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A look at Co-op Zagara

Forum Index > SC2 General
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tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-21 07:54:42
March 17 2016 08:02 GMT
#1

[image loading]
I didn't find a carbot animation about Zagara, so i made this after Carbot Animations, (click on the link to watch the baneling video)


Zagara, is a queen the rules supreme, playing her in co-op is like touching smooth silky velour. She has a way of having very simple and elegant mechanics all while gliding over the opponets. She makes injects easy giving extra larva and similar to Zap Brannigan, she will win by sending wave after wave of her own brood to keep her ally safe.

Mechanically she practically playes herself. The select all army is easy to use with her. I do suggest hotkeying zagara as well. Basically you create a wave of units and push all at once. Aberrations look goofy but buff your units and allies so they are great for increasing survivability and scourge are rediculous anti-air. She's a great hero for brand new starcraft players and achievement grinders. The only challenge really is to get her roach drop acheivement which isn't that hard with a Vorazun teammate. As zap Brannigan says, "when i'm in charge every mission is a suicide mission."
----------------------------
Opener build-

*Fast baneling into expand with zergling speed.
+ Show Spoiler +

9 pool 0:52
10 gas 1:10
10 queen 1:25 (use the first queen for no injects until after 3 creep tumors)
10 overloard 1:40
12 4 triplets of lings to break rocks
18 baneling nest 2:20
18 second queen 2:33 (inject twice with this queen)
Metabolic boost
20 hatchery 3:05
28 Lair 3:45
5:20 Finished droning with 4 gases started
5:40 corrosive acid (I usually do this first since banelings are free and this makes them stronger)
3 evos 6:00
hive 7:20
2 Scourge colonies 7:50
Simplified genome when these finish. (Makes the scourge super cheap)

*Unlike my other two guides i didn't really try to optimize the build at all.

Usually about 10 minutes I start an overseer if i don't have one.
----------------------------------------------

Leveling-
Zagara leveling is pretty easy-
At level 6 you already unlock the key upgrades needed to beat almost all compositions on brutal.
-3 injects give double larvae. really makes it easy to do the whole level with 2 queens and 3 hatcheries for all the production you'd ever need.
-4 Simplified genome Saves a lot of gas so you can get all the core upgrades for banes, lings, scourge and zagara.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

-6 Shredding claws, the broken ling upgrade
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

9 protective cover which makes aberations not just tank hits but help lings.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

-10 the key upgrade for getting the zagara Roach acheivement
-12 swarmling-Saves a ton of money getting 3 lings instead of 2 for the same cost.
-14 splitters, banes have waves of damage.

[image loading]

All Levels-
+ Show Spoiler +

1-Relentless Swarmer- Zagara has a 100 supply maximum, but her combat units cost less and morph faster. Drones morph in pair (1/2 supply drones)
2-Infested Drop- Zagara can call down roaches with timed life to any location on the map. Drop-Pod deal damage on impact.
3-Inject Larvae- Increase the larvae from the queen's spawn larvae from 4 to 8.
4-Scourge Upgrade Cache- New Research Available on the Scourge Nest
*Virulent Spores- Scourge deal 50% of their attack damage in a small area on death.
*Simplified Genome- Reduces the amount of vespene gas required to morph scourge by 50.
5-New Unit: Bile Launcher- Unlocks the ability to morph drones into a bile launchers, defensive structures that deal area damage to ground and air targets.
6-Zergling Upgrade Cache- New research available on the spawning pool
*Hardened Carapace- Zerglings gain +10 maximum life.
*Shredding Claws- Zergling attacks reduce the target's armor for 10 seconds.
7-Baneling Nest:Birthing Chamber- the Baneling nest will periodically spawn free banelings.
8-Incubate Banelings- Abberations spawn 2 banelings when killed.
9-Evolution chamber Upgrade Cache- New Research Available at the Evolution chamber:
*Medusa Blades- Zagara's attacks deal area damage, splashing to enemy units near her primary target.
*Protective Cover- Aberrations grant +2 armor to units positioned beneath them
10-Darken the Skies- Increases the number of roaches spawned by Zagara's infested drop ability from 10 to 20.
11-Baneling Nest upgrade cache- New research available on the baneling nest:
*Increases the banelings base attack damage against the primary target by 100 percent; Splash damage remains the same
*Baneling Blast Radius increased by 50%
12-Zergling Evolution:Swarmling- upgrades zerglings into the swarmling strain
Fast melee unit that spawns in groups of 3. Morphs almost instantly and morphs into banelings.
13- Bile Launcher:upgrade cache-
* Increases the range of the bile launcher's Bombardment.
* Reduces the cooldown of the bile launcher's Bombardment.
14-Baneling Evolution: Splitter- Upgrades banelings into the splitter strain
Suicide unit deals damage over a small area upon death. Splits into smaller units as it dies.
15-Broodmother- Reduces the energy cost of Zagara's baneling barrage and spawn hunter-Killers abilities by 50%. Increases the nubmer of unit spawned by Zagara's baneling barrage and spawn hunter-Killers abilities by 50%.


----------------------------------------------
Choosing transitions and upgrades-

Most people would argue you are doing the same thing as zagara every game. This is actually true for the most part. Basically there are only 2 styles. Why 2? The comvaputer has the possibility of going mass banelings as well. In which case you want to make a pack of queens to help soak damage against banelings. The rest of the time, its just going to be grinding a single style.

Bile launchers don't really do that much damage, you can build them play around with them, but they won't really win you any games, you have to control them. They don't have much damage but a large splash area. I usually just skip them and their upgrades.

Usually for me I like to rush a few upgrades all just to be more cost efficient as soon as possible-
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


I usually skip scourge nest carapace until I have all the other zergling, baneling, abberation and zagara upgrades.

------------------------------------------
Zagara and the Roach Rampage Acheivement.
Zagara is a playable character in co-op.
Her two most powerful abilities are
[image loading]
[image loading]
And the baneling barrage is useful for picking off buildings and spawn Hunter-killers is great for the early air waves
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]


A good solid combo is usually to push in with aberrations and scourge, drop the infested drop in their army where the aberations are headed, use the mass frenzy once they drop. Rush in with the rest of your units, then spawn hunter killers where you need extra dps and antiair.

Tips on getting the roach drop achveivement.
1. Tell your ally you are grinding it and try to coordinate the attacks.
2. Vorazun voidray ally is easiest against lings or terran bio.
3. The aberations increase survivability of the roaches

Combo- before the infested drop comes off cooldown, trade out the zerglings from some buildings. (so you have no lings)
Once the infested drop comes off cooldown with a vorazun ally, usually push in with zagara and aberrations. have vorazun use the black hole. Infested drop on the black hole, Kill the units and have vorazun kill the biuldings with void rays, then have the vorazun use the time stop once you start taking damage. micro the Roaches to kill the units. After each wave goes off the timer, build and army to push and while its building, check the achivements in game. If you do it right you should gain about 35-50 each time. Just keep track of what levels and which compositions you are having the most success.

Avoiding building lings on the push with vorazun helps a lot to get the acheivement.

------------------------------------------
Ideal Late game composition-
The strongest army is centered around the scourge, banes, zerglings and aberrations. If you are playing against large air units like bc's or carriers, you can just make a 6-8 corruptors as well and 2-3 queens.

[image loading]

Full Image Album on IMGUR With all Zagara's Abilities

Here's gameplay I did playing her just so you can see what it looks like.
+ Show Spoiler +

Sample game against bcs Added a few corruptors in the composition



Zagara is relatively easy to play and probably one of the most user friendly in the game. You can use select all army and just after about 10 minutes focus on keeping a consistent composition. Her army allows her to push on all fronts and defend. Mostly you just want to wait for the army to spawn and ball before each fight, see what was lost and then try to build back to the ideal composition. The only thing that can be a challenge is the achivement to get 100 roach kills with an ally. I recommend doing that with a vorazun teammate after level 10. Just grind out a few games until you play against a zerg and sync Vorazun's time stop with the drops.
Good luck!
Smile
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
March 17 2016 12:13 GMT
#2
Love your guides! They've been very helpful.

Just a side note: the picture for shredded claws is the same as the genome one
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
March 17 2016 15:11 GMT
#3
I have difficulties with her achievement, killing 100 units with the roaches in a single mission
Tried it like 10 times to no avail

I think this ability is too weak, cooldown should be reduced and/or roach count increased (to like 15/30), and/or roaches buffed

Other than that Zagara is a monster, almost as OP as Vorazun

Wish they gave her 200 supply cap at the level 16 if it ever comes out
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
March 17 2016 15:12 GMT
#4
And it would also be nice to have an autoattack on the bile launchers - come on, Swann and Karax have their OP defenses, why Zagara can't have them too?
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
March 17 2016 16:13 GMT
#5
On March 18 2016 00:11 Ganseng wrote:
I have difficulties with her achievement, killing 100 units with the roaches in a single mission
Tried it like 10 times to no avail

I think this ability is too weak, cooldown should be reduced and/or roach count increased (to like 15/30), and/or roaches buffed

Other than that Zagara is a monster, almost as OP as Vorazun

Wish they gave her 200 supply cap at the level 16 if it ever comes out

The Roach achievement is one of the more difficult ones, but no where near the level of grinding for like Swanns Gas achievement. I would recommend finding a partner, and just keeping exiting and leaving until you get a zerg opponent. You will have better luck with a Zerg AI due to the amount of units.

I think a 200 supply buff should be later on (assuming if they added more than 1 or 2 levels.) It really would be a big jump in power for 1 level, even with the time it would take to gain XP. Maybe 20-25 range IMO.

On March 18 2016 00:12 Ganseng wrote:
And it would also be nice to have an autoattack on the bile launchers - come on, Swann and Karax have their OP defenses, why Zagara can't have them too?

I would like Auto attack on biles. But Zagara really is not a defensive player (both in theory and in practice) . The only time I ever even bother using them is on the train mission and very selectively on defense (temple) missions. Most times, Banes and scourge with ling and aberrations support to clean up is usually enough.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
March 17 2016 20:29 GMT
#6
Yeah I agree Zagara is an attacker, not a defender

But she has the bile launcher, and even an upgrade set for it, so why not make it a little bit more user-friendly?
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
March 17 2016 21:15 GMT
#7
On March 17 2016 21:13 29 fps wrote:
Love your guides! They've been very helpful.

Just a side note: the picture for shredded claws is the same as the genome one


Thanks man!! good looking out! To keep the quality up on these! I fixed it! Sorry the picture took a a bit longer to make so i couldn't do this in the 5 hours i had allotted for it.

On March 18 2016 00:11 Ganseng wrote:
I have difficulties with her achievement, killing 100 units with the roaches in a single mission
Tried it like 10 times to no avail

I think this ability is too weak, cooldown should be reduced and/or roach count increased (to like 15/30), and/or roaches buffed

Other than that Zagara is a monster, almost as OP as Vorazun

Wish they gave her 200 supply cap at the level 16 if it ever comes out


Yeah good observations, I agree the Bile launchers are cumbersome to use. I picked up the achievement on the second try so I didn't make a video for it. I decided to list what my gameplan was and add a bit on Zagara which helps to strenghthen the guide. Thanks for the feedback and help! My ping is over 300 to EU east or I'd offer to help you get the achievement.
Smile
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
March 17 2016 22:13 GMT
#8
For Zagara achievement, I chose train level. If I got Terran or Protoss opponent, I just played and won like normal. If I got a zerg, I would roach rampage on train waves. If you roach rampage on top of units, I think it kills the units that it drops on top of and those kills count.

It took a few tries because I would mess up and lose Zagara at the most inopportune times and miss entire train waves

This one may be the hardest achievement out of all of them.


200 Supply Zagara would be way OP unless every commander has a super OP L16 ability. She's already ridiculously OP with 100 Supply. I find her almost as ridiculous as Vorazun. Even more so if it weren't for Black Hole
Trucy Wright is hot
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
March 18 2016 11:15 GMT
#9
Thanks for the advice guys, will keep trying

Why not make Zagara even more OP than she is now? It's not competitive, you can make any commander OP
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
March 18 2016 21:36 GMT
#10
I hear a lot of people talking about how bile launchers could use auto-attack, but that'd make Zagara instantly better at defending than Karax or Swann. The bile launcher fires a 75 damage pie-plate that's basically a Psi storm except it does damage instantly and has a delayed impact. It also has 20 range and a 3.5 second cooldown with the upgrades. That's much better than Khaydarin Monoliths, Siege Tanks, and Lurkers for the cost. The only thing stopping Zagara from winning any defensive map by just spitting out 30 bile launchers is the micro requirement.
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
March 19 2016 19:11 GMT
#11
but what\s the difference between spamming 30 bile launchers + some crawlers and spamming 30 khaydarin monoliths + some energizers + some photon cannons and spamming 30 devastation turrets + some tanks + some missile turrets?

or spamming 30 lurkers + some spore crawlers?
don't tell me it's the cost - any commander has a ton of free resources mid-late game
why not, it's a fun mode
by the way bile launchers can miss, that's a disadvantage
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
March 19 2016 23:23 GMT
#12
I'm with Xsyq on bile launchers. They already do way more damage for their cost than pretty much any unit in the game, including all of Karax's and Swann's defensive structures. They're the only structures that can pretty much wipe out a massive swarm of hard-hitting enemies in seconds. And lurkers may be comparable in destructive capabilities, but they cost a ton of gas, which Kerrigan is always struggling with (at every point in the game) and they can't hit air. Auto-hitting bile launchers would pretty much make any defensive map with Zagara trivial, and would make her a better defensive hero than Karax, which would be pretty silly. Simply put, it would be way too OP.
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
April 04 2016 13:59 GMT
#13
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
April 04 2016 14:04 GMT
#14
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


its not hard. find a vorazun teammate and micro the roaches.
Smile
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
April 04 2016 15:14 GMT
#15
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


With no micro or Vorazun teammate helping, I got over 100 roach kills. Here's what I did.

Pick the train level (as someone said above).
Check the right side of the map for creep.
Play normally/quit if it is protoss or terran. Get ready for action if it's zerg.
If they send lings, you can get the achievement easily. If they send roaches, play normally or quit.
On train waves, you can burrow lings on the track for vision and drop the roaches on top of clumps of lings. Use frenzy (or whatever that 'E' ability is that makes them attack faster) and kill stuff. Killing broodlings from broodlords counts, I think.
You only have enough time for 3 roach drops, so you need to average about 33 kills. (I actually got 100 with 2 drops; not exactly sure what happened)
I think I used them on the 3rd, 5th, and 7th train waves. Basically, use it on the train wave after the cooldown is over.


Alternatively, you can play with a friend on Lock and Load. Get rid of all the enemies, but don't activate the locks (just don't put both people there). Use roach drops on the incoming waves and/or enemy bases. Press F9 and check your status.



4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
April 05 2016 15:39 GMT
#16
On April 04 2016 23:04 tokinho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


its not hard. find a vorazun teammate and micro the roaches.

Well it's not hard for you

I didn't get it even on the chain of ascension, (the map virtually without a time limit), after I had mined out my main

I mean yes it's possible to get the achievement eventually, but it's so much harder than any other achievement of any other commander that they just need to fix it

In my opinion at least
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
April 05 2016 15:55 GMT
#17
On April 06 2016 00:39 Ganseng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2016 23:04 tokinho wrote:
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


its not hard. find a vorazun teammate and micro the roaches.

Well it's not hard for you

I didn't get it even on the chain of ascension, (the map virtually without a time limit), after I had mined out my main

I mean yes it's possible to get the achievement eventually, but it's so much harder than any other achievement of any other commander that they just need to fix it

In my opinion at least


I don't know. I could go through it with you. I've helped 3 people do it. All of them within 2 tries. We could do it in less than half an hour.
Smile
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
April 05 2016 17:31 GMT
#18
On April 06 2016 00:55 tokinho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:39 Ganseng wrote:
On April 04 2016 23:04 tokinho wrote:
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


its not hard. find a vorazun teammate and micro the roaches.

Well it's not hard for you

I didn't get it even on the chain of ascension, (the map virtually without a time limit), after I had mined out my main

I mean yes it's possible to get the achievement eventually, but it's so much harder than any other achievement of any other commander that they just need to fix it

In my opinion at least


I don't know. I could go through it with you. I've helped 3 people do it. All of them within 2 tries. We could do it in less than half an hour.


thanks, but you said your ping to Eastern Europe is very high

I think I'll better wait for a patch =)

See, you admit yourself that you have to help people get it, and I assume you're pretty good at the game =)

Seriously, there is something wrong with this achievement
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
April 05 2016 20:43 GMT
#19
I got the roach achievement on the train map against terran. It may be hard now because two of the terran compositions go big heavy units, but they can still get bio. It helps if you aggressively go after the armor upgrades, to help keep them alive, use frenzy right after you drop the roaches, and buffer them with lings. You may be afraid that the lings will steal all the kills, but they should get your roaches more kills by keeping them alive. Also drop the roaches on top of the incoming wave, I'm pretty sure that does damage.

Yes, it's the hardest achievement. (I actually find this one comparable to Kerrigan's leaping strike achievement, since you almost always want to use psionic shift instead of leaping strike, and not doing the former can often get you in big trouble.) There is always going to be a hardest achievement, I find nothing wrong with that. If they made it easier, as per your request, then there would be a different hardest achievement. Would they have to nerf that too, to level it with the others? At what point do you become happy with the unavoidable asymmetry?
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 01:48:33
April 06 2016 01:22 GMT
#20
On April 06 2016 02:31 Ganseng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:55 tokinho wrote:
On April 06 2016 00:39 Ganseng wrote:
On April 04 2016 23:04 tokinho wrote:
On April 04 2016 22:59 Ganseng wrote:
So I got all the co-op achievements except for the roach one =(
Even the banelings one!
With other commanders, I got the single-mission achievements without even being aware of their existance
And here, I tried and failed so many times
Of course I could have played better, and many players did manage to get the achievement
But if it works easily with 6/7 commanders, and works so hard with the 7th, something is wrong with the commander and not only with the player!

Does anybody else feel they need to patch the roaches? Like decrease the cooldown and increase the life time?


its not hard. find a vorazun teammate and micro the roaches.

Well it's not hard for you

I didn't get it even on the chain of ascension, (the map virtually without a time limit), after I had mined out my main

I mean yes it's possible to get the achievement eventually, but it's so much harder than any other achievement of any other commander that they just need to fix it

In my opinion at least


I don't know. I could go through it with you. I've helped 3 people do it. All of them within 2 tries. We could do it in less than half an hour.


thanks, but you said your ping to Eastern Europe is very high

I think I'll better wait for a patch =)

See, you admit yourself that you have to help people get it, and I assume you're pretty good at the game =)

Seriously, there is something wrong with this achievement


I don't think that is going to happen soon. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. saying that i've helped people to udnerstand how to get it is really weak evidence for that claim...... I usually ask people who are level 15 what they are trying to do. I have helped people with a lot of achievements, mostly the swann/kerrigan ones. I am 100% sure that Blizzard doesn't patch this one. Everyone I've helped has been as described above, except i do it on rifts of korhal.(and just have them check the count and explain how to improve on it while in game. you can do ti with the first big wave before killing the second set of rifts, then the counter waves in the next area and you still have 1 more to spare if you just wait.


Yes, it's the hardest achievement. (I actually find this one comparable to Kerrigan's leaping strike achievement, since you almost always want to use psionic shift instead of leaping strike, and not doing the former can often get you in big trouble.) There is always going to be a hardest achievement, I find nothing wrong with that. If they made it easier, as per your request, then there would be a different hardest achievement. Would they have to nerf that too, to level it with the others? At what point do you become happy with the unavoidable asymmetry?


Ye i thought the kerrigan one is harder.
Smile
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
April 06 2016 13:09 GMT
#21
I don't know guys
I'm ok with the fact that one achievement is harder than the others
But I'm not ok with the fact that 6/7 are elementary, really effortless, and the 7th remains unaccomplished after 10+ dedicated tries
Maybe i'm just terrible, don't know. Zerg is my least favored race
But the Kerrigan achievement was effortless, although Kerrigan is much harder to play than Zagara. At least for me
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 13:17:58
April 06 2016 13:12 GMT
#22
It really buffles me that the numbers don't seem wrong to anybody
1st drop at minute 10, then 5 minute cooldown, then only 30s lifetime
Compared to say warbots:
1st drop min 4
Then 4 min cooldown
Then 60s lifetime

I know roaches deal damage upon the impact, but it doesn't even out the deficit
And the dps:
6 warbots * 15-21 / 1s = 90-122
20 roaches * 16 / 2s = 160
Deduct armor, losses, and the range factor, and the warbots will even outdamage the roaches
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
April 06 2016 13:14 GMT
#23
Zagara is incredibly strong in general, but the roaches are just a joke
At least in my hands =(
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
April 06 2016 23:37 GMT
#24
On April 06 2016 22:12 Ganseng wrote:
It really buffles me that the numbers don't seem wrong to anybody
1st drop at minute 10, then 5 minute cooldown, then only 30s lifetime
Compared to say warbots:
1st drop min 4
Then 4 min cooldown
Then 60s lifetime

I know roaches deal damage upon the impact, but it doesn't even out the deficit
And the dps:
6 warbots * 15-21 / 1s = 90-122
20 roaches * 16 / 2s = 160
Deduct armor, losses, and the range factor, and the warbots will even outdamage the roaches


Zagara also has hunter killers, which is much more comparable to warbots and, IMO, much better. They die more easily, but (I think) their DPS is higher and you can summon them way more often.

Roaches aren't really meant to be the big unit killer, like Swann's nuke or Karax's giant yellow laser beam. It's more of a giant meat shield, to really buffer your forces, or protect your banelings before they detonate. Think of it like in the HotS campaign; making the choice between primal zerg drop pods and the apocalypse spell. Obviously the latter can do way more damage, but you choose the former to protect your army. It also helps tremendously that you can drop roaches anywhere on the map, regardless of vision, which isn't the case for most abilities.

Anyway, instead of asking for a nerf, just keep trying. Plenty of people did it, and they all probably worked hard to do it (which is what makes it one of the better achievements IMO, unlike the ridiculous grind ones) so don't give up.
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 16:04:18
April 07 2016 16:02 GMT
#25
On April 06 2016 05:43 The Bottle wrote:
I got the roach achievement on the train map against terran. It may be hard now because two of the terran compositions go big heavy units, but they can still get bio. It helps if you aggressively go after the armor upgrades, to help keep them alive, use frenzy right after you drop the roaches, and buffer them with lings. You may be afraid that the lings will steal all the kills, but they should get your roaches more kills by keeping them alive. Also drop the roaches on top of the incoming wave, I'm pretty sure that does damage.

Yes, it's the hardest achievement. (I actually find this one comparable to Kerrigan's leaping strike achievement, since you almost always want to use psionic shift instead of leaping strike, and not doing the former can often get you in big trouble.) There is always going to be a hardest achievement, I find nothing wrong with that. If they made it easier, as per your request, then there would be a different hardest achievement. Would they have to nerf that too, to level it with the others? At what point do you become happy with the unavoidable asymmetry?

You just made me think...

Could you soak the incoming damage with just mass lings/aberrations on move-command, while the roaches dps? You move-command your mass lings behind their lines, drop roaches and frenzy, and then just have the lings move-command back and forth through the enemy army. Have your ally do the same thing. Maybe stop for a single attack or two, to trigger the armour thing of the lings, and soften them up a bit for the roaches. The enemy will target the closest enemy (right?), so should be almost only lings as long as they are amongst/around the roaches. Like that it should be possible to get a lot of kills from even a single roach cast. Or did I miss anything?
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
May 17 2016 07:53 GMT
#26
Finally
Cooldown decreased to 3 mins in 3.3.0
Ganseng
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation473 Posts
May 17 2016 07:55 GMT
#27
Told you guys
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-17 08:20:45
May 17 2016 08:09 GMT
#28
Lol Well met! ;p
Smile
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
May 17 2016 08:44 GMT
#29
Surprised they would buff Zagara at all... She's easily the most OP character behind Vorazun.
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
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