Have you ever wondered why the radius of the actual Defender Mode field was slightly larger than the placement indicator? Or why the Balance Test Map field looks so much smaller than before? That is because before the 3.2.0 patch, the effective radius of the Liberator's Defender Mode field was 5.5, not 5. The placement indicator was 5 range, yet the actual field was not.
With the 3.2.0 patch, one of the unlisted changes was reducing Liberator's field radius from 5.5 to 5.0, effectively reducing the range of the entire field by 1. If the Balance Test Map change were to go through, the field's radius would effectively be reduced from 5.5 to 4.0, a 27% reduction.
Most importantly, if the Balance Test Map change goes through, then the total surface area of the Liberator's field would be reduced by 47% - practically halved since before 3.2.0 patch.
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In the trials, Supply Depots were used to measure the Defender Mode fields. Each Supply Depot is 2x2 squares, therefore in one direction it would account for 2 range.
(I apologize for poor image quality and low graphics settings in-game. With the 3.2.0 patch, the extents of the Liberator field are now more obscure as well.)
The 4 radius placement indicator matches the 4 radius field correctly.
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Fun Facts
* Because the radius of the field, pre 3.2.0, was 5.5; and the range of the Defender Mode spell is 5 - it must mean that the effective range of an unupgraded Liberator is 10, not 10.5. This is because .5 range of the field is UNDER the Liberator.
* Full Liberator Range per Patch and Upgrade -
Pre 3.2.0 - Unupgraded Range: 10. Upgraded Range: 14.5. Field Radius: 5.5. Field Surface Area: 380. (100%)
Post 3.2.0 - Unupgraded Range: 10. Upgraded Range: 14. Field Radius: 5. Field Surface Area: 314. (82.6%)
Balance Test Map - Unupgraded Range: 9. Upgraded Range: 13. Field Radius: 4. Field Surface Area: 200. (52.6%)
* You can try out the old Liberator by watching a pre-3.2.0 replay with Liberators in it, and taking control of a player to whom the Liberator belongs.
On April 02 2016 14:08 Warcloud wrote: So are ultras just supposed to be unkillable or?
This is a good question I agree, but I still think it is debatable in the late late game. Ultralisks become utterly useless in the late late game when there is a mech / Sky Terran composition.
Doesn't this remind anyone of the kneejerk reaction to nerf EMP and Snipe during the Wings of Liberty era? Or the totally uncalled for nerfs to the Thor after someone won a few tournament matches with it? A terran lategame unit gets used often and no one is asking for a nerf, yet Blizzard smashes the unit to oblivion with a massive nerfhammer.
I think it was an accident Now they fixed it not "nerf" I like the nerf direction for liberator.If -1 radius was too much then maybe they will tweak it into 0.5 or + 1 cast range.
On April 02 2016 18:21 Loccstana wrote: Doesn't this remind anyone of the kneejerk reaction to nerf EMP and Snipe during the Wings of Liberty era? Or the totally uncalled for nerfs to the Thor after someone won a few tournament matches with it? A terran lategame unit gets used often and no one is asking for a nerf, yet Blizzard smashes the unit to oblivion with a massive nerfhammer.
it reminds me more of when they nerfed the widowmine splash radius by 60% while compensating it with a .2% tank attack speed increase.
Even though they did fix the extra range of the Liberator with the 3.2.0 patch, it is important to consider that our perception of balance of this new true 5 field radius liberator is skewed. Considering that LotV has been around for 4 months(excluding beta), that means we've had the 'wrong' 5.5 radius Liberator for 4 months. Thus this fix also qualifies as a nerf.
4π × 5.5^2 = 380 4π × 5^2 = 314 314 / 380 = .826
The new 'fixed' liberator has 17.4% less surface area than the old one. That's significant.
EDIT:
On April 02 2016 17:15 Cascade wrote: Did you test this for the actual shots as well? Will it not shoot a stalker that it would have shot at pre patch?
I am glad you brought this up. There is no way for me to have both of the Liberators in the same game, as I have to go to an older replay and take control of it in order to use the old Liberator. Subjectively, it looks to me as if both of the Liberators attack targets in a similar fashion in relation to units entering the field.
I admit it is possible that this was, while misleading, an entirely cosmetic change and none of the attack parameters were changed.
Well I am concerned since the moment you take away the strenght in the liberator you remove the last fighting power in Terrans late game arsenal vs Protoss. If Protoss do not have to fear the liberators, I say we are taking a huge step back towards HoTS where Protoss can expand twice of an oracle, then play camping game for a few minutes, take a fourth and have a completly unstopable army.
The Terran Bio ball is so much worse (Marauder nerf) and Protoss Gateway units are way stronger due to Adepts (and the Immortal-change).
Changing the liberator the way Blizzard has suggested leaves me wondering where Terrans strenght in TvP is going to be with worse harass, no splash / heavy hitters and a much weaker late game.
On April 02 2016 17:15 Cascade wrote: Did you test this for the actual shots as well? Will it not shoot a stalker that it would have shot at pre patch?
I am glad you brought this up. There is no way for me to have both of the Liberators in the same game, as I have to go to an older replay and take control of it in order to use the old Liberator. Subjectively, it looks to me as if both of the Liberators attack targets in a similar fashion in relation to units entering the field.
I admit it is possible that this was, while misleading, an entirely cosmetic change and none of the attack parameters were changed.
Can you line up scvs next to the supply depots, and see if you can target them?
People complained about the disco lights on the ground though. That's why they look the way they do now. So they can't overdo it.
Yeah, that was a bit too much. nonetheless, the new one is far (faaaar) too subtly display of something that will one or two-shot most of your units when you walk into it. It kindof has to go back to the thickness it had before, and why not colour it by team while you are at it. But no need for all the clutter inside the circle after the zone is up.
Good observations, well explained. However, I do wonder why you are using the surface area of a sphere (4π × r^2) as opposed to the surface area of a circle (π × r^2). Liberation zone is a flat, 2D circle on the ground and is not a sphere. Not that it really matters in terms of the percentages you present of course (since it's a flat 4x multiplier), I just wanted to point it out
perhaps the shape should be a slight Oval, and not a circle (if thats even possible). This way the total surface area could be increased, while decreasing the range of the liberator.
one of the biggest weaknesses of the liberators since it's been introduced is that god damn UI indicator of it's range.
it's the same problem with siege tanks (to some extent) range being easy to see, on steriods: so freaking easy to tip toe around the range when you know exactly where it is... also the same problem with scanner's radius being easy to see for the opposing player who has DT's running around in your base.
just putting this out there because i think in the context I just laid out the greatly reduced effective radius just makes it all the more hideous -_-
The "hard to spot" liberator ring is an improvement. Why? because we cant see the attack range of zerg/protoss units either. We cant even see a burrowed lurker. but a mine? yes , including attack line etc
On April 05 2016 06:57 weikor wrote: perhaps the shape should be a slight Oval, and not a circle (if thats even possible). This way the total surface area could be increased, while decreasing the range of the liberator.
This isn't a bad idea. By changing the shape you can control the range (important for harass strength) and area (important for direct battle) separately. Maybe I'd make it a half circle or some kind of cone or whatever. But I like this concept!
Just spent a few minutes digging into the Liberator in the editor.
One thing that is weird that may not be realized here. The radius of the defense mode ability doesn't actually determine whether or not a unit is in range. Instead, any unit that enters the lib's attack radius receives a hidden behavior, which lasts for about 0.3 seconds. Only units having this behavior can be attacked by the liberator. So conceivably a unit that has been outside of the 5.0 radius can still be attacked by the liberator until the 0.3 seconds runs out.
i can confirm that the search area effect for the liberator's anti ground attack is indeed now 5.0 radius however:
On April 05 2016 09:19 TheFish7 wrote: Just spent a few minutes digging into the Liberator in the editor.
One thing that is weird that may not be realized here. The radius of the defense mode ability doesn't actually determine whether or not a unit is in range. Instead, any unit that enters the lib's attack radius receives a hidden behavior, which lasts for about 0.3 seconds. Only units having this behavior can be attacked by the liberator. So conceivably a unit that has been outside of the 5.0 radius can still be attacked by the liberator until the 0.3 seconds runs out.
i can confirm that the search area effect for the liberator's anti ground attack is indeed now 5.0 radius however:
Playing zerg i have noticed something like this, you can escape the radius but still lose your unit even befroe the lib fires its other shot.
On April 05 2016 08:45 BeStFAN wrote: one of the biggest weaknesses of the liberators since it's been introduced is that god damn UI indicator of it's range.
it's the same problem with siege tanks (to some extent) range being easy to see, on steriods: so freaking easy to tip toe around the range when you know exactly where it is... also the same problem with scanner's radius being easy to see for the opposing player who has DT's running around in your base.
just putting this out there because i think in the context I just laid out the greatly reduced effective radius just makes it all the more hideous -_-
Its so easy to walk around the range because the unit is a fucking monster. You accidentally step into range or have a unit push another unit into range and its dead. No other single unit is that unforgiving or even close. It has to have some form of drawback.
On April 05 2016 09:19 TheFish7 wrote: Just spent a few minutes digging into the Liberator in the editor.
One thing that is weird that may not be realized here. The radius of the defense mode ability doesn't actually determine whether or not a unit is in range. Instead, any unit that enters the lib's attack radius receives a hidden behavior, which lasts for about 0.3 seconds. Only units having this behavior can be attacked by the liberator. So conceivably a unit that has been outside of the 5.0 radius can still be attacked by the liberator until the 0.3 seconds runs out.
i can confirm that the search area effect for the liberator's anti ground attack is indeed now 5.0 radius however:
This would also explain the bug they had at the start, where liberators could shoot in other liberators zones.
On April 05 2016 08:45 BeStFAN wrote: one of the biggest weaknesses of the liberators since it's been introduced is that god damn UI indicator of it's range.
it's the same problem with siege tanks (to some extent) range being easy to see, on steriods: so freaking easy to tip toe around the range when you know exactly where it is... also the same problem with scanner's radius being easy to see for the opposing player who has DT's running around in your base.
just putting this out there because i think in the context I just laid out the greatly reduced effective radius just makes it all the more hideous -_-
Its so easy to walk around the range because the unit is a fucking monster. You accidentally step into range or have a unit push another unit into range and its dead. No other single unit is that unforgiving or even close. It has to have some form of drawback.
yeah;
despite my grievances with the peculiarities that disadvantage me as a player that obviously has an interest in making it easier for my opponents to fuck up;
the unit itself is not a very enjoyable one to have in the arsenal. even though it's quite strong it's not very rewarding to use. even though it's strong it's frustrating to use, and honestly it's comical how quickly it kills shit.
it's the same kind of feelings i have towards the all army button and the worker counter above command centers: as a player it helps me out a lot to have these things but it gives no joy.
the liberator is a permanent addition to SC2 at this point and that does not make me happy
On April 05 2016 08:48 PinoKotsBeer wrote: The "hard to spot" liberator ring is an improvement. Why? because we cant see the attack range of zerg/protoss units either. We cant even see a burrowed lurker. but a mine? yes , including attack line etc
That's because there's only one unit in those races that can one shot a 100/50 unit like the hydra: the disruptor.
You can easily see the disruptor shots. It's easier to spot them than the lib freedom circle.
Honestly, as Zerg I really feel that the problem with Liberator is more its AA attack rather than its ground to air. For protoss, as I do not play this race, would a nerf of Libs AA allow to transition toward Colossi in late game?
On April 05 2016 18:02 Vanadiel wrote: Honestly, as Zerg I really feel that the problem with Liberator is more its AA attack rather than its ground to air. For protoss, as I do not play this race, would a nerf of Libs AA allow to transition toward Colossi in late game?
the problem with colossus isn't liberators, it's the colossus itself
On April 05 2016 18:02 Vanadiel wrote: Honestly, as Zerg I really feel that the problem with Liberator is more its AA attack rather than its ground to air. For protoss, as I do not play this race, would a nerf of Libs AA allow to transition toward Colossi in late game?
Funny enough Collossi are actually decent vs Libs (even if they can't attack them) because sometimes protoss can use them to poke at buildings/bio units from outside the freedom circle.
On April 05 2016 06:03 dani` wrote: Good observations, well explained. However, I do wonder why you are using the surface area of a sphere (4π × r^2) as opposed to the surface area of a circle (π × r^2). Liberation zone is a flat, 2D circle on the ground and is not a sphere. Not that it really matters in terms of the percentages you present of course (since it's a flat 4x multiplier), I just wanted to point it out
It DOES matter, I was just reading his formulas and it made my eyes bleed.
On April 05 2016 06:03 dani` wrote: Good observations, well explained. However, I do wonder why you are using the surface area of a sphere (4π × r^2) as opposed to the surface area of a circle (π × r^2). Liberation zone is a flat, 2D circle on the ground and is not a sphere. Not that it really matters in terms of the percentages you present of course (since it's a flat 4x multiplier), I just wanted to point it out
It DOES matter, I was just reading his formulas and it made my eyes bleed.
As long as it scales with the square of the radius it doesn't matter. No one cares how many square blizzard units anything is. People only care that it is 1.5x or 0.7x as large.
On April 05 2016 21:08 ihatevideogames wrote: So, is Blizzard basically telling us we're not allowed to play macro games as Terran?
Troll accounts shout be banned.
Because I said something you don't like, I'm a troll?
It just feels this way in LOTV. Both toss and zerg lategame comps are extremely hard to deal with for terran. I may be trash at the game (low dia) but it's still a fact at every stream of high level player I watch.
EPT
Now they fixed it not "nerf"
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XoGWv04.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ocFaNlh.png)
