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On May 30 2016 11:41 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 07:42 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 07:29 Incognoto wrote:
Just in case some people didn't get it.
I'm not considering Maru GOAT.
I'm rooting hard for Maru and cheering hard because he has what it takes to become GOAT. He's super young, sure. He hasn't been the rising star like Life was, he hasn't been the bulldozer that Zest is.
He is however, incredibly consistent, perhaps one the most consistent progamers out there and he is also one of the scariest players out there when playing at peak level! Actually, when I think about it, Maru is probably the best player in the world at the moment. Do you remember the latest race rankings? For balance purposes, Korea believes, the strongest from all races on the top level are Terrans. Well, there is only one terran on the top and it is not TY. So if they say, Terrans are the strongest, they have one reason why to say that. The reason is him. wat how is it not TY?
His flair helps to explain it.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
I'd like a real argument for his case though.
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On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote:
No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne.
Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor.
Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches.
NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins.
MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional.
edit: Maybe I haven't been following the scene closely enough lately but I never really got the impression Zest was on an entirely different level. He first emerged on the back of PvP when Protoss was clearly the strongest race, then largely fell off when Protoss was weakened and the other races become relevant again. He seems to be doing really well right now for sure and has consistently been a top player, but I never saw him as a "Titan".
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On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though.
Guys, I am not sure, but ... are you serious? Now I am not sure :-)
I was quite joking in this thread when I mentioned Zest losing etc... but I acknowledge that Zest is one of the best players in the world in the moment. Before the nerf, he certainly was, so we will see soon if his PvZ did not get worse. But he is the no. 1 or no. 2 in the world, all jokes aside. sOs is far behind him in the moment and I hope, he will get over Zest again once.
But TY?
TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
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On May 30 2016 15:04 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote:
No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne.
Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor.
Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches. NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins. MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional.
this is not close to being true, mvp was favored vs mma in gsl October, and his loss to leenock in both November and at the end of the year were big disappointments. Mvp was the most dominant player and was expected to win pretty much everything except for the hiccup where be dropped to code a
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On May 30 2016 15:08 aRyuujin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 15:04 Pursuit_ wrote:On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote:
No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne.
Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor.
Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches. NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins. MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional. this is not close to being true, mvp was favored vs mma in gsl October, and his loss to leenock in both November and at the end of the year were big disappointments. Mvp was the most dominant player and was expected to win pretty much everything except for the hiccup where be dropped to code a
IDK, I didn't follow SC2 closely in early 2011 so maybe I just missed the period where he was really dominant, but by mid-late 2011 and through the rest of his relevant career he always felt like a bit of an underdog. He wasn't somebody you could count out entirely, but at the same there were always a few players with better mechanics, powerful / revolutionary new strategies and a massive hype train behind them.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
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On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
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On May 30 2016 19:10 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again. Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals: A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER. If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
Careful there, young Padawan. You're treading close to the Swag Side. Once you start down the swag path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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Nah that's more the Sack path. Swag was all about slumping into being GOAT between two games. Sack would deathride, though only Zest.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 30 2016 19:10 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again. Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals: A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER. If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress 
Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important 
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On May 30 2016 19:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 19:10 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again. Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals: A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER. If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree. BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important
No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-)
When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 30 2016 20:00 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 19:50 deacon.frost wrote:On May 30 2016 19:10 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again. Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals: A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER. If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree. BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-) When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score.
Damn, I should have used the threat reducing utility, I knew it!
I think this is the place for me to write - I don't agree and that's it
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On May 30 2016 20:06 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 20:00 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 19:50 deacon.frost wrote:On May 30 2016 19:10 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 16:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 30 2016 15:06 Diabolique wrote:On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I'd like a real argument for his case though. But TY? TY IS a LOSER! I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-) you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again. Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals: A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER. If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree. BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-) When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score. Damn, I should have used the threat reducing utility, I knew it! I think this is the place for me to write - I don't agree and that's it
HOW can you not agree??? You don't follow SC2??? :-P
Score against those TOP players (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, Classic, Dear, sOs) since 1/1/2016:
Zest 8:4
Maru 6:3
Stats 6:6
Dark 3:4
herO 3:4
sOs 3:7
TY 1:10
See the difference?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
its actually still possible to lose to every top player in proleague and still be considered a top player(life), plus I don't know about you but he did make it to the GSL finals even if his luck of opponents was great.
also, this isn't as important but maybe tone down the insults, how can I take you seriously when you're screaming out and berating TY for being a loser?
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On May 30 2016 20:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
its actually still possible to lose to every top player in proleague and still be considered a top player(life), plus I don't know about you but he did make it to the GSL finals even if his luck of opponents was great.
also, this isn't as important but maybe tone down the insults, how can I take you seriously when you're screaming out and berating TY for being a loser?
Sorry for the insult, but I did not understand, how don't you see his results:
Score against those TOP players (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, Classic, Dear, sOs) since 1/1/2016:
Zest 8:4
Maru 6:3
Stats 6:6
Dark 3:4
herO 3:4
sOs 3:7
TY 1:10
Of course, whenever was TY playing against a normal average, or a normal good player, he was often winning. Whenever he played against a really good player, he lost. It is so obvious ...
EDIT: and you know, I really like TY, he brought me the most points to my FPL team in season 1. But then, I watched him and he was losing, losing and losing ... even in China in the Koreans vs Foreigners event. He was often losing to mediocre players and ALWAYS(-1) against top players. And I would agree, he is Terran no. 2 in the world. But this no. 2 is way down below the top players ... he could be something like the number 10 in the world now ...
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Austria24422 Posts
This is not where you debate Maru vs TY.
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So much zest in here. Zest topic best topic!
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I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
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On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote:
I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？
so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
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EPT
