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On February 12 2016 01:16 DinoMight wrote:
On maps like Ulrena, wouldn't it be fun to plant like 3-4 SH in your main and just fly the locusts into their main? DO they last that long even?
I played against that once in plat league. Was a nightmare to deal with, and lost my nat. Zerg had lots of hydras and a couple of lurkers. I managed to overwhelm it eventually with voidray disruptor play
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I remember this being the case in both Wings and HotS too. Eventually people will start trying new things, it just takes a while for new things to be implemented into public games like tournaments. People will always try to stick to the things they are comfortable with as long as they have good results.
Example: It took a while for infestors to show up in Wings and later they were nerfed because everyone was using them.
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They're troll units, you make them to bm your opponent.
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This game has a very bloated unit roster. Limits are what makes games exciting, not very bloated rosters full of very niche units with overlapping functions. It's a good thing for shitty, boring units to remain nonviable though it would be better if Blizzard actually grew the balls to cut them out of the game completely.
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On February 12 2016 06:12 andrewlt wrote:
This game has a very bloated unit roster. Limits are what makes games exciting, not very bloated rosters full of very niche units with overlapping functions. It's a good thing for shitty, boring units to remain nonviable though it would be better if Blizzard actually grew the balls to cut them out of the game completely.
If you think there are *too many units* you could always just NOT USE them.
I'm okay having more variety in the game.
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Forget units. I can probably count on one hand every time Neosteel Frame has been used in the last six years.
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Make SH a Dark Swarm generator. It walks around with a permanent dark swarm over its head. No locusts, no attack. Name fits too.
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Battlecruiser yamoto is not only canceled by abduct, but you also lose the 100 energy as well which essentially gives you an expensive fucking dead weight 6 supply ship that hits like a marinr
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On February 12 2016 06:57 ElMeanYo wrote:
Make SH a Dark Swarm generator. It walks around with a permanent dark swarm over its head. No locusts, no attack. Name fits too.
That honestly sounds pretty sweet, how would it work with burrow?
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On February 12 2016 07:07 Hexe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 06:57 ElMeanYo wrote:
Make SH a Dark Swarm generator. It walks around with a permanent dark swarm over its head. No locusts, no attack. Name fits too. That honestly sounds pretty sweet, how would it work with burrow?
Probably it would turn off while burrowed, so SH can hide when in trouble 
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On February 12 2016 05:15 eezyBash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 01:16 DinoMight wrote:
On maps like Ulrena, wouldn't it be fun to plant like 3-4 SH in your main and just fly the locusts into their main? DO they last that long even?
I played against that once in plat league. Was a nightmare to deal with, and lost my nat. Zerg had lots of hydras and a couple of lurkers. I managed to overwhelm it eventually with voidray disruptor play
I had it in masters. Although he just knocked down the rocks (I actually scouted that and was kinda confused why he did that, I thought to prevent me from making a base there unobserved). First wave was a pain, and he ran, but after that his attacks were mainly costing him his swarmhosts.
Regarding battlecruisers vs ultras. I actually use battlecruisers quite a bit since I go mech, ground units all die to BL, and vikings / Liberators all die to vipers (maybe now a bit less problematic). If the opponent has corruptors, and even queens, they really are the higher priority since otherwise your battlecruisers simply die. So only yamatos you have is either when he has hydra - ultra or after you wiped out all his anti air (or he brought no anti air). And while somewhere in HotS Yamato was boosted (lowered cost to 100 energy, don't actually know if I consider that a good thing), its auto attack is nerfed against ultras in LotV. Generally I rely more on a few banshees and liberators in ground mode to mop up the ultras than battlecruisers.
And ravens, well enough has been said about them, the nerf bat is simply painful.
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I just don't understand why we don't still have durable materials upgrade.
Even making a fusion core requirement and making it take longer to research, just to give Terran a bit more something in the ultra late game. Everyone's talking about how TvZ is getting back to the Zerg just going for the ultra late game army behind infestor/ravager and Terran not being able to make an army to beat it any more.
Longer duration pdd/seeker missile would give terran much better tools to take the right fight in that late game.
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rather than any unit, i think the research burrow is vastly underused.
ever see a player a-move with infestors in an even engagement?
that's a thousand gas down the drain after the dust settles because they were not salvaged or kept alive.
how about burrowing individual roaches for regen, or cheap units across the map to scout key positions
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On February 12 2016 06:38 royalroadweed wrote:
Forget units. I can probably count on one hand every time Neosteel Frame has been used in the last six years.
i recall one game in GSTL where an IM terran, and i think it was Yoda, did a Neosteel Frame bunker push against Protoss. it was actually really sweet and won him the game. but that is literally the only time i can remember seeing it in a tournament game.
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On February 11 2016 17:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 17:42 Isualin wrote:
Battlecruiser is the least satisfying unit in the terran arsenal in terms of attack animation imo. Who gave that giant ship a slightly bigger gauss rifle. They are expensive, they are slow, their range is short. Even with the teleport ability(i am not sure if this thing still exists) i haven't seen any battlecruisers in any game for a while.
I also hate battlecruisers since MVP lost a gsl by losing all his army to an archon toilet. He was doing just fine without battlecruisers, they are inefficient. Mvp didn't lose that gsl he won in g7
nah Squirtle threw
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how about burrowing individual roaches for regen
It's not good. The roach has a burrow and unborrow delay each of of like 15-25% of it's attack cooldown. You would want to burrow a wounded roach the moment after it used its attack but unburrow before the next. Something that you absolutely don't have the attention to watch properly. On average the gain is very small:
10 HP if you can burrow for half the cooldown which competes with 16 damage attacks that you may delay or cancel if you do it wrong.
I have given tons of (seperate or combineable) suggestions to make this type of micro better in the past:
- remove/severely shorten burrow/unburrow delays
- give roaches an insta 5 heal upon burrowing
- make a burrowing roach dodge projectiles (like blink)
- possibly offset roach health by -5 or -10 to account for the greater combat strength
also, finally push out the burrow button patch...
On February 12 2016 08:22 DonDomingo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 17:44 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2016 17:42 Isualin wrote:
Battlecruiser is the least satisfying unit in the terran arsenal in terms of attack animation imo. Who gave that giant ship a slightly bigger gauss rifle. They are expensive, they are slow, their range is short. Even with the teleport ability(i am not sure if this thing still exists) i haven't seen any battlecruisers in any game for a while.
I also hate battlecruisers since MVP lost a gsl by losing all his army to an archon toilet. He was doing just fine without battlecruisers, they are inefficient. Mvp didn't lose that gsl he won in g7 nah Squirtle threw
nah, Mvp threw (but still won the series)
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On February 12 2016 08:32 Big J wrote:It's not good. The roach has a burrow and unborrow delay each of of like 15-25% of it's attack cooldown. You would want to burrow a wounded roach the moment after it used its attack but unburrow before the next. Something that you absolutely don't have the attention to watch properly. On average the gain is very small: 10 HP if you can burrow for half the cooldown which competes with 16 damage attacks that you may delay or cancel if you do it wrong. I have given tons of (seperate or combineable) suggestions to make this type of micro better in the past: - remove/severely shorten burrow/unburrow delays - give roaches an insta 5 heal upon burrowing - make a burrowing roach dodge projectiles (like blink) - possibly offset roach health by -5 or -10 to account for the greater combat strength also, finally push out the burrow button patch... Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 08:22 DonDomingo wrote:On February 11 2016 17:44 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2016 17:42 Isualin wrote:
Battlecruiser is the least satisfying unit in the terran arsenal in terms of attack animation imo. Who gave that giant ship a slightly bigger gauss rifle. They are expensive, they are slow, their range is short. Even with the teleport ability(i am not sure if this thing still exists) i haven't seen any battlecruisers in any game for a while.
I also hate battlecruisers since MVP lost a gsl by losing all his army to an archon toilet. He was doing just fine without battlecruisers, they are inefficient. Mvp didn't lose that gsl he won in g7 nah Squirtle threw nah, Mvp threw (but still won the series)
it's not about roach micro during a fight, it's about regenning between engagements because you have several low HP roaches
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On February 12 2016 00:17 DropMsZ1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 19:13 PiGStarcraft wrote:On February 11 2016 19:01 Sakat wrote:On February 11 2016 18:40 PiGStarcraft wrote:On February 11 2016 17:26 Sakat wrote:
Colossi and Swarm Hosts were nerfed into the ground. Don't know abot the Terran units though Keep in mind SH was buffed a LOT compared to late HOTS. Late hots: 100 minerals, 200 gas, 4 supply. Requires 200/200 160second flying locust upgrade. LOTV: 200 mins, 100 gas, 3 supply. No upgrade required. I guarantee we'll see more of these in a year+ time when players figure out lotv more  Yes, I know. But how viable is it? The only use I can think of for it is sniping Nexii vP or addons vT. It doesn't seem useful in engagements at all. EDIT: Although, I'm pretty shit at the game so I guess I'll take your word for it Purely for harassment in the midgame. The locusts do ridiculous damage for free, even though the cast time isn't long just 3 SH spawning 6 locusts has the potential to kill so much stuff. In the endgame for it's cost efficiency in mega turtle situations - though I haven't tested that out. Do you think this is the kind of Unit that will me used in the midgame vs P or T when Zergs are playing roach ravager or roach hydra? I think it could be a good way to multifront attack but not really used at the moment because it costs a lot of mineral in the current meta which are currently used with roach/ling ravager composition. @elojt: I totally agree with your point of view. It's still too early to try to buff them but maybe they could try it to encourage players to use them.
Yeah just as a relatively risk free multiprong harassment (even stim bio struggles to catch up with the new SH movespeed) as opposed to drops where you need to actually commit a lot of units - and the ovie drops aren't very agile so they sometimes can get completely shut down
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Raven are used sometimes, but because mech is so terrible ATM, you don't see them very much. BCs aren't used because terrans die to ultralisks before going for it.
Colossi are used, but the gamble-y bullshit disruptor is way stronger as long as AoE goes (plus you can harass with the roflprism).
Neural is still a niche spell, but it's too expansive in energy, and you're not allowed to build big units anymore against zerg ATM since ravagers eat through anything that doesn't run. And SHs are so f****ing terrible they're not used.
It's so so. I mean I like that the raven is used as a support unit and not as mass raven death turtle strat. I like that zerg can only build 10-15 mutas because of liberators, and not rely on the 45 mutas luftwaffe any more. I like that you can build tanks in TvP to support your bio. I like that colossi are countered by static siege units, like the liberator.
However, still, a lot of units are underused because the LOTV units are still so OP. Except for the cyclone, which is so bad in design it's always gonna be terrible or OP.
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On February 12 2016 06:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 06:12 andrewlt wrote:
This game has a very bloated unit roster. Limits are what makes games exciting, not very bloated rosters full of very niche units with overlapping functions. It's a good thing for shitty, boring units to remain nonviable though it would be better if Blizzard actually grew the balls to cut them out of the game completely. If you think there are *too many units* you could always just NOT USE them. I'm okay having more variety in the game.
That's a silly argument. Every single viable unit needs to be prepared for. Every single viable unit can be used for an all in. As a spectator, it makes games look more like a guessing game rather than a game of skill. And you're making the game less accessible to the casual spectator who sees a new unit he's never seen before almost every time he watches the game. Also, the units the OP wants back are some of the worst designed units the game has to offer.
SC2 already matched BW's unit roster way back in WoL. The expansions added more units and on the whole, HotS' new units have been an unmitigated disaster. It's too early to tell whether LotV's new units will match the disaster that HotS' new units were.
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EPT
