Here we go again! The GSL round of 16 is over, the outcome is quite "interesting", the SSL finals are close and there is even VSL to watch now. Why i called this version "hard decisions" ? I think this time it will be especially hard to make a solid list, but that makes it all the more interesting! I hope a lot of people will participate
To be clear: The list should reflect your opinion on the current strength of players.
What i want you to do:
Post your own power ranking in this thread, 10 players only, sorted by their current strength in LOTV. I will only count 'serious' lists, putting in Boxer won't do it.
New: Also pls TLPD-ize your lists, i will only count lists which are formatted that way!
So how would it work?
It's pretty simple, just post your top 10 in this thread. I will go through every post and add the points up. The point distribution will be like that:
1. place = 10 points 2. place = 9 points 3. place = 8 points etc.
How much time do i have to post the list?
You will have one week (New: instead of the usual two ones), which means i will count every list which is posted till June 13. (Time left to make a list: )
Feel free to discuss your rankings in this thread, if you have extra passion you also can write a short text for your favorite player and post it in here as well (it could be used for the final standings)
Reminder: You can change your list as often as you like, but i will only count the first list you posted in this thread (which means you should edit your post )
How can you put Stats at #1? IDIOT!!!! J/K... but I am interested in your reasoning. Have I missed some good games from him? I thought he even looked shaky in his GSL group that Trap should have edged him out of.
How can you put Stats at #1? IDIOT!!!! J/K... but I am interested in your reasoning. Have I missed some good games from him? I thought he even looked shaky in his GSL group that Trap should have edged him out of.
To be fair he did bad in SSL (worst zerg of his group), qualified in GSL ro16 in 2nd place then got eliminated, whereas a lot of other zergs are having success, so he can't really be considered top dog zerg anymore.
It should be obvious, but i count this as trolling. If you wanna be part of the community PR you know what to do
Everyone is so biased when it comes to Maru
At least Maru is still playing. I am not here to judge if the list is "objectively" good or not. But some lists are obviously trolling, including players who don't really play anymore is simply absurd. I hope you understand that
INno and Stats are consistent, they took a decent amount of wcs points at all tournaments
Stats is the only consistent one, Inno disappointed a lot lately (outside of his SSL run). and even Stats lost in the first round of the super tournament.
INno and Stats are consistent, they took a decent amount of wcs points at all tournaments
Stats is the only consistent one, Inno disappointed a lot lately (outside of his SSL run). and even Stats lost in the first round of the super tournament.
If you have to place extremely highly in every tournament you enter to count as "consistent" then we probably never had such a player in korean tournaments. Stats did really well, GSL champion + at least GSL ro8 + SSL 4th place. That's incredibly consistent
INno and Stats are consistent, they took a decent amount of wcs points at all tournaments
Stats is the only consistent one, Inno disappointed a lot lately (outside of his SSL run). and even Stats lost in the first round of the super tournament.
INno and Stats are consistent, they took a decent amount of wcs points at all tournaments
Stats is the only consistent one, Inno disappointed a lot lately (outside of his SSL run). and even Stats lost in the first round of the super tournament.
If you have to place extremely highly in every tournament you enter to count as "consistent" then we probably never had such a player in korean tournaments. Stats did really well, GSL champion + at least GSL ro8 + SSL 4th place. That's incredibly consistent
Yes Stats is consistent but except him the scene is much more close than usually. Right now I feel like in the top 12 everyone can beat everyone and it wouldn't be an upset. Last year we had several players (TY, Zest, Dark, Stats, ByuN at the end of the year) who were clearly a step above the competition
Very hard indeed. The top players are fairly equal in skill level. Couple this with the frequent balance updates and we never really see anyone dominate across several tournaments.
Honestly, it seems very even near the top. I don't think there is much difference between the number one ranked and the 9th. Depending on the match up, seems like anyone could win on any day.
ok this is impossible. I tried but I wasn't able to pick anybody outstanding at all. Most people who are doing well in one tournament are sucking in the other tournament.
On June 06 2017 06:20 Aunvilgodess wrote: ok this is impossible. I tried but I wasn't able to pick anybody outstanding at all. Most people who are doing well in one tournament are sucking in the other tournament.
Exactly. But it's still better than sucking at both . So it becomes quite easy to rank.
For all the people putting ByuN at the top (or near the top) of the list, consider this... Since Blizzcon, ByuN has performed as follows in premier tournaments:
IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 WESG: Not qualified IEM World Championship: Ro8 GSL S1: Ro32 SSL Premier S1: Not qualified GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
It simply doesn't make sense to say he is the best player (or the best terran).
On June 06 2017 07:59 DieuCure wrote: I agree, dont understand how they put him on top of the list.
If Cure#1 is troll, Byun#1-5 is too.
Cure anywhere is troll. Why? Because he is as inactive as you can be while not retiring. The point is not that i judge if a list is good or not, i obviously hope people think about it more than a few seconds but i won't set some arbitrary rules for each list. If people think Byun is on #1 then that's fine and while he really didn't have the best results in the last GSL, etc. He now is in the ro8 and might still advance to SSL premier.
So yeah, as long as you put players on the list who are active i won't really filter it, if there is too much trolling through other means i might simply consider to not do these again. Just a general FYI.
On June 06 2017 07:52 sneakyfox wrote: For all the people putting ByuN at the top (or near the top) of the list, consider this... Since Blizzcon, ByuN has performed as follows in premier tournaments:
IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 WESG: Not qualified IEM World Championship: Ro8 GSL S1: Ro32 SSL Premier S1: Not qualified GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
It simply doesn't make sense to say he is the best player (or the best terran).
In SSL he performed as the best terran of his group, in GSL he qualified relatively easily for the ro16, and he is doing very well in online tournaments right now. So he is in a hell of a good trend right now ; combine that with the fact that he had a similar path to GSL and Blizzcon and it might explain why people start putting him on top again.
There is still a lot of time guys, i think code s this week will actively change a few things as well Personally i think that soO will be rather high in my list
It's close to impossible to make a top 10 i thought, so i decided to make tiers (no order within tiers). It turned out to be 33 players for some reason cuz i couldnt decide, and i even mention who is following that bunch of players.
After that it's many Koreans, players like Billowy, Armani, Trust, Pet which don't really belong in Code S, others we don't know how active they are, but could be Tier 3 as well (Leenock, jjakji, Seed, Cure, Dream, Hurricane) and other didn't have the and some foreigners or foreign koreans (TRUE, Snute, uThermal, Kelazhur etc...)
edit: after realizing that the last PR was already 4 months ago, i guess it's a bit questionable to include all the results since then. (more a fault of going 4 months without it tbh) I will look at the results of the past 2 months now (anything below that seems to have not enough data) and change the list accordingly.
edit2: next edit will happen after Inno vs Solar edit3: ok final list after the ssl finals
My assessment is a mix of past results as far back as IEM World Championship (with some depreciating value attached to older results, of course), and the most current results.
Controversially missing the cut would be aLive, ByuN and GuMiho. If I had to choose between the three, aLive gets the nod over them.
Not sure why ByuN figures so highly on other people's list. Sentimentality perhaps? Results wise, he just hasn't done enough at all this whole year. Didn't go far in IEM and Super Tournament. And his recent form in SSL and GSL hasn't been great too.
GuMiho is capable of picking off a top scalp or two, but his results hasn't translated into deep runs (except for GSL now). He's quite similar to aLive, with the only difference being that aLive had a string of deep runs earlier this year (and his SSL record ain't too shabby too). Having a good H2H against top players is credible, but ultimately what matters result-wise (to me) is winning tournaments, or coming to close to winning (ironically in the case of my No. 1 choice).
You must be a really huge Scarlett fan, but I'm sorry to say that under any objective measurement of skill there's absolutely no way Scarlett should be there instead of INnoVation, ByuL, Solar, or aLive. It's not even like she won some big tournament yesterday and showed she was in the form of her life (maybe she is but we have no way of knowing).
I'd be curious to hear your reasoning behind putting her at #10 though.
You must be a really huge Scarlett fan, but I'm sorry to say that under any objective measurement of skill there's absolutely no way Scarlett should be there instead of INnoVation, ByuL, Solar, or aLive. It's not even like she won some big tournament yesterday and showed she was in the form of her life (maybe she is but we have no way of knowing).
I'd be curious to hear your reasoning behind putting her at #10 though.
Hey! You're getting on him for Scarlett, but you both have Dark on your lists.
He doesn't even deserve top 3 of the Zergs atm let alone a spot in the top 10 among players. Middling results in SSL Premiere. Still never been past GSL ro16. Still absent from VSL. Only narrowly edged out ByuN in the Super Tournament. IEM WC is his only great result this year and that was some time ago.
You must be a really huge Scarlett fan, but I'm sorry to say that under any objective measurement of skill there's absolutely no way Scarlett should be there instead of INnoVation, ByuL, Solar, or aLive. It's not even like she won some big tournament yesterday and showed she was in the form of her life (maybe she is but we have no way of knowing).
I'd be curious to hear your reasoning behind putting her at #10 though.
Hey! You're getting on him for Scarlett, but you both have Dark on your lists.
He doesn't even deserve top 3 of the Zergs atm let alone a spot in the top 10 among players. Middling results in SSL Premiere. Still never been past GSL ro16. Still absent from VSL. Only narrowly edged out ByuN in the Super Tournament. IEM WC is his only great result this year and that was some time ago.
"Middling" achievements as they may be, Scarlett has not done any better by a clear margin.
There's an arguable case for Dark to make Top 15, but not Scarlett (even Top 20 seems a stretch).
I have no Heart, so let's make an objective one. The only tournaments that matter and that Ever mattered are korean tournaments and the only thing that matter now is what happened quite recently, so let's just look at the RecenT events. I am not sure How good the VSL thing is and it's not really progressed far enough to be useful.
The Best and crucial and whatever tournament Has been always GSL, Which however isn't done.
Here we easily get 8 players in two tiers depenending on How they did in Ro8:
As for the SSL, I still consider it rather Less important, because of the format, but it comes in handy because it gives us
tier 3: INnoVation, Solar and ByuL
from playoffs, puting us to 11 players, so ByuL is gonna clearly bite the dust Here. Now How do we order those players? Let's Try ordering players in each tier by SSL results, because what else do we have?
You must be a really huge Scarlett fan, but I'm sorry to say that under any objective measurement of skill there's absolutely no way Scarlett should be there instead of INnoVation, ByuL, Solar, or aLive. It's not even like she won some big tournament yesterday and showed she was in the form of her life (maybe she is but we have no way of knowing).
I'd be curious to hear your reasoning behind putting her at #10 though.
Hey! You're getting on him for Scarlett, but you both have Dark on your lists.
He doesn't even deserve top 3 of the Zergs atm let alone a spot in the top 10 among players. Middling results in SSL Premiere. Still never been past GSL ro16. Still absent from VSL. Only narrowly edged out ByuN in the Super Tournament. IEM WC is his only great result this year and that was some time ago.
"Middling" achievements as they may be, Scarlett has not done any better by a clear margin.
There's an arguable case for Dark to make Top 15, but not Scarlett (even Top 20 seems a stretch).
brb lemme go sit down for a couple hours and think of the most accurate tier list i can come up with
Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
In theory i shouldn't count the lists who got posted after the deadline, but i think a few more aren't too bad which is why i will give you another 8 hours from now on.
Time to post a list:
On June 13 2017 22:01 opisska wrote: Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
I mean technically it could happen, but yeah i think you are right.
On June 13 2017 22:01 opisska wrote: Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
If you wind back the clock to Ro4 of GSL Season 1, I wouldn't have put Ryung and sOs into my Top 10 as well.
A single deep tourney run is a fantastic feat, but can be due to factors such as bracket luck, favourable matchups, rare burst of form, etc.
Consistency matters. Classic is in my Top 10 because he has also played well in SSL Challenger. Gumiho isn't, because he got knocked out early on. As an example.
(Let's hypothetically say Maru beats soO in the finals. They both beat Dark in their Ro16 group. Given a chance, Dark could've beaten all the other 6 quarter-finalists. Yet, due to the bracket, he would be automatically demoted below them just because he had the bad luck of meeting the Top 2 in the world. Being a bit hyperbolic here, but you get the point - that it's hard to rank the best players just based on how deep they ran in one tourney alone.)
On June 13 2017 22:01 opisska wrote: Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
If you wind back the clock to Ro4 of GSL Season 1, I wouldn't have put Ryung and sOs into my Top 10 as well.
A single deep tourney run is a fantastic feat, but can be due to factors such as bracket luck, favourable matchups, rare burst of form, etc.
Consistency matters. Classic is in my Top 10 because he has also played well in SSL Challenger. Gumiho isn't, because he got knocked out early on. As an example.
(Let's hypothetically say Maru beats soO in the finals. They both beat Dark in their Ro16 group. Given a chance, Dark could've beaten all the other 6 quarter-finalists. Yet, due to the bracket, he would be automatically demoted below them just because he had the bad luck of meeting the Top 2 in the world. Being a bit hyperbolic here, but you get the point - that it's hard to rank the best players just based on how deep they ran in one tourney alone.)
"The list should reflect your opinion on the current strength of players."
Current is now. There is no Proleague, so the only real tourneys are GSL and SSL and if we are talking about anything "current", then the last season of GSL was centuries ago. If you do a single deep run in GSL this month, it means that you are a top player of this month.
On June 13 2017 22:01 opisska wrote: Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
GuMiho is like Ryung last season, in the Ro4 because of bracket luck and TvT alone. He has to beat a lot more non-Terrans than Trap or ByuL to be a top 10 player in my eyes.
On June 13 2017 22:01 opisska wrote: Many of these ranks posted here miss at least one of the Ro4 players of the current GSL. If you think being in the Ro4 of GSL doesn't make you at least top 10 of the world right now, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.
I have them all in mine, but I could see why some might of left 1 or even 2 off. Some might be taking everything into account since the last power ranking which would also include IEM, GSL s1, and VSL s1.
You also have to consider the path of each of those runs. A ro4 in the GSL isn't exactly what it used to be. Frankly, I think SSL is the harder league and should hold a tad more weight here. GSL only has prize money and legacy going for it.
For example, Ryung made the ro4 last season and even a ro8 prior to that. Both of those runs involved favorable brackets for him. He dodged a lot of the top-tier Ps and Zs.
Or look at sOs who made a ro4 last season by beating: Curious, Billowy, Bunny, Keen, and herO. Yet, in SSL Premiere he was battling Zest for the bottom spot.
Someone needs to make up for the fact that lots of people have him in their top 3 even though he's been playing like ass and not even winning half his matches recently.
Not a rank, and hence no labeling, but I decided to post the records for the last 3 months of all the players who were frequently mentioned. Data is from Aligulac and only includes offline games vs Koreans. Again, I don't think this is a good way to rank the players, just some background info.
I know most people would rank TY much lower, however, I am quite serious about putting him first. Ranking on being able to win a tournament is slightly different from ranking on the ability to have the highest winrate, which is again different from the ability to play a game with the highest skill. Though the differences are subtle, I find the last one the most important and thus my ranking is based on it.
Let me try to explain what I mean. Let's say you assign a number 0-100 on how well a game was played. 0 would be absolutely no action within the game, 5 would be a bronze level player,... all the way to 100 which would be game theory optimal perhaps achieved by some sort of AI in the future. (i.e AlphaGo was probably close to 100 in Go.)
Let's say that a great but still Tier2 player like aLive plays around 50 and someone Tier1 like Classic around 70.
Some players - such as Innovation - are very consistent, have solid mechanics, and their performance will be always something like 75, but rarely under or above. They will thus almost always beat the Tier 2 players and will have a great win percentage against even the Tier1.
However, I think that the range of TY's play would be something like 65-85. Because it is so varied, he has much lower winrate against the Tier2 players but can have a relatively higher rate against the Tier1 players.
This variance can be for multiple reasons, in his case mostly because of tilting/mental problems. In his the GSL finals against Zest, the first game was a unique occasion of an 85 or even 90 play, virtually no other player could ever achieve. It would be hard to advise to Zest what should have he done to win that game. However, because of his poor mentality, the last games were just terrible, like 40 (i.e accidentally building a second Factory instead of Starport.) Of course, he lost which is a big defect, but it would be much simpler to advise what should he do next time. The same thing happened many times; i.e the reverse kills in past two ro8 of the GSLs.
Playing this badly on occasion would not happen to Innovation, but I dare to say that also it would not happen to him to achieve the nearly perfect 90 play TY has showed many times. If I were to show someone 3 individual games in LotV in which the highest skill was showcased, all of them I am thinking of, would've been wins by him. If he fixes the mental problems and lowers the variance towards the higher end, he has the ability to be a bonjwa, which most people don't. I would same similar themes apply to Life or Isildur1 in poker; they all had big swings in performance, but the high point was higher than of all the rest.
Any list which gets posted after this comment won't be considered though. I have to cut it somewhere You can expect the overall ranking in the next two days
On June 14 2017 09:17 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans are overrated these days. I think next two months might shake up how people perceive the power ranks.
Not sure why you would think this....Scarlett and MajOr have not exactly been putting on amazing shows against the top Koreans.
Foreigners have always been able to compete with mid-level Koreans. Never has any foreigner managed to demonstrate that they are truly the equals of any top Korean player (by which I mean consistent and across all matchups, of which Neeb was neither).
In any case GSL vs the World should give us ample evidence on how the current foreigners stack up against Korea's finest.
On June 14 2017 09:17 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans are overrated these days. I think next two months might shake up how people perceive the power ranks.
Not sure why you would think this....
I blame Solar showing up at WCS finals and playing like he thought he had a free pass out of the group stages. If he gets of that group in second, then basically we just say that a few Koreans still need to adapt to the different PvP meta but Koreans are still strong.
On June 14 2017 08:50 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ok you two are still fine because i say so
Any list which gets posted after this comment won't be considered though. I have to cut it somewhere You can expect the overall ranking in the next two days
You beat me to the "TaeJa disagrees" comment, but said more or less what I was going to so it's all good.
On June 14 2017 09:17 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans are overrated these days. I think next two months might shake up how people perceive the power ranks.
Not sure why you would think this....
I blame Solar showing up at WCS finals and playing like he thought he had a free pass out of the group stages. If he gets of that group in second, then basically we just say that a few Koreans still need to adapt to the different PvP meta but Koreans are still strong.
Yeah, 2016 was a good year for foreigners vs Koreans. But since then we've had WESG, NationWars, and foreigners knocked out in the Ro32, so I'd say Korea has reasserted itself fairly well.
Still, it will be good to see what happens to Neeb/Scarlett/MajOr/other foreigners in GSL Season 3 and GSL vs the World.
On June 14 2017 09:17 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans are overrated these days. I think next two months might shake up how people perceive the power ranks.
Not sure why you would think this....
I blame Solar showing up at WCS finals and playing like he thought he had a free pass out of the group stages. If he gets of that group in second, then basically we just say that a few Koreans still need to adapt to the different PvP meta but Koreans are still strong.
Yeah, 2016 was a good year for foreigners vs Koreans. But since then we've had WESG, NationWars, and foreigners knocked out in the Ro32, so I'd say Korea has reasserted itself fairly well.
Still, it will be good to see what happens to Neeb/Scarlett/MajOr/other foreigners in GSL Season 3 and GSL vs the World.
Humans are extremely capable and practiced at ignoring information that contradicts their preferred narrative. If you're someone who has been annoyed at all the hype of Koreans and you finally have a glimmer of evidence that they're not gods to everyone else's mortals, you're not giving that up without a fight.
On June 14 2017 18:10 Crovear wrote: 2 year old lurker, firt time poster. Just wanted to make myself heard because people are obviously in love with Maru and forget how aLive is a monster
I'm a fan of how the list turned out in the end considering how flat the top of the SCII pyramid has been over the last few months. And soO is second as ordained.
WOW, savage play there Viper. Only the two new in the ranking are shown with no big trophy (even if Solar is seen winning big anyway)... and soO. Not cool! :p
On June 15 2017 05:45 AbouSV wrote: WOW, savage play there Viper. Only the two new in the ranking are shown with no big trophy (even if Solar is seen winning big anyway)... and soO. Not cool! :p
The truth is i didn't find soO's kespa cup win instantly so i gave up And solar, well i thought this one isn't that bad (even though you don't see his face i guess :O)
I think we will see foreigners in the next IEM, which in itself will be much harder than getting into code S (not counting Chinese players)., even before Korea vs World.
On June 15 2017 08:10 Kafka777 wrote: I think we will see foreigners in the next IEM, which in itself will be much harder than getting into code S (not counting Chinese players)., even before Korea vs World.
All the IEM qualifiers are on KR server which means I wouldn't bet on most of the European pros participating let alone win anything. Neeb, Scarlett, Elazer and a few others are in Korea so there's a chance, but it seems rather slim.
EPT
Dark (101 pts) and 
GuMiho ⇔ NEW![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/e/e5/Gumiho_IEM_katowice2017.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/a/a4/Solar_2014DHStockholmWin.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://teamexpert.de/images/galeries/blizzcon/20161106_Helena-Kristiansson_BlizzconSC2_2002.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/2015/nssl/season1_winner_fp.jpg)
herO ⇘ 1![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/1/1b/HerO_2015StarleagueS3Final.jpg/420px-HerO_2015StarleagueS3Final.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Olli/TYpressconference.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/1/17/Classic_IEM_Shenzhen_2015.jpg/600px-Classic_IEM_Shenzhen_2015.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img4.cache.netease.com/game/2017/3/27/201703271650020c013.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6BJSt9CMAArIR1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://static.mnium.org/images/contenu/actus/sc2/innovation_gsl_2015_s3_champion.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8v55g0d.png)
but I am interested in your reasoning. Have I missed some good games from him? I thought he even looked shaky in his GSL group that Trap should have edged him out of. 
