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Right now there is a balance test map with its own ladder ment to provide feedback to blizzard, yet if they received data theyd be able to tell that TvP currently on EU is 100% them rushing to tempests
this is because once the tempest ability is in your mineral line the protoss virtually shuts down that base so now you are down a base to his three.
Now this should set off alarm bells because its impossible to miss, yet in david kims latest community feedback he states
"For the Tempest, we’d like to get some more feedback because it’s been a bit difficult to tell exactly how strong the fast-teching to Tempests route is. If it is a serious issue, we should definitely look into adding an upgrade or a cool-up time to the ability in order to nerf the time in which the ability hits the field."
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20749854921
The tempests hit your base at 5:00
http://drop.sc/replay/3792917
it does the damage equal to an oracle hitting a completely undefended base and lasts for 32 seconds on a 45 second cooldown from 13 range...
i had to literally stop quing because there is no way to beat this, and now david kim is postponing fixing it after he earlier told us he would make it an uppgrade?
This needs a hotfix!
you cant even get testdata relative to mech when this is in play as protoss winrate is 100% and the terrans dont get to test anything, and this isnt noticeable in your data you get from the map david kim?
what is going on here...
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Yea I'm not too sure why they need more information, play a few games vs Protoss or look on any thread regarding the test map and Tempests are heavily complained about, I'm one of those complainers lol the ability lasts WAAY too long and is WAAY too good at shutting down mineral lines, like this game really needs yet another unit that massacres economy T__T
I guess what I meant to say was, "Like this game needs yet another aerial unit that requires an extremely specific response or it's gg" like pretty much every other air unit in the game.
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Brood lords? So strong that they renamed the expansion Lings of Liberty because combined with Fungals was utterly unstoppable
Does anyone see a recurring theme here? It's not just Tempests (which the OP is totally justified in complaining about) it's just fucking air units in general. They are too damn strong, and they are especially too damn strong vs economy, a big part of what makes LOTV so punishing and oppressive to play at times.
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I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
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On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due.
I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2.
But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed.
Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine.
Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL?
Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys.
I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design.
When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F.
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On October 08 2016 03:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Yea I'm not too sure why they need more information, play a few games vs Protoss or look on any thread regarding the test map and Tempests are heavily complained about, I'm one of those complainers lol the ability lasts WAAY too long and is WAAY too good at shutting down mineral lines, like this game really needs yet another unit that massacres economy T__T
I guess what I meant to say was, "Like this game needs yet another aerial unit that requires an extremely specific response or it's gg" like pretty much every other air unit in the game.
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Brood lords? So strong that they renamed the expansion Lings of Liberty because combined with Fungals was utterly unstoppable
Does anyone see a recurring theme here? It's not just Tempests (which the OP is totally justified in complaining about) it's just fucking air units in general. They are too damn strong, and they are especially too damn strong vs economy, a big part of what makes LOTV so punishing and oppressive to play at times.
But if protoss has 100% winrate shouldnt david kim notice this immediatly from his data? what data are blizzard gaining from using a test map ladder if they do not notice this?
to me it seems like the only feedback they process is the ones given on the bnet or teamliquid forums, mech has enormous issues with air and its so easy to fix, all you have to do is remove say thor, lib or cyclone anti ground then make it an anti air exclusive unit and buff its range and damage so it rivals brood/carrier in AA DPS...
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32 seconds is way too long for a spell in sc2, its absurd.
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probably in david kims mind anything that has the potential to super shutdown an opponent is a nice new all in possibility to keep in the game, just like the nydus worm stuff. then he might buff one/some of the counters you can potentially do to that all in if you see it coming so that it doesn't come up and win all the time and just exist as a bluff end branch in the "meta"
maybe he thinks, if there is a lot of imba stuff in the game and its kinda random which one you go for / end up being able to counter, then there is more chance of achieving 50% on a large number of games^^ cause if the game is very random, the chances are more equal lol
it makes volatility because, you can't know whats in the fog of war always, and if you're just a few steps wrong you get burst a lot
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On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F.
The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate
The person playing is level 2.
Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses
So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50%
So you can be lvl 3 (bad) against protoss, level 1 (good) against terran and level 2 (same level) against zerg and you can see this in your opponnents MMR.
That is not 50%, if you face better terrans then yourself but same level zergs and worse level protosses this indicates that zerg would be stronger then terran but weaker then protoss for that player.
this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50%
Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter
Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps
so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still "50% winrate" for each race.
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On October 08 2016 04:13 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F. The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate The person playing is level 2. Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50% this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50% Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still 50% winrate for each race.
This is all true and well presented, I may have given the wrong impression with my wording, I merely meant that win rates are relatively stable but yes if you have Terrans that can't win end game vs ultralisks 50% of the time so they all in and win the other 50% of the time that definitely means the game is still imbalanced.
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On October 08 2016 04:26 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 04:13 FoxDog wrote:On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F. The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate The person playing is level 2. Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50% this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50% Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still 50% winrate for each race. This is all true and well presented, I may have given the wrong impression with my wording, I merely meant that win rates are relatively stable but yes if you have Terrans that can't win end game vs ultralisks 50% of the time so they all in and win the other 50% of the time that definitely means the game is still imbalanced.
No you got it right, thats what i ment all along
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The system works in a way that every race has about 50%, and that is generally true for players too.
Therefore, only indication of imbalance (or that some races are easier to do well with than others) is league distribution.
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2
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On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW.
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On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW.
I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver?
So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
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Well, right now it is true that the tempest rush is completely ruining my TvP experience. At least 90% of my games are exactly that.
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On October 08 2016 05:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW. I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver? So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
Oh air units are awesome in BW. My point is that air units are super weak though. Their usefulness was not so much the damage they could deal (excluding BC's and Carriers) but more their supportive powers.
Mutalisks die against any real anti-air in an equal fight. But they can move quickly and outmaneuver ground units if you have the APM. Corsairs are used for scouting, for hunting down overlords, but most importantly for discouraging the Zerg to go for mass mutalisks.
BC's and Carriers are the only air units in BW that were actually really powerful in terms of raw damage output. But they are hella expensive and take ages to build. They still get owned pretty bad by anti-air though unless they can exploit the terrain and their superior range.
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On October 08 2016 05:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW. I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver? So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
They were crucial units as you say, yes, but what RoomOfMush means is that they weren't "core" units that you can just mass up in a ball and have head-on large scale engagements with. Well, except for carriers, but those needed good positioning and serious micro to be really effective.
It's not like in SC2 where if you have 40 mutas and the toss only has 20 stalkers for anti air you can just go kill him.
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As a protoss I see no problem with this 
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Lol, I knew this would be what all the Protoss were doing every game once they tried it out ^_^. It's one of those things that is really hard to balance.
Actually if it really lasts for 32(!) seconds then you could probably cut the duration in half and it'd still be good against mech, maybe? But the problem of mineral line harass still remains.
But if he's buying a fleet beacon just to build one tempest to harass your mineral lines (lol) he's probably pretty susceptible to a timing attack...
My gut is telling me that even though it seems ridiculous there should be a way to fight around it! Investment in SG -> oracle (assuming) -> fleet beacon -> tempest + (tempest travel time if you didn't proxy) is quite a bit of money that could be invested in tech elsewhere for one unit that doesn't do much besides throw down mineral line balls, lol.
For the same price if scouted you should just be able to buy a pair of vikings and kill the tempest as it's walking over, lol, and if it's proxied you should obviously be able to shut the proxy down before he can get a fleet beacon and a tempest...
Just some food for thought, Protoss is pretty limited in tech when they do crap like this...
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I personally don't mind air armies just don't be afraid to counter air with air and you're good usually. Air armies are pretty fun in small numbers and besides, what kind of army comp is cool to play in mass anyway?
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While the tempest is a very strong unit in the PTR, and I agree it does need a nerf, lets not exaggerate too much.
As someone said earlier, it is a heavy tech investment that is punishable. The cost of getting it leaves protoss incredibly vulnerable.
Now if the tech is hidden, and protoss can easily mask the build, than we do have a problem here. Currently if you see an early fleet beacon, stop all tech/economy and go for a giant army to push immediately. One tempest will do very little against a large 40-50 supply army.
In this particular situation (fast tempest rush to harass mineral lines) I really don't see Tempests being that problematic.
Now in the late game, when Protoss can amass 6-8 Tempests that are protected by HT or disruptors or stalkers, then we have a real problem. The length and size definitely needs to be shrunken a bit.
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EPT
