EPTCommunity Feedback Update - July 21 - Page 8
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[PkF] Wire
France24232 Posts
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StorM_Sweden
Sweden45 Posts
so far advanced: 7 T, 4P and 1Z. still 2 groups left. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
- why do you propose to move from 4 to 6 supplies, rather than 4 to 5 to begin with? - why I don't see tempests massed or anyway abused in progames? (I'm talking mainly about DH Valencia, the latest shoutcraft and PL/GSL) maybe I just missed these games (it's very well possible  ), in which case if you could point me to these games I would be grateful !A part form this, I think a small nerf to the warp prism life wouldn't be too bad and may go in the right direction to limit adept allins (I'm not commenting on the balancing of the game wrt these allins - I don't have the competence - but I see how they can be not so fun to play against / watch from a spectator point of view) Thanks all ! | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On July 24 2016 15:42 xAdra wrote: Really? Doesn't protoss have a reputation for being the race with the most horrendously sneaky and "underhanded" tactics to kill opponents, such as DTs and Oracles? When did protoss suddenly become the race that gets f---ed the most? That was not at all the point of the post. The below is not intended as a balance complaint -- it is solely intended as a look into the mindset of lower-level players which is, yes, largely based off their perception of the game. Regardless of how "bullshit" you think certain strategies are, here's what LotV has looked like from a lower-level Protoss standpoint (as is pointed out in the above post): - Colossus replaced with a unit which is hard-to-control and easy-to-avoid - Warp-in heavily nerfed - Base design heavily modified - PvZ complete shit-fest for months with no mention anywhere - PO nerfed - Adept nerfed - Immortal (which was finally found as the answer to PvZ) nerfed - Colossus minutely buffed So, again, from a low-level Protoss standpoint, why would you continue playing that game? Protoss was never doing well at the low-level in HotS yet they've continuously gotten nerfs and are continuously complained about. At the highest levels, adept attacks are keeping Protoss afloat, but lower-level Protoss can't micro-manage well enough to be capable of pulling of an adept attack while still macroing appropriately at home to make it into the mid-game ahead. Again, it should be obvious why most of these lower-level players have quit playing the game: It started out the most-changed race from LotV (with three of their most-used mechanics: colossus, warp-gate, PO completely changed), it got continuous nerfs (and was ignored while doing poorly in one match-up), and the skill required to get to the mid-game ahead of the opponent is extremely high ... beyond the capabilities of most of these players. And there's much more ... a lot of Protoss players just used sentry all-ins versus zerg: completely nerfed by the addition of the ravager as well as the buffed adrenal making lings so much stronger in the late-game (so that zergs started building them more in the early-game and getting upgrades to continue making them); Liberators were added as the first-ever (in SC2) mid-game positional unit which forces Protoss players to counter-attack, delay by forcing sieges, and generally out-play their opponent by a huge margin simply to survive a push; etc etc etc. There's so much more difficulty and danger in LotV if the Protoss doesn't get a solid head-start on the game. Many of the things which are fought in the lower-leagues never show up in the higher-leagues because pro-players preempt their appearance by playing adept-heavy early games backed by heavy macro at home. The lower leagues, thus, perceive heavy imbalance against Protoss simply because they literally can not control things well enough to win ... and they know that they simply won't be able to because this is every pros' initial strategy: get tons of economic damage early and hope to win later on your roaring macro. | ||
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WidowMineHero
New Zealand143 Posts
1.remove liberator extra damage on light unit. 2.increase base damage and decrease splash damage. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On July 25 2016 21:09 VHbb wrote: Noob questions (I ask honestly since I'm not able to judge given I haven't played in months): I see many complaints about the tempests and their supply costs, so I have 2 questions: - why do you propose to move from 4 to 6 supplies, rather than 4 to 5 to begin with? - why I don't see tempests massed or anyway abused in progames? (I'm talking mainly about DH Valencia, the latest shoutcraft and PL/GSL) maybe I just missed these games (it's very well possible ), in which case if you could point me to these games I would be grateful !A part form this, I think a small nerf to the warp prism life wouldn't be too bad and may go in the right direction to limit adept allins (I'm not commenting on the balancing of the game wrt these allins - I don't have the competence - but I see how they can be not so fun to play against / watch from a spectator point of view) Thanks all ! 1. Because I don't think moving to 5 supply would be enough to discourage mass tempest spam. 2. Because the other races know mass tempest is broken and try to win before that. But the few times it has happened in pro games there was absolutely nothing the other player could do e.g. neeb vs snute. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24232 Posts
On July 26 2016 00:40 Charoisaur wrote: 1. Because I don't think moving to 5 supply would be enough to discourage mass tempest spam. 2. Because the other races know mass tempest is broken and try to win before that. But the few times it has happened in pro games there was absolutely nothing the other player could do e.g. neeb vs snute. Basically this. Even in PvP mass tempests with the immortals from the early game to protect the ground has no answer if you don't go air yourself, so that the guy who is late on the air transition usually has to bite the bullet and go for a massive all-in. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
The neeb vs snute game you refer to, from which tournament? | ||
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MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
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VHbb
689 Posts
 I feel sorry for Snute | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On July 26 2016 04:58 Tyrhanius wrote: Never seen a zerg winning vs Toss late game, like ever, but does someone have some vod/replay of Zerg winning late game ? Dark vs Stats g4 only game I remember | ||
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Zedd
Czech Republic107 Posts
1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one). Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control. 2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft. 3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact. 1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one). Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control. 2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft. 3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro. That's either an excellent piece of trolling or the post insanely idiotic post i've ever read on TL. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact. Here we have the problem with current Protoss design. Everything depends wholly upon its ability to have any impact whatsoever on the game. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3449 Posts
On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact. 1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one). Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control. 2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft. 3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro. I agree | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On July 26 2016 10:38 Zedd wrote: They should add more caster units/interesting spells in the game and make them have bigger impact. 1. It would make game more balanced in the long term since most games (on pro level) would be decided by amazing spellcasts or spectacular fails rather than just one unit compostition dominance over another one). Once you make game harder to control in this manner, pros couldnt say something like "I did everything right yet I lost in lategame since my race have no counter against enemy end game comp and I cannot do anything about it" because you could say "if you managed your casters better, you would have won" provided it would be impossible even for pros to reach skillcap for ideal control. 2. It would make game more appealing to watch, especially for spectators new into starcraft. 3. It would make the game more fun to low skill players as those always prefer to try some interesting micro/trick stuff than just boring practice of macro. that will never happen, and you know it. if you want no macro mechanics, more units, more spells, more of everything, and an economy system that actually allows comebacks and more than 3 bases at once, go play heptacraft the majority of games between players of roughly equal skill level in hepta play out like these ones - long, action filled games that use the whole map: i could post tons more, but you can just see them on my stream or watch reniehour - he has been streaming tons of hepta lately at http://twitch.tv/reniehour - watch and see what a 300 apm user can do with a game with more positioning and more casters this is a game thats not only way more interesting to watch, but more fun to play for both high-end and low players alike. it has its own ladder system and an active community - the only thing holding it back right now is the complete unwillingness for the majority of the foreigner sc2 scene to stop bitching and actually try something else. im hoping for koreans now... just because everyone got used to the game being fundamentally broken over the last 6 years doesnt mean it cant be improved, just means that blizz will never do it... | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On July 26 2016 21:27 summerloud wrote: that will never happen, and you know it. if you want no macro mechanics, more units, more spells, more of everything, and an economy system that actually allows comebacks and more than 3 bases at once, go play heptacraft the majority of games between players of roughly equal skill level in hepta play out like these ones - long, action filled games that use the whole map: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbUrPX811ww korean ex-pro reniehour has been streaming tons of hepta lately at http://twitch.tv/reniehour - watch and see what a 300 apm user can do with a game with more positioning and more casters just because everyone got used to the game being fundamentally broken over the last 6 years doesnt mean it cant be improved, just means that blizz will never do it... watch out it's starbow 2.0, ready to salvage the RTS genre | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 26 2016 11:41 JackONeill wrote: That's either an excellent piece of trolling or the post insanely idiotic post i've ever read on TL. Fairly sure it's a troll | ||
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