On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact.
1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one).
Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control.
2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft.
3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro.
That's either an excellent piece of trolling or the post insanely idiotic post i've ever read on TL.
On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact.
1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one).
Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control.
2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft.
3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro.
That's either an excellent piece of trolling or the post insanely idiotic post i've ever read on TL.
Fairly sure it's a troll
what the OP is suggesting is what made BW great.
instead of caster units that have big impact, we have deathballs consisting mainly of bland high-hp amove units like marauders or roaches. this is horrible design, as intelligent people have been pointing out ever since WoL alpha
I think the main reason for not having deathball in BW was the selection group limit (and partially the pathing)
Playing protoss I feel most of my units have ability to micro manage or are spellcasters, so definitely during a battle I never micro perfectly (on the contrary, I always miss most of the micro I should do).. a perfect engagement where you micro ideally all you units seems reeeeeeally difficult even when looking at pros
stronger spells would do absolutely nothing in sc2. All the basic design decisions/ui limitations which made it work in bw are not in place in sc2.
I still hope that one day we will see a different pathing. Even if it doesn't change much gameplay wise (blizzard stated this, i personally doubt it's true) it would change the aesthetical part which is also really important for enjoyment.
David has no vision for this game anymore, he's just doing anything to maintain 50% win rates across the board and let the meta evolve how it does. It's not the worst approach to this game because ultimately balance is paramount, but it does feel limiting, like SC2 could be so much more.
The game still has tons of dumb issues as well that seem to be getting swept under the rug instead of brought to the forefront.
1. Tankivacs being in the game but the tank itself not being all that great 2. Aerial armies continue to force defensive play 3. All spell casters besides the High Templar suck (Vipers don't suck but they aren't great except vs mech) 4. Nydus is still a, "Lol I'm in your base" instead of a unit movement aid and do we really need more of those? Super medivacs, super Warp prisms, drop Overlords, SC2 is just becoming a drop fest. 5. Mech remains terrible and turtle mode 5 long years later, in fact with the stunted economy and addition of the Viper mech has pretty much never been worse, stifling composition changes for Terran. 6. Theres pretty much 20 + ways to kill 20 + workers in 20 seconds, David refers to this as "excitement" and "small skirmish" but I think we all know better then that. It's just frustrating to lower level players and anti climactic for the pro players.
On July 27 2016 00:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: stronger spells would do absolutely nothing in sc2. All the basic design decisions/ui limitations which made it work in bw are not in place in sc2.
Why do you think so? For example, the disruptor can be viewed as high impact spellcaster unit since you need to micro it in order to do the damage and opponent can micro to avoid the damage. And I would argue that it brought some really cool and tense moments into SC2, at least from spectators point of view. Or you dont agree?
I do not say that the disruptor design is ideal or that every spell should do big explosions of damage. But if you take it as an example of high impact spellcaster unit, you can certainly see how stronger spells affect the game.
High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
On July 27 2016 01:01 Beelzebub1 wrote: David has no vision for this game anymore, he's just doing anything to maintain 50% win rates across the board and let the meta evolve how it does. It's not the worst approach to this game because ultimately balance is paramount, but it does feel limiting, like SC2 could be so much more.
The game still has tons of dumb issues as well that seem to be getting swept under the rug instead of brought to the forefront.
1. Tankivacs being in the game but the tank itself not being all that great 2. Aerial armies continue to force defensive play 3. All spell casters besides the High Templar suck (Vipers don't suck but they aren't great except vs mech) 4. Nydus is still a, "Lol I'm in your base" instead of a unit movement aid and do we really need more of those? Super medivacs, super Warp prisms, drop Overlords, SC2 is just becoming a drop fest. 5. Mech remains terrible and turtle mode 5 long years later, in fact with the stunted economy and addition of the Viper mech has pretty much never been worse, stifling composition changes for Terran. 6. Theres pretty much 20 + ways to kill 20 + workers in 20 seconds, David refers to this as "excitement" and "small skirmish" but I think we all know better then that. It's just frustrating to lower level players and anti climactic for the pro players.
Sigh :/
well, i dont wna be annoying, but all of those points have been fixed in heptacraft
no tankivacs (worst idea ever) much better air-to-ground units making air units weaker very strong spellcasters real mech play thats engaging and interesting and an eco system that allows you to come back from worker losses
the key to fixing the siege tank is making its attack a projectile - therefore it will not smart fire, but overkill on units, enabling all the cool counterplay we saw in BW (zlot drops etc), and making it possible for a few tanks to be powerful without mass tank being unstoppable
extreme mech in hepta - keep in mind this is the most static of all 28 matchups, being dominion vs dominion, and cerberus drops have been nerfed since:
raiders vs raiders:
raiders vs covenant:
this is exactly what ppl have been asking for from sc2 mech for 6 years. maybe its time to realize it will never happen outside of mods.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
i have to disagree with you nazara - high impact spellcasters DO work with smartcasting - the key to making them work is make low hp infantry units scale up well in late game. this is why heptacraft has highly expensive late game upgrades like cloning vats (reduces cost of infantry by 50%) or drug resistance (permastim without any life cost)
this leads to constant engagements, as masses of cheap low-life units try to use mobility against massive dmg from aoe. of course this works in hepta because players have 5-6 bases in late game, so mobility actually matters, since you cannot just park your deathball at the entrance of your 3base corner... also, the upgradable supply limit does the rest, since it makes the amount of small units you can have just so much greater
The heptacraft seems fun, but I cant imagine what should be done so that Koreans and foreigner top players would switch to that. Its like completely new game.
On July 27 2016 01:56 Zedd wrote: The heptacraft seems fun, but I cant imagine what should be done so that Koreans and foreigner top players would switch to that. Its like completely new game.
does it matter if everyone switches or not?
its more fun to play its more fun to watch you can be part of the process to mold the gameplay - this is not my vision, this is ours its got its own ladder and tourneys what else would you want?
I would say it can be made work. Warcraft 3 is almost all about spell micro. Some spells are pretty gamebreaking if converted to starcraft. C&C series is all about powerful gimmicky units and goofy stuff. Dune 2 (or 1?) started it all with the Deviator tank, which projectiles were converting enemy units to your side. Empire Earth had strong heroes and hilarious nuke bombers. Warlords Battle cry series has strong heroes, advisors and also massable units with passive and active abilities.
So can this work in an rts game? Absolutely! It also work for Heptacraft, and I like it's done mostly through upgrades.
But. This is not what makes Starcraft, Starcraft. There is nothing wrong with trying a different formula for a sequel, as there are different rts tastes. Just lock up a passionate SupCom and a passionate Starcraft player in a room for 2 days and you will see how how different they are, judging by the amount of blood shed. If you change the game to go more into the direction of spells, you won't be able to call it Starcraft with a straight face.
I'm not trying to dissrespect your opinion. I like Heptacraft and if it was a seperate ip, I would pay for it and buy it. But I wouldn't change Starcraft 2 to go this way, because I don't think this is right for the ip. In fact I would remove half the spells if I could and make it more like BW.
On July 27 2016 02:05 Nazara wrote: I would say it can be made work. Warcraft 3 is almost all about spell micro. Some spells are pretty gamebreaking if converted to starcraft. C&C series is all about powerful gimmicky units and goofy stuff. Dune 2 (or 1?) started it all with the Deviator tank, which projectiles were converting enemy units to your side. Empire Earth had strong heroes and hilarious nuke bombers. Warlords Battle cry series has strong heroes, advisors and also massable units with passive and active abilities.
So can this work in an rts game? Absolutely! It also work for Heptacraft, and I like it's done mostly through upgrades.
But. This is not what makes Starcraft, Starcraft. There is nothing wrong with trying a different formula for a sequel, as there are different rts tastes. Just lock up a passionate SupCom and a passionate Starcraft player in a room for 2 days and you will see how how different they are, judging by the amount of blood shed. If you change the game to go more into the direction of spells, you won't be able to call it Starcraft with a straight face.
I'm not trying to dissrespect your opinion. I like Heptacraft and if it was a seperate ip, I would pay for it and buy it. But I wouldn't change Starcraft 2 to go this way, because I don't think this is right for the ip. In fact I would remove half the spells if I could and make it more like BW.
i know we have different design ideas of where to take the game
the sad thing is im fairly sure both of our directions are better than lotv TT
On July 22 2016 02:24 Charoisaur wrote: I like what I read but I think instead of looking into adept shade and warpprisms they should look into tempests. why would you nerf fun things that promote multitasking but keep boring turtly stuff in the game?
Tempests are necessary against turtly mass liberator styles, and in PvT you rarely if ever should go over 6 tempests anyways. Tempests are only a problem in ultra-lategame PvZ really.
Definitely, but 4 supply is silly and makes them massable. You only need a few to shutdown mass libs, not 20.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
I don't think what your describing is that much worse than losing your entire Mineral Line or getting doom dropped on your production. You will quickly learn to simply not move your army around in 1 hotkey, without solid reasoning and always scout ahead.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
And why exactly does high impact mean terrible terrible damage? Because it doesnt have to be as you describe it. React instantly? Why? A spell have to trigger instantly always? It doesnt.
Why not play wc3? Because its outdated with time. Was a great game before. Just like movies, some age well some age terrible.
I also believe smartcasting can have some devastating spells to work super well. Even in a game like sc2. One example: Storm. They dont stack. Could also make them work so if they are casted to close to each other, their effect gets diminished.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
And why exactly does high impact mean terrible terrible damage? Because it doesnt have to be as you describe it. React instantly? Why? A spell have to trigger instantly always? It doesnt.
Why not play wc3? Because its outdated with time. Was a great game before. Just like movies, some age well some age terrible.
I also believe smartcasting can have some devastating spells to work super well. Even in a game like sc2. One example: Storm. They dont stack. Could also make them work so if they are casted to close to each other, their effect gets diminished.
Your suggestion for spells are unique, but Blizzard likes to design spells that straight forward and uncomplicated. It makes the game easier to manage when spells are simple but devastating.
Don't get me wrong, I would love an rts game with spells that have such unique variables, diminishing returns, or other unique abilities.
Imagine if zerg units could merge together to make niche units? Like if a dozen lings survived you can merge them into a super ling. That ling has the ability to jump over obstacles, but can't jump to higher ground like blink or reapers. Or a hydralisk and roach could....
Or protoss spells can stack with diminishing return yet still net an advantage if stacked a little bit. Like a destructible FF that can stack the health but time only adds 2 seconds per extra FF. So one FF lasts 10 sec and has 200hp, two FF lasts 12 sec and has 400 hp.
I think an RTS can have spells/abilities that varying returns, but that RTS isn't SC2.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
And why exactly does high impact mean terrible terrible damage? Because it doesnt have to be as you describe it. React instantly? Why? A spell have to trigger instantly always? It doesnt.
Why not play wc3? Because its outdated with time. Was a great game before. Just like movies, some age well some age terrible.
I also believe smartcasting can have some devastating spells to work super well. Even in a game like sc2. One example: Storm. They dont stack. Could also make them work so if they are casted to close to each other, their effect gets diminished.
High impact means you need to respond to the spell and do something as soon as, because it has big effect - by definition. It doesn't have to be a damage spell. Imagine stasis, dark swarm, or spawn broodling with smart casting. If you don't react within seconds to the spell or the spellcaster approaching, your army is gone. If the spell doesn't force you to do anything as soon as it's casted then it has low impact. If both players have those devastating spells, then all micro will revolve around them.
If you water the spells down to accommodate for the smart cast, then the spell in and out of itself is no longer high impact. Storm is a joke. when was the last time you saw protoss skipping robo or stargate to chrono storm out? Exactly. Storm works only after you've build up your deathball to the point were core units can't all participate in the first second of the fight and you need that extra burst damage.
With the way units clump and units die thanks to how the dps in a small blob is concentrated, spells like disruption web or others would only cause the "look away for 2 seconds and you lost the war" syndrome. Without smart cast, the time depends on your opponent and it all scales better. Low lvl player will react slow to his army being attacked, but his opponent won't cast many spells in a short time frame. High lvl player will react fast when attacked or is more likely to spot enemy army on the minimal, but his opponent will also cast more spells. With smart cast and more of the bigger, badder spells, the games in diamond/masters will be more likely dependant on who made the mistake to look away at the wrong time, not who played better.
Having diminish returns on more of the same spell cast doesn't leave you with high impact spells but with spell juggling.
People, look what this game has become. So many spells, passive abilities, active abilities, immune to x tags (frenzy)... "x unit is up/ x unit is not microable enough" - bam, add ability to fix this. Adept - shade Immortal - barrier Disruptor - nova Reaper - grenade Cyclone - lock on Bc - teleport Liberators - transform Ravaged - bile Corruptor - piss All this just in lotv. Game is not dead. But it's a joke as a sequel to the game which had its own tv channel in a country. Game which was more then "esport". A sport.
On July 27 2016 01:35 Nazara wrote: High impact spellcasters don't work with smartcasting in an rts like starcraft. High impact means you need to react asap to the spell cast or your army is gone. Imagine more bw-like storm - 2.25 radius instead of 1.5 or 1.75 (don't remember now) and 112 damage all over the screen even in bronze league. Terrible, terrible damage. All your army dead because you left to make a supply depot or place a hatchery. Frustrating gameplay, but most unforgiving at lower levels (let's say below masters). Play 10-25 minute game and lose because you didn't pay attention for 2 seconds. I can't see people dying to play such a game on a regular basis.
Or, you could go Warcraft 3/MOBA way and introduce bazillion of passives, auras, spell galore but each without much impact in vacuum. But then why won't you go play wc3 or wait for wc4?
And why exactly does high impact mean terrible terrible damage? Because it doesnt have to be as you describe it. React instantly? Why? A spell have to trigger instantly always? It doesnt.
Why not play wc3? Because its outdated with time. Was a great game before. Just like movies, some age well some age terrible.
I also believe smartcasting can have some devastating spells to work super well. Even in a game like sc2. One example: Storm. They dont stack. Could also make them work so if they are casted to close to each other, their effect gets diminished.
High impact means you need to respond to the spell and do something as soon as, because it has big effect - by definition. It doesn't have to be a damage spell. Imagine stasis, dark swarm, or spawn broodling with smart casting. If you don't react within seconds to the spell or the spellcaster approaching, your army is gone. If the spell doesn't force you to do anything as soon as it's casted then it has low impact. If both players have those devastating spells, then all micro will revolve around them.
If you water the spells down to accommodate for the smart cast, then the spell in and out of itself is no longer high impact. Storm is a joke. when was the last time you saw protoss skipping robo or stargate to chrono storm out? Exactly. Storm works only after you've build up your deathball to the point were core units can't all participate in the first second of the fight and you need that extra burst damage.
With the way units clump and units die thanks to how the dps in a small blob is concentrated, spells like disruption web or others would only cause the "look away for 2 seconds and you lost the war" syndrome. Without smart cast, the time depends on your opponent and it all scales better. Low lvl player will react slow to his army being attacked, but his opponent won't cast many spells in a short time frame. High lvl player will react fast when attacked or is more likely to spot enemy army on the minimal, but his opponent will also cast more spells. With smart cast and more of the bigger, badder spells, the games in diamond/masters will be more likely dependant on who made the mistake to look away at the wrong time, not who played better.
Having diminish returns on more of the same spell cast doesn't leave you with high impact spells but with spell juggling.
People, look what this game has become. So many spells, passive abilities, active abilities, immune to x tags (frenzy)... "x unit is up/ x unit is not microable enough" - bam, add ability to fix this. Adept - shade Immortal - barrier Disruptor - nova Reaper - grenade Cyclone - lock on Bc - teleport Liberators - transform Ravaged - bile Corruptor - piss All this just in lotv. Game is not dead. But it's a joke as a sequel to the game which had its own tv channel in a country. Game which was more then "esport". A sport.
I always assumed high impact=big effect, meaning, you want to react to this as much as possible. And low impact=Low effect, meaning, not necessary to react towards this one as much~.
Just rougly explanations. So this explanation of yours=the litteral explanation? Or it comes from you? Or you just assume it?
Also, the example i did with storm wasnt the one from sc2. I just wanted to give a picture that SMARTCAST=CANT WORK WELL because i think it can if IMPLMENTED CORRECTLY.
YES i do know the spells in SC2 is boring and bad. I found the game itself REALLY BAD. But thats not the discussion and just because you show us that this is "true" or that you believe this is the case doesnt proof that SMARTCAST=CANT WORK WELL.
EPT
