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In the last weeks I have been going back and forth over banning a player called Poseidon for stream cheating, and today it came to a head. In a tournament called "Stor Vifte #3" he was caught streamcheating. While streaming his own games, you could hear the main tournament stream in the background.
He recieved a warning in that tournament because there were no explicit rules against streamcheating, a rookie mistake by the tournament organizer "Mutacrux". Poseidon was qualified for a tournament I funded and ran called "Code Elg". After a few players came to me complaining about Poseidon being allowed in the tournament, I made my decision. Using the rules Sc2.no has used in the past, I DQed Poseidon, but did not ban him from any other tournament, thinking this was a soft, but fair punishment, as he had already admitted it and in a way apologized.
Then the problems started. Poseidon and his teammate Microlife did not take this DQ well. Claiming that it was not stream cheating since the stream had a delay of 2 minutes and 7 seconds, claiming I DQed him because of my dislike for Poseidon and being a bully. Repeating these claims over and over for a couple of days.
I then tweeted about leaving sc2.no as their twitter and admin because of these two people, in an act of frustration. Probably not the smartest move, but I'm not perfect. I was then contacted by one of the managers of Prophecy Esports (of Ryung and Special fame) and I thought some accountability would finally happen. But it was quickly revealed to only be in search of getting my tweet taken down.
I then was talked into a skype "meeting" with two prophecy managers, Poseidon, Microlife and Mutacrux (somehow streamed, link here )
The point of this post, so I guess I could write TL:DR here, is that I am SHOCKED by the lack of ethics shown by the organization. Not only defending a caught streamcheater, but defending the act of streamcheating at all. If we are to believe the Physc players, one of the managers are also an admin for ESL, and that to me is very worrying.
So now I'm imploring you, the fans, do let Physc know that you feel this is a very bad mindset to have, that streamcheating is wrong and should not be allowed, thank you for your time, sorry for the wall of text.
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but there is delay, why ban him? if there are no rules regarding it in place and you have delay doesnt really hurt anyone. be better to ask him to turn off his stream. he was wrong to have the stream running but with delay on he doesnt really get much information.
next time be better to have these rules in place ahead of time or talk to their managers before issuing a ban like this.
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He wasn't banned from the Stor Vifte tournament, but the tournament I ran which had a rule in place which allowed me to ban for streamcheating in other tournaments
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On December 05 2017 09:51 A_Scarecrow wrote: but there is delay, why ban him? if there are no rules regarding it in place and you have delay doesnt really hurt anyone. be better to ask him to turn off his stream. he was wrong to have the stream running but with delay on he doesnt really get much information.
next time be better to have these rules in place ahead of time or talk to their managers before issuing a ban like this. not sure why in the world you think having a few minutes of delay won't have an impact. It is common sense that it is cheating and he deserved to be banned. Sure you can go by the letter, but I don't think rules have to necessarily explicitly ban every possible method of cheating.
So you're saying I can send a goon to my opponent's house and look at his computer and have him text me what he's doing during the match? It's not forbidden in the rules, so clearly I am allowed do it.
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It's stream cheating I think regardless. Who in the world would legit play while having stream playing also? I mean wouldn't the sound be annoying. It wasn't an accident from the sounds of it either. I think the player to should man up and admit to doing it and take the punishment. It's not the end of the world, and I think it's generous to not remove him from other tournaments. He should be happy without and writing/typing an apology to his team and fans.
Some will say with the delay no harm, but it still is an advantage over his opponent even with a delay. If there is maybe 15 minute delay, I can possibly see. I'm sorry, but with 2 minutes and 7 seconds, you can still gain an advantage over your opponent. I think poseidon and prepare his transitions more easily with less information in game. Some builds take times to develop which exceed 2 minutes and 7 seconds. If he knows about it vs not having a clue until it actually hits. It's a nice and unfair advantage to have over your opponent.
I don't think you have to go talk to a players team when you have proof like this either, it's up for the team to talk to the player afterwards and determine punishment, warning, or etc... I'm not saying the guy is a full blown cheater, but as a player who is playing serious and competitive knows better. I think your decision was perfect for the situation considering it was his first offense. I think it's a good job that you took interest and investigated the issue and taking the time to determine the correct actions. I would stand firm regardless of anything and leave it at that. I would just save all communication in case they try to make incorrect claims to the public to cover yourself.
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people are idiots m8, don't lose much sleep about it. in the years to come i assure you , you will experience similar things again and again and again. do what you can and move on . gl
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dont misunderstand me, i agree with the ruling just trying to figure out the process you guys took. did you take screen shots of all the conversations up to that point? if so and sent to the team after they inquired should be all sorted. stream cheaters should not be allowed but usually impossible to control, reason for delay.
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@Ingebrigtsen
Hey I'm one of the Prophecy team managers that were in the call yesterday, which I said also that I didn't consider that stream cheating.
I could probably have express myself a little bit better about it. I said that in good faith considering he didn't do it on purpose to intentionally stream cheat and he accidentaly left the stream open. If you have any proof of the other way around that he intentionally stream cheated please submit me any proof and actions will be taken.
We don't tolerate this behaviour from any of our players, to us playing fair and to be professional on any given circumstance is more important than winning a tournament.
However the reddit post you made about it, (Using a private recorded conversation while we were unaware of it and without any express consent). Became just a post used to deliberate attack our organization and our players, dragging into it even players who don't have anything to do with the situation and i feel this could have been handled better on your side without creating this unnecessary drama.
Still, if you have any concern and / or proof that any of our players did something wrong feel free to share it and actions will be taken.
Regards
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It clearly wasn't an accident to leave the stream open because who the hell has audio playing in the background "by accident"? Having said that, what exactly is the problem? Isn't this what stream delays are for?
Edit: Just thought of some hypotheticals where knowing something, even a couple of minutes late, would help. Yeah totally in support of the ban. Took me all of 10 seconds to see why it could be an issue, and honestly kinda embarrassed I didn't think of it straight away,.
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haha^
(lol sorry low content post, just tabbed from discord -_-;; )
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There's no excuse for having an audio stream on, even with a delay of 2 minutes. If we are to beleive this team manager of Prophecy, he just accidently left a stream open. Yeah right. Still inexcusable.
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I spoke earlier with one of the tournament organizer and agreed on Poseidon's ban from all of their future tournaments. We will have also an internal evaluation regarding what happened, because intentional or not i agree that's not an excuse and things like this should never happen. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
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Obviously stream cheating is bad, and if you can actually hear the tournament stream on someones personal stream, sure, ban them. To be frank though, there's nothing to stop someone from listening on headphones on their phone or some other way of listening that the stream won't hear.. If you are sincerely concerned that stream cheating from a delay impacts your games, then you should increase the delay or take other precautions, like cast from replay.
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