy spire on a 4p XXL map. Back to 4P city for a competitive pool? No thanks
What was wrong with Acolyte for something this large? xD
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Norway839 Posts
Why did this thread die off? Darkness Sanctuary had a veto rate of 98% (it was only played ONCE in GSL Ro32) and now that it's on ladder, how do people feel about 4 player maps, darkness sanctuary, and the other maps in the pool? Are we having fun?
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The rest of the thread is probably still wondering why you compared Darkness Sanctuary to Alterzim Stronghold.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 20 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:
The rest of the thread is probably still wondering why you compared Darkness Sanctuary to Alterzim Stronghold.
Because a lot of these 4P maps are in my opinion over-sized, random, and generally un-enjoyable and quite heavily vetoed.
Darkness Sanctuary was apparently around in GSL S1 earlier this year but I hardly noticed it was there in the first place because it was vetoed in all but 4 series where it was a choice. It was vetoed 93.75% of the time...
I just looked up stats from GSL S1 2014 just to check what happened to Alterzim and it actually did perform much better with around 38% pick rate. Relative to Darkness, it's extremely impressive, but nothing much compared to mainstays like Catalyst.
Compare Darkness Sanctuary at 2%-6.25% pick rates this year to some of the well performing maps from 2018 GSL S2 Ro32:
Catalyst was chosen 24 times out of 40 possible. (60%)
Blackpink 33 out of 40 possible... (82.5%)
huh............??
In many other spaces people would've been fired for allowing a product with a 2-7% customer approval rate to be one seventh of a product portfolio... Can you imagine getting an indicative test report back where you see a sub 10% approval rating and still go through with it as one of seven flagship products, when the alternatives are in the 40-70% range? (Ideal pick rate in a Bo3 is 42.85%). Idk what kind of risk taking approach this is but so far it's got bad consequences. People even have trouble differentiating enemy units from their own under the dark teal color screen effect...
... in what reasonable scenario would a company dump a 82.5% success product when it's still pretty new, but push something with 2-7% approval rating for another season?
The 'diversity' argument for bringing in bad maps is laughable, diversity is destroyed because we end up with over-played map rates like what happened to Blackpink.. Everyone vetos the awful maps so we end up with less diversity! And what happens next, to get more diversity? Remove succesful over-performers like Blackpink, possibly? "It feels like every game I watch on TV is on Blackpink", right? Maybe good maps like Blackpink wouldn't be over-played in the first place if their peers didn't under-perform so hard, and maybe we shouldn't be so negative of successful maps to begin with to the extent where we have to remove them in order to 'get more variety'.. Stylistic and individual performance-based veto diversity is in the gutter because some of these vetos are absolute no-brainers, match-up performance percent is how people do vetos now. That's not how it should be, nobody should want to see some protoss veto map X for the 27th time in a row because that's what every protoss does. I'm not even sure if people are conscious about how this plays out or if anybody even cares, I'm feeling like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist over here.
Having only one 7x-map pool instead of two separate pools/ladders - one for WCS and an All-Star ladder or something - makes things ultra forced for everyone since we keep having these unnatural underperformers and 4p/gold base maps thrown our way. When a map under-performs as heavily as Darkness Sanctuary is currently doing, getting vetoed more than 90% of the time, it is effectively a reduction of the map pool to a 6-map one.
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I play casually. I ban all 4 player maps when playing so nothing big for me personally.
So I do agree, that four player maps are less fun, though there might be people who like them. Also watching 4 player maps isn't much different from other maps from my experience (I do watch a lot).
On another note I do find not only 4 player maps less fun, but also bigger maps in general. But could also be because I am not good enough at the game yet, so I find smaller maps easier to learn. (I loved Ulrena, if anyone remembers)
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Why keep it when it's doing poorly? Historic precedent perhaps. Look back at 2015. They added Iron Fortress to GSL in season 1, nobody played it. It became a ladder map, and in season 2 it was suddenly the 3rd most played map in Code S. Darkness Sanctuary just made ladder.
The players are apprehensive about playing new maps that aren't on ladder in GSL, even if it's 2-player maps. GSL Rak'Shir and GSL Sky Shield in 2016 went basically unseen in 2016 and are neither missed nor remembered, even though they're 2-player maps. Conversely, when Frost and Whirlwind (by the way, only slightly smaller than Darkness, and all way smaller than Alterzim) were brought back in 2016 and 2017 respectively, they got played a good amount across SSL and GSL.
It's not just because it's 4-p that Darkness Sanctuary didn't get played a lot in GSL up to this point. I agree with what you're saying about diversity, but overall it honestly seems like you're taking too much of a personal issue with the 4-p maps. Because I haven't seen many people going "YES, I GET TO PLAY ON REDSHIFT" and I'm sure uThermal has a thing or two to say about Dreamcatcher still.
I think they really tried to do too much with these map changes. 5 changes between two ladder seasons when it's not the off-season is really not very common and probably shouldn't be either. And I could see GSL still using Blackpink in their tournaments in September.
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I rather like that they changed five maps. Some maps only deserve to spend one season in the pool (and some don't deserve even that), maps that are good deserve two seasons, and only maps that are excellent deserve three. So sometimes when the maps introduced last season are iffy you're bound to end up with a bigger turnover. Yes maybe they could have kept Blackpink, but five maps changed isn't unreasonable in of itself.
Lots of maps changing can be trying for the players of course, but if you aren't proactive about rotating you end up with trash like proxima station sticking around.
I do 100% agree that a non-ladder map getting vetoed non-stop in GSL doesn't say much at all about the map. And Darkness Sanctuary isn't getting vetoed solely because it's 4 player, but also because it isn't too well designed even within that framework, and walling off the natural is a pain.
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On May 20 2018 06:24 Liquid`Snute wrote:
In many other spaces people would've been fired for allowing a product with a 2-7% customer approval rate to be one seventh of a product portfolio...
Professional players are not the customer, viewers are. When selecting vetoes, players value comfort over everything else. Viewer entertainment isn't a factor when they choose vetoes. If map fatigue is a real thing, and if viewers want variety, the least vetoed maps should be rotated out. Of course I'll have to add a caveat that truly awful maps should also be rotated out too. I'm not going to defend the inclusion of Darkness Sanctuary, as it's probably in the awful category for a number of reasons, but I don't want people using bad reasons to attack its inclusion.
If you have a map pool where everything is equally vetoed, none of them are doing anything interesting.
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If map fatigue is a real thing, and if viewers want variety, the least vetoed maps should be rotated out
I personally disagree. I think it's better to keep trying to get really good maps to stay with maps trying to live up to those standards in different ways. When we have fairly balanced maps that all do interesting things, such as the mega-standard Blackpink, the experimental Neon Violet and the middleground of Abyssal Reef, I feel like the vetoes can begin to cater more towards playstyle rather than uncomfort.
I think this would be the best thing to strive for. We just need to keep working on medium, rush and "new" maps for a while longer to get to this point. I personally don't care for much of the new pool, I'm pretty eh on Dreamcatcher, and I think Redshift can be a good wild card without being too ridiculous like Ulrena or Dasan Station.
The problem with Map Fatigue is people get tired of it when there are *no* real other good options. I only know of a small few who were tired of Blackpink and Catalyst. But now that Catalyst is really the only thing left, I expect Map Fatigue to set in quickly for it, even if it doesn't really deserve it.
Sometimes an aesthetic refresh is all we need too. I can't imagine people being too upset with playing Abyssal Blackpink Catalyst Ascension if they all got drastic aesthetic changes when fatigue began to set. We just haven't tried.
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On May 20 2018 09:26 Timmay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 06:24 Liquid`Snute wrote:
In many other spaces people would've been fired for allowing a product with a 2-7% customer approval rate to be one seventh of a product portfolio... Professional players are not the customer, viewers are.
What? A game is meant to be played, not meant to be watched. Nobody cares if a game is fun to watch if nobody plays it. Look at Overwatch; it's not particularly fun to watch but people still watch it because it's fun to play.
The "viewers first" approach or "tyranny of the spectator" as TheDwf put it is one of the reasons that led to the downfall of sc2.
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Norway839 Posts
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On May 20 2018 11:01 Liquid`Snute wrote:Another piece of history
It's quite interesting, but I'm not sure what the lesson is. That if almost all the maps in the pool are terrible, some of the slightly less terrible ones will inevitably see play?
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On May 20 2018 10:02 Charoisaur wrote:
What? A game is meant to be played, not meant to be watched.
We were talking about pro player vetoes in a tournament setting, not map preferences for casual players. Obviously the game needs to be fun for the people playing it, but I don't think anyone is quitting because Redshift was added to the ladder pool.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 20 2018 11:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:It's quite interesting, but I'm not sure what the lesson is. That if almost all the maps in the pool are terrible, some of the slightly less terrible ones will inevitably see play?
I think it is good evidence that some maps are capable of being brutally unwanted for competition, even two in the same map pool. Not even mirror match-ups could save these. Somewhere in the process, these can be weeded out before this type of damage can occur, imo. Interesting how the rest of this map pool had a lot of evenly spread love for its remaining maps. I'm sure there's a lot one could look into.. But personally my point of focus is that some maps clearly are capable of getting dumped into veto hell, and it's bad for everyone. I have a feeling Darkness Sanctuary is about to become one of those maps. If one had a way to predict and replace such maps before statistics like these are allowed to occur, I would consider it positive for pros, casuals, and viewers to do so. That's my if-i-was-a-developer take on it, anyway.
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Darkness Sanctuary, Infernal Pools, and Secret Spring are all doing the important job of making people play on my maps. Don't hate.
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On May 20 2018 11:23 Liquid`Snute wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 11:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 20 2018 11:01 Liquid`Snute wrote:Another piece of history It's quite interesting, but I'm not sure what the lesson is. That if almost all the maps in the pool are terrible, some of the slightly less terrible ones will inevitably see play? I think it is good evidence that some maps are capable of being brutally unwanted for competition, even two in the same map pool. Not even mirror match-ups could save these. Somewhere in the process, these can be weeded out before this type of damage can occur, imo. Interesting how the rest of this map pool had a lot of evenly spread love for its remaining maps. I'm sure there's a lot one could look into.. But personally my point of focus is that some maps clearly are capable of getting dumped into veto hell, and it's bad for everyone. I have a feeling Darkness Sanctuary is about to become one of those maps. If one had a way to predict and replace such maps before statistics like these are allowed to occur, I would consider it positive for pros, casuals, and viewers to do so. That's my if-i-was-a-developer take on it, anyway.
Blizzard sucks at picking maps. What's new? (Though I will disambiguate and mention that pros will to some extent veto "unusual" maps even if they have merit. As time goes on it normalizes a bit)
But as Blizzard is hardly likely to become better at picking maps overnight, one solution would be to expand the ladder map pool to say 11 maps (5 vetoes), and have tournaments pick 7 out of the 11 for their map pool. Like that tournaments can avoid disaster maps and we can even get some map diversity between different tournaments if there are enough good maps. Of course tournaments are liable to pick the seven largest turtliest macro and boring maps all the time, but it would still be an improvement.
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On May 20 2018 11:17 Timmay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 10:02 Charoisaur wrote:
What? A game is meant to be played, not meant to be watched. We were talking about pro player vetoes in a tournament setting, not map preferences for casual players. Obviously the game needs to be fun for the people playing it, but I don't think anyone is quitting because Redshift was added to the ladder pool.
You specificially said the viewer is the customer and not the casual player.
You're obviously right that pro player preferences aren't the all deciding thing but from seeing the shitstorm in the forums every time a very non-standard map gets added I'm sure the opinion of the casual players is very similar to that of pro players in this regard.
The only people who seem okay with maps like Redshift are those who mainly watch the game and don't play it hmmmmmm...
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Redshift is aight.
In-base naturals tho...
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I actually like that I need just 2 vetoes to play only on new maps.
I don't have any objection to the current map pool, but I'm also not in GM.
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Redshift in TvZ is an utter joke (as zerg). All of the 3rd base options (i consider the gold as a 3rd) are impossible to hold. Meanwhile terrun having fun with their inbase gold and overpowered siege tanks. The nat to gold distance is so long that you cant defend, cant attack. Whats the solution here? Roach allin every game? Or drops or swarm hosts? If u go roach allin they can just counterattack with drops or hellions ... Swarm host could be useful but they are really bad vs bio or hellbats. I dont see how drops could work either ...
I dont understand this. Blizzard doesnt play his own game or what? What was the reason that this garbage was added to the pool?
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Redshift is a pretty normal map for TvZ honestly.
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I just got back to SC2 and I'm fumbling around platinium terran games right now. Dreamcatcher feels really random so far. It feels like you need quite a bit of skill and routine to have any kind of proper games in it, but then again I take it it's not particularly good on pro games either.
Darkness sanctuanary colour scheme is kind of a pain and the huge 4 pl maps feel pretty to alternate between cheese and sterile macro too often. Once again it takes pretty immense skill to have interesting games on such a big map, on my level it feels like two players fumbling around without much ability to actually use the space.
The rest seem passable or interesting. I haven't had enough games on Redshift to have much say in it, but at least I find the golds there to be interesting initially. We'll see how abusive gets in the longer run.
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France12873 Posts
The map pool seems super shitty so far, Darkness sanctuary, 4 player map, seriously?
You can't even see your health bar on it btw -_-
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Vetoed Darkness Sactuary for being 4 player, units being pitch black, which is annoying, and 5th base is very far; Redshift because probe arrives before 16 hatch; and the other inbase map for being hard to spread creep and heavy terran or turtle favored.
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Oh, it looks like i'm not the only one being pissed off by the new maps.
Except for Lost and Found they are all disgustnigly bad.
Redshift and Dreamcatcher don't even need any comments. God they are aweful. But 16-bit. Seriously?! It's 2018 and we still get that lousy texture sets. Dark grey squares. All over the place. For real?
And another thing i can't stress enough, though noone really listens.
Dear, Mapmackers! STOP MAKING DARK-THEMED MAPS! Test your maps on lower/hybrid settings. I've complained for ages about lighting issues on Abyssal (though the map itself was ok), now we got 16-bit and Darkness sanctuary. If you don't care about players, then look at it from a viewers perspective. Just open a random SC2 stream and watch some games being played on 16-bit/DS. I'd die from horror if i were a SC2 newcomer. I can't fcking get it.
All in all. Blizzard!
Just replace Redshift with Blackpink (a really awesome map that deserves another season or 2). And we are fine.
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They should bring back Daybreak. It's time.
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On May 21 2018 16:55 Charoisaur wrote:
They should bring back Daybreak. It's time.
It's only been a year, should bring back another classic. Time for Muspelheim?
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On May 21 2018 17:27 insitelol wrote:
Overgrowth for Auir.
please for the love of flash no, we have seen way too much of that map already
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On May 21 2018 17:58 -NegativeZero- wrote:please for the love of flash no, we have seen way too much of that map already
Sounds like something an author of an Overgrowth clone presently in the map pool would say!
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Seriously, can someone poke blizzard, so they alter this retarded mappool?
Snute, let them know, be our savior!
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On May 21 2018 17:12 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 16:55 Charoisaur wrote:
They should bring back Daybreak. It's time. It's only been a year, should bring back another classic. Time for Muspelheim?
Xel'Naga Cavern,Antiga Shipyard or Metropolis would quite imba now
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These maps are such a joke. How to make this game even more unenjoyable to play. At least for zerg. Not only diversity is pretty much dead for the race. we not only have to deal with in base naturals, but free in base gold for other races, while not being able to take the gold ourselves.
Darkness sanctuary = cant even see anything on the map, as a zerg at least.
Map is super dark blue,+ purple creep.
I have opponents set as white, yet their units look blue. Everything look blue. In zvz all zerglings look the same even tho i have orange for my color and white for their color.
16 bits is in base natural with layouts super good for mech and protoss.
Dream catcher is tolerable.
Lost and found is actually a good map. The only great one really.
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On May 21 2018 22:46 Snakestyle1 wrote:
These maps are such a joke. How to make this game even more unenjoyable to play. At least for zerg. Not only diversity is pretty much dead for the race. we not only have to deal with in base naturals, but free in base gold for other races, while not being able to take the gold ourselves.
Darkness sanctuary = cant even see anything on the map, as a zerg at least.
Map is super dark blue,+ purple creep.
I have opponents set as white, yet their units look blue. Everything look blue. In zvz all zerglings look the same even tho i have orange for my color and white for their color.
16 bits is in base natural with layouts super good for mech and protoss.
Dream catcher is tolerable.
Lost and found is actually a good map. The only great one really.
I play terran, and have vetoed exacly the same maps, and for almost same reasons.
Of the new map I really like Lost and found. Dream catcher is also ok. But for me previous map pool was much better.
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Layout wise I'm still fine with experimenting and all that, but I really don't understand why we are using tilesets that make the game visually harder to understand. Darkness sanctuary is the worst offender obviously, but Dreamcatcher would probably be easier to understand with something else than light green too.
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I think this map pool is up there with the 2011 map pool (the third season I think?) as being among the worst map pools we've had (I'm talking the pool that had slag pits, nerazim crypt and searing crater). It's noticeably worse than the last pool we had and significantly worse than the one prior.
Darkness Sanctuary actively encourages horrid turtle games, especially in PvP and against mech. Same with 16-Bit. Redshift is super gimmicky. I haven't played enough games on Dreamcatcher to judge it yet but the couple I've played have been not so good.
Lost and Found is the only non-terrible new map so far, but it's not as good as either Blackpink or Neon Violet Square.
If they had kept either Blackpink or Neon Violet Square instead of Acid Plant (or any of the new maps), I'd be ok with the pool because at least once vetoes are done I'd have a 2/4 (or 3/4) chance of getting a good map (since Catalyst is great). I vetoed Acid Plant last season but it's now suddenly become one of the least worst options sadly.
At least have more maps if we have to have these ones. I looked it up and we used to have 10 maps in the 1v1 pool, not 7. With 7, using all 3 vetoes leaves you only 4 maps to play, and it gets stale quickly.
I hate to say it but I might end up skipping playing this season as a result. I'm just not having fun on this map pool.
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Every time the same story. A new mappool comes and everyone complains that it's the worst thing ever, then the next mappool comes and suddenly the old mappool was good and the new mappool is terrible.
I've seen this often enough to not take those complaints serious anymore, it's just a matter of getting used to the maps.
The only bad maps are Redshift and Darkness Sanktuary the rest is decent to good.
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On May 30 2018 15:05 Charoisaur wrote:
Every time the same story. A new mappool comes and everyone complains that it's the worst thing ever, then the next mappool comes and suddenly the old mappool was good and the new mappool is terrible.
I've seen this often enough to not take those complaints serious anymore, it's just a matter of getting used to the maps.
The only bad maps are Redshift and Darkness Sanktuary the rest is decent to good.
I'd rather pay attention to another "coinsidence": solid standard maps like catalyst, kss, overgrowth, abyssal, ascension to aiur, god even daybreak are ALWAYS the MOST played and LESS vetoed on all possible levels (from gsl to NA ladder). Even Blizzard themselves ALWAYS make these maps "stay for another season". Every single time. For 6 years.
But on the other hand, every single season (and TLMC) they try to force this degenerate "innovative map" concept. God we got billions of that over the years. All that dash and terminal, abiogenesis, dasan station, paladino terminal, ruins of endion stuff, you know. They (blizzard) even managed to "innovate" mappool w/o the help of the community intoducing us such masterpieces like inferno pools, klontas mire and, of course, one and only Daedalus Point Mmm yammi. Now we got redshift and DS (dreamcatcher and 16-bit are bad as well). Maps that everyone will ban and spit on and eventually happily forget in 4 months or so and never ever remember.
And btw I never heard anyone saying the maps i mentioned above were actually good even after they'd been on ladder for half a year. People just adapt thats true. It's in the nature of a man. But do we have a choice? Blizzard never listens. The fact you don't take the complaints seriously is a consequence of blizzard's continuous attitude who's acting like the feedback on this matter is just white noise. All they think about is shaking this game up (with stupid maps or balance tweaks, w/e) hoping that will increase the game's popularity. A free tip: it won't.
So yeah, we have another season of awful maps while there is INSANE amout of decent maps to choose from out there.
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Map pool with 7 Overgrowth clones would be boring as hell, I like that they're experimenting with interesting ideas.
It's a strategy game so adapting to different maps where you can't do your 0815 buildorder every game isn't asked too much.
If you don't like it, just veto the non-standard maps and play on the remaining 4-5 Daybreak clones.
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EPT
Dreamcatcher LE
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/OqyP1Cy.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/5LAE9nl.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/GFhVfma.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s2NMdXT.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9UMS5GF.png)
