EPT- Select four ravagers and a zergling
- Engage into the zerg's fortified position
- The zergling arrives quicker and draws all lurker shots, akin to tank overkill in Brood War
- Fire off four corrosive bile shots to kill a single lurker
- The lurker dies and your ravagers escape unscathed from even the most heavily defended positions
Legacy of the Week: Ravager - Page 4
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 26 2015 04:35 Big J wrote: Corrosive bile damage changed to 55(+345 vs pylons). lmao That racial bias though. I don't understand why you think that Roaches and Ravagers should require different counters. First of all, Corrosive Bile is so imposing that it ITSELF requires that we play against it a certain way. Second, Ravagers come from Roaches. When Zerg makes a bunch of Roaches we can't just go "oh, he'll probably turn those into Ravagers... let me just make the counter to Ravagers." Zerg always has the option to keep them Roaches. So we have to build counters to Roaches. REACTIVELY the Zerg can then make Ravagers out of his Roaches and we're fucked. Roaches are strong units and if you don't have anything that deals + damage to them they take a long time to kill. Third, it's not like anything is especially GOOD at killing Ravagers... most things do mediocre DPS against them and take full DPS from them (both their regular attack and the Corrosive Bile). Only Zealots do full damage to Ravagers before you get to Fleet Beacon, Twilight, or Robo Bay (TIER 3 UNITS). Hatch tech should not require Tier 3 units to counter it... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 26 2015 04:52 DinoMight wrote: lmao That racial bias though. I don't understand why you think that Roaches and Ravagers should require different counters. First of all, Corrosive Bile is so imposing that it ITSELF requires that we play against it a certain way. Second, Ravagers come from Roaches. When Zerg makes a bunch of Roaches we can't just go "oh, he'll probably turn those into Ravagers... let me just make the counter to Ravagers." Zerg always has the option to keep them Roaches. So we have to build counters to Roaches. REACTIVELY the Zerg can then make Ravagers out of his Roaches and we're fucked. Roaches are strong units and if you don't have anything that deals + damage to them they take a long time to kill. Third, it's not like anything is especially GOOD at killing Ravagers... most things do mediocre DPS against them and take full DPS from them (both their regular attack and the Corrosive Bile). Only Zealots do full damage to Ravagers before you get to Fleet Beacon, Twilight, or Robo Bay (TIER 3 UNITS). Hatch tech should not require Tier 3 units to counter it... @corrosive bile: Yeah of course, because thats the thing you pay 25/75 for. You don't pay to get your roach downgraded in health and damage output. The corrosive bile is what makes the ravager the ravager, obviously you have to play around it when you play against ravagers. @tech required: Protoss has been designed around early game bandaids, in particular the mothership core so that they can rush mid and hightech superfast. Hence balance- and designwise I don't see the contradiction that Protoss actually has to make use of that power to counter zergs massive larva power when they do a ravager allin. It may not be enough though, given how overpowered inject still is, especially when you can make 100/100 units in the early game off 1larva. @counters Just because a unit doesn't do extra damage to the ravager doesn't mean it doesn't do good amounts of damage to it. Ravagers only have 41% of the HP/cost of a roach which makes immortal shots onto ravagers just as valueable as on roaches and stalker shots much more valueable on ravagers than on roaches, despite only dealing 71% damage to it. So in general a lot of units are good counters against ravagers - if they can attack them (which often requires you to maw through the roach/ling buffer) If the ravager had some overlapping hardcounters with the roach it would have a serious problem being viable at all. The gameplay would probably be like: I made roaches, you countered them... let me never make ravagers because you already counter them so hard. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On November 26 2015 05:12 Big J wrote: @corrosive bile: Yeah of course, because thats the thing you pay 25/75 for. You don't pay to get your roach downgraded in health and damage output. The corrosive bile is what makes the ravager the ravager, obviously you have to play around it when you play against ravagers. Well ... you morph them to get corrosive bile, and lose the armor tag, and increase the size of the unit (disabling splash, like tanks), and gain +50% attack range ... You could probably argue to completely remove Corrosive Bile and the Ravager would still be an upgraded Roach (not advocating for this, btw). An AOE attack spell that does 60 dmg at hatch tech, on cooldown, is obviously very OP. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On November 19 2015 10:36 Jer99 wrote: Interestingly enough, the ravager has 25hp less than a roach. While netting less survivability, this is somewhat mitigated by the increased damage output through faster attack speed, and the utility of the corrosive bile ability. Wait I thought it had less DPS than a roach (at least at 0-1 upgrade) unless you factored in corrosive bile. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Paying 25/75 is not the issue. Paying 25/75 at hatch tech when the only thing available to me are Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries and maybe 1 Immortal is. This unit hits the battlefield INCREDIBLY early. Think of what the game would look like if Terran had a Battlecruiser at Barracks tech. Sure it's expensive, but at that time in the game there's very little you can make to counter it. So Terran saves up and makes their Battlecruiser and then they win, or the Protoss/Zerg has to invest so much into defending against this that they just lose eventually anyway. That is what Ravagers are like to play against. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
HOWEVER, they shoot from longer range AND shoot faster which means higher efficiency (until armor starts to kick in). So against Marines and Adepts they shoot first (roach always shoots second). Health goes from 145 to 120. HOWEVER they take considerably less damage from Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, and Marauders as a result of this. The Ravager itself on paper is not a bad fighting unit. Also, it has a 7 second cooldown 60 damage aoe spell that hits air and buildings and cloaked and burrowed units. How is this not the brokest unit in the game? | ||
Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
On November 26 2015 07:57 varsovie wrote: Wait I thought it had less DPS than a roach (at least at 0-1 upgrade) unless you factored in corrosive bile. Liquipedia is wrong, the attack period for a roach is 1.43 with an attack damage of 16, giving it a DPS 11.2 the attack period of a ravager is 1.14, and also has an attack damage of 16, giving it a DPS of 14.04 | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:25 Jer99 wrote: Liquipedia is wrong, the attack period for a roach is 1.43 with an attack damage of 16, giving it a DPS 11.2 the attack period of a ravager is 1.14, and also has an attack damage of 16, giving it a DPS of 14.04 This is hugely important! I assumed they at least got a DPS debuff when morphing. Increased DPS plus a 50% attack range increase? Double or triple the cooldown on corrosive bile, at a bare minimum. Move the ravager to Lair. This will barely delay the attack, but it will help in scouting. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:37 TimeSpiral wrote: This is hugely important! I assumed they at least got a DPS debuff when morphing. Increased DPS plus a 50% attack range increase? Double or triple the cooldown on corrosive bile, at a bare minimum. Move the ravager to Lair. This will barely delay the attack, but it will help in scouting. you mean make them completely worthless? ya | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
I also think it's silly and weird that it moves faster than a roach. It looks goofy because it is so big. When you evolve into something bigger you generally move slower.... especially if it's an artillery cannon unit. I think the Ravager is basically the neo-SC2 design team summed up. They just don't understand RTS as well as the BW team did. This is basically why the best expansion units have been remakes of BW units (widow mine = spider mine, hellbat = firebat, etc). And when they actually make completely new units we get stuff like the colossus and the tempest (people should be fired and lose their pension for such poorly designed units), the warhound, the ravager, and etc. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 26 2015 16:11 DemigodcelpH wrote: Too strong and too well-rounded. I also think it's silly and weird that it moves faster than a roach. It looks goofy because it is so big. When you evolve into something bigger you generally move slower.... especially if it's an artillery cannon unit. I think the Ravager is basically the neo-SC2 design team summed up. They just don't understand RTS as well as the BW team did. This is basically why the best expansion units have been remakes of BW units (widow mine = spider mine, hellbat = firebat, etc). And when they actually make completely new units we get stuff like the colossus and the tempest (people should be fired and lose their pension for such poorly designed units), the warhound, the ravager, and etc. There were sometimes people that would complain about Blizzard taking units from Brood War and how it showed their dearth of creativity, and then others that wished they would take only units from Brood War because they were incapable of solid original design, and yet others that wanted Brood War units to be untarnished by the new designers. Blizzard can't do much right for some people, it's very gloomy discussion sometimes. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On November 26 2015 21:37 Grumbels wrote: There were sometimes people that would complain about Blizzard taking units from Brood War and how it showed their dearth of creativity, and then others that wished they would take only units from Brood War because they were incapable of solid original design, and yet others that wanted Brood War units to be untarnished by the new designers. Blizzard can't do much right for some people, it's very gloomy discussion sometimes. The person you quote isn't wrong about the units sucking, though. The design team dropped the ball on SC2. I know it's not a popular thing to say but I really feel it's true. The units mentioned in the post above are poorly designed and poorly implemented. Much of the changes to SC2 feel like patchwork solutions to deeper issues that have never been resolved. I understand it's hard to create and balance a game like this and I know they're trying but they're not on point like BW fans expect. That's not to say BW was perfect straight out of the gate; but it became the most popular and nearly perfectly balanced (and fun!) RTS game of all time. There's no way SC2 gets to that point the way it is now. The problem with the ravager is that protoss doesn't have anything to stifle it. It's less that the ravager is too strong or comes out too early than it is that it has no counter. It has no counter because the new protoss units are really, really lackluster. Ravagers will almost certainly be getting nerfed (given the amount of hate they're getting) but what really ought to happen is that the other races get a unit that can deal with them. Probably too late for that now. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 27 2015 02:46 Mjolnir wrote: The person you quote isn't wrong about the units sucking, though. The design team dropped the ball on SC2. I know it's not a popular thing to say but I really feel it's true. The units mentioned in the post above are poorly designed and poorly implemented. Much of the changes to SC2 feel like patchwork solutions to deeper issues that have never been resolved. I understand it's hard to create and balance a game like this and I know they're trying but they're not on point like BW fans expect. That's not to say BW was perfect straight out of the gate; but it became the most popular and nearly perfectly balanced (and fun!) RTS game of all time. There's no way SC2 gets to that point the way it is now. I know, I'm mostly talking about various views that I've wavered on myself over the years. However, the point remains that there are a lot of debates here which are premised on a basic lack of faith in Blizzard and it creates a sense of despondency in the tone here. I'm very guilty of it myself, that's why lately I've started to think that the discourse would be improved in trying to cease investing Blizzard with agency. We could have constructive criticism (in the literal sense) where the game itself would be the object to be investigated instead of every argument serving as a proxy for one's opinion on Blizzard and how one disagrees with their direction for the game. We have no influence over their internal dialogue and decision making regardless, incorporating Blizzard into the conversation only induces fatalism and resignation (at least if you are inclined to view them negatively, as I am wont to). | ||
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ETisME
12737 Posts
I am happy about it. Especially it makes Zerg having a different way to micro more than the usual flanking surrounding and splitting. I am having lots of fun in zvz once got pass the king baneling phrase because you get so much more to play with (burrow movement roach, ravager roach, lurker etc) 2. Do you feel that the ravager has a place in each matchup? Yes, but I am still uncertain about zvt, not sure if it will stay a common unit composition after a few patches. I have a feeling blizzard will do a patch to improve other unit comp and nerf ravager. 3. Is corrosive bile better versus forcefields or structures/units? Its better against units and structures for sure. There is no point to destroy forcefields in the battle when you can either do damage to the Protoss ball or force them to move back for some extra time brought 4. Is the current tech requirement of a roach warren fine, or should the requirements change to access the ravager? I like it just fine to be honest. Scouting it is hard but I believe it can be solved by meta and more understanding of the game. 5. Do you think the ravager has too many roles? I think too many is difficult to define. I like it doing a lot of things which some it excel and some it is more of a support. You don't really mass ravager like marine, it's more of a hydra kind of unit. 6. Is the current total cost of 100/100 too cheap/expensive? This is a tough call, the cost is indeed quite high because you won't get one or two ravager, you get at least 4+ Ravagers to do some sort of early pressure. People might not realise but you are losing a roach for this and you are going to need some units to replace the tanking part, whether you build lings or roach you are going to use up another larva. For the mid game and so on, it's expensive enough to make the Zerg not able to switch to another unit comp easily. 7. Recently, ravagers changed and became unarmored. Do you agree? I think nothing much changed to be honest other than making ravager tank interaction less awkward. Once your tanking front is down, ravager are pretty much dead anyway. 8. The current morph time from roach to ravager is 9 seconds. Is this too fast? Too slow? Too fast I believe, but its always hard to make the right call on this one. Banelings for example takes short time to morph and so you can engage pretty easily after giving just enough time for opponent to secure some ground and regroup the army. Ravagers is awkward because they are like lurker, it takes a while to morph and requires a tanking unit at front. Either you don't have them ready to deal with counter push or the tanking units aren't there yet. 9. Do you see the ravager as a support unit and/or a siege unit? Both. 10. Is the damage and/or splash from corrosive bile too much? It is pretty strong against really stationary targets like structure but at the same time I feel like this is only an early game issue. Against units it's strong if only all the hits landed which rarely happens 11. If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why? Nothing for now. Maybe improve the model visual appearance | ||
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MufffinMan
7 Posts
11. If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why? First, one point i have not seen in this thread. The Corrosive Bile generates an attack-information to the enemy. That happens before the Bile makes damage at the unit or the structure. My simple question is: Why? That is the only "Spell-Cast" which does this. I would be happy if this will be patched out or patched in for other units like the Liberator. If a Liberator goes in siegemode, I only recognize after the first Dronekill or if i have seen it before on the map. If I target something with the Bile, everybody gets the chance to avoid damage. This will maybe not affect bronze - gold / Platin-league, but if a player is on top of his apm, he will easily dodge almost every bileshot on important units like the Warpprism or Liberator. I know this will be a slight buff, but then we have to balance it otherwise I think. This mechanic is not well implemented if you compare it to all other units. I checked a Replay and did not see this. Did they fixed it or is it still in the game? Maybe there are not Notifications in the Replay | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
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Toplicane
Germany25 Posts
On November 26 2015 03:54 MufffinMan wrote: 11. If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why? First, one point i have not seen in this thread. The Corrosive Bile generates an attack-information to the enemy. That happens before the Bile makes damage at the unit or the structure. My simple question is: Why? That is the only "Spell-Cast" which does this. I would be happy if this will be patched out or patched in for other units like the Liberator. If a Liberator goes in siegemode, I only recognize after the first Dronekill or if i have seen it before on the map. If I target something with the Bile, everybody gets the chance to avoid damage. This will maybe not affect bronze - gold / Platin-league, but if a player is on top of his apm, he will easily dodge almost every bileshot on important units like the Warpprism or Liberator. I know this will be a slight buff, but then we have to balance it otherwise I think. This mechanic is not well implemented if you compare it to all other units. On the Nerf-side i would implement a upgrade for the Roachwarren like the Lurkerden on T1. So the enemy can see what the Zerg will build and can do his counterthings vs Ravager. Also i would Nerf the Bile a little, maybe damage-reduce or Cooldown-increase. Every other spellcaster has either a high ability cooldown or is energy based. The ravager ability is spamable beyond reason. Without any notification you can just instaquit and PvZ, because you will lose a 100% of the time. For example: Storm damage is over time: You can simply walk out of it. Fungal is a projectile, you can dodge it. Nuclear launch has an message displayed as well as the "notification" (aka the red dot). You can and have to move out of it. If you just have 60 AoE damage instantly dropped on your army you dont even need to fight. | ||
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MufffinMan
7 Posts
Don't know what your point at Fungle is, I think it is fine how it is. Nuclear launch is an area almost the size of half a screen.... the comparison is not usefull. It is like a Nydus, you will get a notification even if it is on my side of the map. To compare similar Abilitys Widow Mine: no Notification, yes the Cooldown is higher but the AOE is more powerfull and the Unit is way cheaper. Also it is borrowed. Liberator: no Notification. This Thing kills at least 3 Drones before you can move out of range if you are not at place. Disruptor: No Notification, higher Cooldown, costs more, makes more damage. If you read my comment you see, that I think that this will be a slight buff, but the mechanic makes no sense in comparison to the other abilitys. If it is a bug, I hope they will fix it. If it is no bug they have to do a Nerf otherwise. All this is my own Opinion, nothing meant to offend! | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On November 29 2015 02:27 MufffinMan wrote: Storm ist instant, if you move instant out of the area after the Storm is casted you will still get a high amount of damage. Don't know what your point at Fungle is, I think it is fine how it is. Nuclear launch is an area almost the size of half a screen.... the comparison is not usefull. It is like a Nydus, you will get a notification even if it is on my side of the map. To compare similar Abilitys Widow Mine: no Notification, yes the Cooldown is higher but the AOE is more powerfull and the Unit is way cheaper. Also it is borrowed. Liberator: no Notification. This Thing kills at least 3 Drones before you can move out of range if you are not at place. Disruptor: No Notification, higher Cooldown, costs more, makes more damage. If you read my comment you see, that I think that this will be a slight buff, but the mechanic makes no sense in comparison to the other abilitys. If it is a bug, I hope they will fix it. If it is no bug they have to do a Nerf otherwise. All this is my own Opinion, nothing meant to offend! I think you might just be a little confused. Widow mines shows a warning graphic to the opponent. A targeting line is drawn, giving your opponent time to disengage and take zero damage. Incidentally, the Widow Mine shot can also be dodged, even after it's locked and fired (blink, warp prism micro, etc ...). Liberator has an animation on the unit, and a gigantic flashing red warning graphic for the opponent. Then, even after the warning graphic disappears, a permanent indicator shows up for the opponent (only unit in the game that does this). Normally a unit's range can be seen if (A) you have vision of it, and (B) you have it selected. Disruptor's Nova Purification ball--or whatever it's called--is essentially the on-screen warning. It does no damage until the fuse burns out. There are only a few point-and-click AOE abilities in the game, and all of them were introduced in LotV (correct me if I'm wrong!): (1) Reaper Grenade, (2) Corrosive Bile, and (3) Purification Nova. All three have on-screen warnings for the opponent. This is to create counter-play between the two players. I do think, however, that the Reaper grenade looks incredibly weak compared to the massive, massive damage done by the other point-and-click cooldown AOE abilities. Would be nice if the grenade could be upgraded to do more damage in the later stages of the game. There are only a few global notifications: Nuclear launch, and Nydus worm. This is because of the terrible, terrible consequences of not focusing on it. | ||
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