EPTThe end result, are the games any more fun to play now than they were before?
A Eulogy for the Six Pool - Page 2
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
The end result, are the games any more fun to play now than they were before? | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On April 02 2017 04:44 Olli wrote: FYI: not an April Fools joke. I would have expected you to have written it. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
The most unfun games I played in hots generally were the ones where I lost to gambling oponent, I'm glad that victory is now more based on skill and less on luck. I don't have to deal with all those players who only knew how to dt rush, or could only exicute the same orcles Allin evrey single game. The game now properly rewards macro play, and aggression is now appropriately difficult to exicute, I no longer see 80 apm players in high masters who only Allin evrey game and that's a good thing. Honestly I found hots protoss to be the most frustrating part about hots. Every game I loaded in vs Protoss I wondered which one of the 20 Allin builds they planed to cheese me with. Than i would have to scout the whole map because people loved to proxy all there tech, even robos to try to force you to guess there build rather than being allowed to scout it. often as Terran you had no way to know what Allin was coming so you would usualy have to make blind guesses about what your oponent was doing, often these guesses would decide if you won or not. This interaction often felt awful for both sides sometimes I would build 3 bunkers or 3 turrets anticipating correctly, my opponent would call me a hacker and leave emediatly, other games I would not have the right deffense and I would atomaticly lose the game to void ray busts, or dt allins, or proxies immortals, or fast orcles or Blink Allin, or 7 gate Allin . I understand the ops opinion, in tournaments this made the game poker like with people cooly calculating there oponent's move. But on ladder it just made the game very arbitrary sometimes. I was often able to take down masters Terran with my off race by just gambling correctly one day I even limited myself to winning games with 60 apm or less. I would exclusively cannon rush or proxy blink Allin and I was able to win 70% of my games. No I don't want to back to the times on ladder where victory or defeat was often decided by flipping a coin, | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 02 2017 03:25 BronzeKnee wrote: Amazing article. And the result really isn't surprising due to the way Blizzard has pigeoned holed units into the game. Blizzard didn't want early aggression to be effective (outside of a number of specific worker killing units/strategies), so early aggression was nerfed in every way possible in LOTV. And the problem with this approach is that is pigeon holes strategy... "Want to kill SCVs? Build an Oracle!" The result is stagnation and the removal of the best part of the game in my opinion, creative builds. A second base is just about free in LOTV, so you might as just well start with a second base. It is nearly a false choice to not expand. Perhaps the worst result and most damning evidence of the incompetence of Blizzard, is that with less builds and less variety, balance should be better than ever. But it isn't. It's time for David Kim to go. I always wonder if you realize a team of people balance SC2. David kim is just the guy they throw in front of the camera. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 02 2017 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: Don't really agree. It's not strategic depth but a coin-flip because you have to make potentially game-deciding decisions before having the opportunity of gathering information. PartinG losing a GSL because he guessed wrong in game 7 was bullshit. I disagree with this. Part of the strategy side of starcraft is knowing what your opponent can do, and you have to play to that. I open hatch first every ZvP, and don't scout my natural. I'm fully aware there could be a cannon building in the fog of war, but I choose to ignore that possibility go ahead for the hatch first. If I lose from here, it's not because of a coin flip. In all my ZvPs in LotV, I've been cannon rushed maybe a dozen times, out of hundreds of games. I didn't lose a coinflip, my opponent played the expectation that I wouldn't scout for a cannon rush, and I played the expectation that I wouldn't be cannon rushed. That's not not a coin flip, that's playing the game. | ||
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 02 2017 06:41 IMSupervisor wrote: Wouldn't it be more fair to compare the first year ot LotV to the first year of HotS when looking at diversity of strategy? It certainly would be more fair. However their argument would be greatly diminished if all their example of strategic diversity turned out to be hellbat drops. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On April 02 2017 06:41 InfCereal wrote: I disagree with this. Part of the strategy side of starcraft is knowing what your opponent can do, and you have to play to that. I open hatch first every ZvP, and don't scout my natural. I'm fully aware there could be a cannon building in the fog of war, but I choose to ignore that possibility go ahead for the hatch first. If I lose from here, it's not because of a coin flip. In all my ZvPs in LotV, I've been cannon rushed maybe a dozen times, out of hundreds of games. I didn't lose a coinflip, my opponent played the expectation that I wouldn't scout for a cannon rush, and I played the expectation that I wouldn't be cannon rushed. That's not not a coin flip, that's playing the game. Maybe rock paper scissors is a better way to describe it than coinflip. Still I don't want to have tournaments decided by rock paper scissors which is mostly luck. Yeah I guess you can mindgame someone who takes rock 3 times in a row by choosing scissor (surely he won't go rock 4 times in a row, right)) but this is not what I'd like to see from an RTS game. And your approach doesn't work for competitive players because your opponents would analyze your build and just cannonrush the shit out of you until you learn. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 02 2017 07:03 Charoisaur wrote: Maybe rock paper scissors is a better way to describe it than coinflip. Still I don't want to have tournaments decided by rock paper scissors which is mostly luck. Yeah I guess you can mindgame someone who takes rock 3 times in a row by choosing scissor (surely he won't go rock 4 times in a row, right)) but this is not what I'd like to see from an RTS game. And your approach doesn't work for competitive players because your opponents would analyze your build and just cannonrush the shit out of you until you learn. I think you just proved his point there. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On April 02 2017 05:26 BronzeKnee wrote: So it isn't a coin flip at all. That is the kind of decision making that is present in every game, including LOTV (if I build an Oracle and without knowing I have a Stargate you place a Widow Mine in your mineral line, that isn't a coin flip, as Bill Belichick says, something might just not look right). The problem is that LOTV has removed a lot of the decision making from the game, and that is why it is stale. this isn't comparable because vs an oracle you have the opportunity to gather the required information to deflect the attack. if you lose to a not scouted oracle you did something wrong beyond guessing wrong (not scouting the stargate). | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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iopq
United States948 Posts
On April 02 2017 06:24 washikie wrote: Frankly I'm glad some allins are somewhat dead. I do definitely miss some of the low Econ situations hots created but I also don't mind not losing to blink Allin 8 games in a row because I had a minor positional error. That's exactly what skill is. A good player doesn't make those positional errors. He runs away until he can CRUSH every blink stalker. You just keep on engaging and bleeding units. If you take out things that take decision making, positioning, macro, micro out of the game, what is left? | ||
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LtCalley
United States244 Posts
i truly believe the 12 worker start ruined the game. i honestly don't know why i still play | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On April 02 2017 07:59 iopq wrote: That's exactly what skill is. A good player doesn't make those positional errors. He runs away until he can CRUSH every blink stalker. You just keep on engaging and bleeding units. If you take out things that take decision making, positioning, macro, micro out of the game, what is left? By positional error I mean ohh I thought he would blink into my main but nope went into nat gg. Honestly once agian it's more of a guessing thing stopping the pre netf hots blink Allin is not like stoping drops wher if you split your army well you don't take damage because splitting up means death. You mostly had to guess where he would blink/ where his army is on most maps back than. Most Korean terran's could not position to deal with it and that's why only Maru survived in gsl that season. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On April 02 2017 07:03 Charoisaur wrote: Maybe rock paper scissors is a better way to describe it than coinflip. Still I don't want to have tournaments decided by rock paper scissors which is mostly luck. Yeah I guess you can mindgame someone who takes rock 3 times in a row by choosing scissor (surely he won't go rock 4 times in a row, right)) but this is not what I'd like to see from an RTS game. And your approach doesn't work for competitive players because your opponents would analyze your build and just cannonrush the shit out of you until you learn. It can be coinflippy though depending on the ballance of a matchup. Genneraly things are more coonflippy and you have to take more chances if your race is on a clock in a specific mu. In hots often times once p got the perfect deathball they would just win. Period so you always had to choose to be safe va cheese but be to far behind to win if your opponent did not cheese or be vunerable to cheese but have enough units and tech to do the dmg you had to do to prevent the opponent from getting the right deathball togeather. If you guessed wrong you would frequently lose. I'm talking about pre mine but tvp once mine got adjusted build diversity went down a bit and it was more reasonable to hold allins or put your own pressure on. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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Brett
Australia3820 Posts
On April 02 2017 05:26 BronzeKnee wrote: It isn't a coin filp. It is a skill. The Patriots won a Superbowl believing the Seahawks were going to throw a slant based on their formation and the number of timeout Seattle had (Seattle was on the 1 yard line with the best rushing offense in the NFL, everyone thought they would run the ball). The Seahawks did throw a slant, and the Patriots intercepted the ball and won. But it wasn't randomness, it was preparation and calculated risk taking. But if the Seahawks didn't throw a slant and made their formation look like it, they might have been able run the ball in easily, and win the Superbowl. So it isn't a coin flip at all. That is the kind of decision making that is present in every game, including LOTV (if I build an Oracle and without knowing I have a Stargate you place a Widow Mine in your mineral line, that isn't a coin flip, as Bill Belichick says, something might just not look right). The problem is that LOTV has removed a lot of the decision making from the game, and that is why it is stale. You have to micro, have to macro, but the behind the scenes is significantly diminished. The preparation and build order planning, the skill I brought to Starcraft, was beating my opponent with preparation before the game began with unique build orders behind the scenes It's sad that I can't do exactly what Sun Tzu says all warfare is based on: deception, in a strategy game! I used to like to make it look like I'm taking a third and throw an all-in at you. Or make it look like an all-in while I take a hidden base. It forces you to scout, react, and think, not just mindlessly macro and micro. But while you're thinking on your feet, I'm executing a game plan I made long before the game. And that is how I won a lot games in WOL, by out thinking my opponent because I'm not great at micro or macro. And that's why the Patriots win, behind the scenes the players are supported by a system that tries to understand what their opponent is going to do, and the counter it, before the game begins. And thus, the outcome of that play in the Superbowl, just like Parting's GSL 7 game, was decided before the game began. That isn't a coin flip at all. Stating it is disrespectful to the skill and preparation that goes on behind the scene. There is a reason we had so most repeat GSL Code S champions in the first year of the GSL, the most volatile of the all years in terms of gameplay. Starsense is real and a skill. Of course they are educated guesses, it would be retarded not taking into account the available information (opponent style, opponent strengths, your strengths, how opponent has reacted in similar situations in the past etc etc) in a competitive setting. But they remain a guess in SC because you cannot in many scenarios react to what you see until it is too late... and if you choose wrong the result is potentially dire, game-ending consequences. This is why people don't like it and see it as 'coin flippy'. I understand that you see value in it, to an extent I can too, but if every game of football was a single scenario where it's 4th and goal from the one yard line where you either win or lose on one play, I don't think it'd be quite so popular either. | ||
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FarmI3oy
United States255 Posts
Personally, I hope Blizzard never makes another RTS game again. Unless they take a look at what made RTS games actually fit the definition of REAL TIME STRATEGY. LOTV is so far gone from what made classic RTS games so damn good. Managing an economy in LOTV could be done by a monkey using an xbox controller. Defending against cheese builds is hardly a problem anymore, and neither is scouting for cheese builds. When pro players do not scout on a regular basis anymore, there is a problem with the game. | ||
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Aesthetician
20 Posts
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