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This is a lower league Terran player's opinion, so take everything with a sack of salt.
How do you feel about the ravager design in general?
Ravagers were obviously made as a go-to solution to many different problems zerg faced in the early to mid game. Protoss disables much of your army with force fields? Ravager! Terran walls off and puts mines, tanks and now liberators in front of your or their base? Ravager! Protoss uses pylon overcharge? Ravager! Terran counters your roaches with Marauders? Ravager! The unit does solve these problems. The thing is that it not only solves problems, it creates new ones. Time will tell whether they are larger than the ones it solved (in the game overall), but right now, it seems to throw ZvT and ZvP off balance.
Also, it is one embodiment of the design philosophy behind LotV: Putting more micro into the game and make macro less important. I strongly disagree with that philosophy, but the Ravager fits in well with that.
Do you feel that the ravager has a place in each matchup?
Definitely. It is a great midgame mass unit in all three matchups, and enables early pushes into fortified positions of all three races.
Is corrosive bile better versus forcefields or structures/units?
Since force fields are not used much any more, it seems to be used mostly against slow or stationary units or low-hitpoint buildings. Of course, it still does its job against force fields.
Is the current tech requirement of a roach warren fine, or should the requirements change to access the ravager?
Since roaches are generally a good defensive unit to begin with, delaying ravagers to lair or at least to a ravager warren building upgrade similar to the lurker den would not make the zerg much more vulnerable, and take some pressure off their opponents.
Do you think the ravager has too many roles?
Yes. It is a siege unit, a siege breaker, a support unit, a building- and large unit sniper, and works surprisingly well tanking damage and fighting in front lines. Also, it lends itself very well as a core for two-base all-ins.
Is the current total cost of 100/100 too cheap/expensive?
For a single ravager, the cost appears fine. The problem is rather the scaling and cost-effectiveness of larger numbers of the unit at the time it is available in the game.
Recently, ravagers changed and became unarmored. Do you agree?
I very much disagree. Both protoss and terran do not have a satisfying answer to Roach/Ravager balls, especially as early as they come into the game.
The current morph time from roach to ravager is 9 seconds. Is this too fast? Too slow?
The morph time is not the problem, so it can stay where it is. Pushing the morph time to 20 seconds and over would be far too punishing for the zerg player.
Do you see the ravager as a support unit and/or a siege unit?
It is both, but it excels as a siege- and defense breaker. Defensive play is directly countered by this unit, and is so very early in the game. This plays into the design philosophy behind LotV, of course - I understand that. But more or less completely invalidating a playstyle that has been used by a good chunk of the player base since 2001 seems unnecessarily drastic.
Zerg already have extremely good counters to turtle play. Those usually were only available by the 15 minute mark, but then will hit hard. Why did they need another one that hits at 3 minutes?
Is the damage and/or splash from corrosive bile too much?
60 damage to everything is too much, especially to per-se stationary units like tanks and buildings like most stationary defense, especially bunkers and pylons. In all honesty, I would change the 60 to everything to 20 (+40 to biological). This makes it a fun micro tool in ZvZ, and will still work well against terran bio and zealots.
If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why?
Make it come later. Or make it hit less hard against defensive strategies. Or make it be countered by at least one go-to strategy from each race. Or a combination of any of the above.
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On November 23 2015 23:26 TheoMikkelsen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 08:50 Nerchio wrote:
Maybe it should be tweaked a little bit but it's a good unit that finally gives zerg the ability to attack other races. I feel the same. Reducing structure damage on corrosive bile to 30 or 20 would be most likely be enough.
That's the point.
Since forever Protoss players (and Terran players) counted on cleverly placed cannons, structures and forcefields to counter Zerg aggression.
Right now the Ravager throws everything we know about how to defend against Zerg out of the window. That's not bad per se (its actually good for the game), but the consequences are brutal and far-reaching.
And the numbers are showing. Right now Zerg has 44.65% master league (NA server) representation against 19.71% from Protoss and 28% from Terran.
"There are more Zerg players", one could argue. Yes, but not by much: Zerg total population is 31.68% and Protoss is 28.63% (again, NA server).
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On November 24 2015 01:37 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 23:26 TheoMikkelsen wrote:On November 23 2015 08:50 Nerchio wrote:
Maybe it should be tweaked a little bit but it's a good unit that finally gives zerg the ability to attack other races. I feel the same. Reducing structure damage on corrosive bile to 30 or 20 would be most likely be enough. That's the point. Since forever Protoss players (and Terran players) counted on cleverly placed cannons, structures and forcefields to counter Zerg aggression. Right now the Ravager throws everything we know about how to defend against Zerg out of the window. That's not bad per se (its actually good for the game), but the consequences are brutal and far-reaching. And the numbers are showing. Right now Zerg has 44.65% master league (NA server) representation against 19.71% from Protoss and 28% from Terran. "There are more Zerg players", one could argue. Yes, but not by much: Zerg total population is 31.68% and Protoss is 28.63% (again, NA server).
Infrastructure requirements from Terran and Protoss mean that they will spend a lot more in the early game on buildings than Zerg and therefore have far less units.
So they need to play defensively with walls in the super early game as to not get swarmed by lings/roaches in the open.
Ravagers are inherently broken because they give Zerg siege weaponry at a time when the other races HAVE to turtle.
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On November 24 2015 02:00 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 01:37 Tiaraju9 wrote:On November 23 2015 23:26 TheoMikkelsen wrote:On November 23 2015 08:50 Nerchio wrote:
Maybe it should be tweaked a little bit but it's a good unit that finally gives zerg the ability to attack other races. I feel the same. Reducing structure damage on corrosive bile to 30 or 20 would be most likely be enough. That's the point. Since forever Protoss players (and Terran players) counted on cleverly placed cannons, structures and forcefields to counter Zerg aggression. Right now the Ravager throws everything we know about how to defend against Zerg out of the window. That's not bad per se (its actually good for the game), but the consequences are brutal and far-reaching. And the numbers are showing. Right now Zerg has 44.65% master league (NA server) representation against 19.71% from Protoss and 28% from Terran. "There are more Zerg players", one could argue. Yes, but not by much: Zerg total population is 31.68% and Protoss is 28.63% (again, NA server). Infrastructure requirements from Terran and Protoss mean that they will spend a lot more in the early game on buildings than Zerg and therefore have far less units. So they need to play defensively with walls in the super early game as to not get swarmed by lings/roaches in the open. Ravagers are inherently broken because they give Zerg siege weaponry at a time when the other races HAVE to turtle.
There are a few things I think need to be looked at with the Ravager, and some of these are give and take. I think the best possible solution is to move the Ravager to the lair. I don't like morphing the Roach Warren into a Ravager den. I feel like that might be too big of a nerf. It's a good unit, but--and I've said this before--an anti-ground / anti-air AOE spell that also damages structures and burrowed units on hatch-tech just breaks the game and doesn't make any sense from a Zerg design perspective. It especially breaks TvZ.
Tweaks to discuss if we're not going to move it to Lair:
- Remove the ability of corrosive bile to hit burrowed units. As it happens, the Ravager either directly, or indirectly counters: the Factory, Marauders, and the Liberator. Early roaches essentially counter Reapers and Marines.
- Double the cooldown on corrosive bile. The ability to zone units, and protect the Ravager from early-game units with Roaches, means you're dodging or taking siege damage from a constant stream of AOE death raining from above.
- Or, instead of a big cooldown, change corrosive bile to an energy-based ability. It's just too good to be a skill shot on cooldown, really, with how early it can come out. 3-6 Ravagers doing 60 damage each, every 7 seconds, plus a regular attack with 6 range?
- Tweak the fall time. Right now, there isn't enough time to move a sieged tank or a Liberator in Defender Mode. You will be hit and you just traded supply, money, and necessary DPS for a 7 second cooldown ... in other words: for free. Maybe just tweak it very slightly so a human-level reaction time could save a tank or a Liberator.
Brainstorming. Right now it feels like Terran is forced into rushing to banshees, and even then, it takes forever to kill the Ravagers, and takes 100 focus on micro to not die, which means in a 1v1 your macro falls apart. Perhaps leaving the Armor tag would allow Terran to open with Marauders or Tanks.
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On November 25 2015 04:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
- Remove the ability of corrosive bile to hit burrowed units. As it happens, the Ravager either directly, or indirectly counters: the Factory, Marauders, and the Liberator. Early roaches essentially counter Reapers and Marines.
I thought that was funny before, that Blizzard would finally add the lurker to the game and also include an anti-lurker unit for zerg. I guess it showed they were hedging their bets, since there seems no real counter to ravagers for a lurker player, but technically it's part of ZvZ (idk how zvz works in practice though).
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The cooldown is waaaay too short.
IMO increasing it to like 15 seconds or more should fix the unit.
You can't be using Corrosive bile to siege the other races that early at 60 damage AOE a hit... it's just not fair.
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On November 25 2015 05:46 DinoMight wrote:
The cooldown is waaaay too short.
IMO increasing it to like 15 seconds or more should fix the unit.
You can't be using Corrosive bile to siege the other races that early at 60 damage AOE a hit... it's just not fair.
The cooldown and damage for corrosive bile predictably relate to its siege utility, because of the constant damage to stationary targets aspect, but their influence on combat seems more difficult to model. What about giving buildings some measure of immunity to create more freedom for balancing the ravager in other areas?
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On November 25 2015 06:02 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:46 DinoMight wrote:
The cooldown is waaaay too short.
IMO increasing it to like 15 seconds or more should fix the unit.
You can't be using Corrosive bile to siege the other races that early at 60 damage AOE a hit... it's just not fair. The cooldown and damage for corrosive bile predictably relate to its siege utility, because of the constant damage to stationary targets aspect, but their influence on combat seems more difficult to model. What about giving buildings some measure of immunity to create more freedom for balancing the ravager in other areas?
I think if it did less to buildings that be a start.
The problem is that it's not a "skill shot" when y can spam it against stationary targets.
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I would like to see that the corrosive bile proyectile could be destroyed as it falls down.
This way maybe turrets could protect sige tanks but ofc the turret will obly kill the first corrosive bile shot the next ones will hit the tank unless you have more turrets or marines.
The proyectile shouldnt be first priority to kill.
I hope I made tyis clear 
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As far as battles, I've lost a few battles in ZvZ where I had roach hydra and they used bile to force me to move around alot. .. it significantly reduces the DPS of the hydras, they fire so quickly and they have to stop firing to avoid the bile.
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Corrosive Bile should not hit burrowed units. Does anyone disagree with that? I just don't think the Ravager should counter every possible strategy Terran can employ in the first phase of the game.
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On November 26 2015 00:08 TimeSpiral wrote:
Corrosive Bile should not hit burrowed units. Does anyone disagree with that? I just don't think the Ravager should counter every possible strategy Terran can employ in the first phase of the game.
I actually don't mind that it hits burrowed or invisible units since that actually takes some semblance of skill.
I just think in general it comes too early, is too strong, and is too spammable. Fix one of these at least and we'll get somewhere...
Hitting an observer is quite hard actually.... with a single shot... but when you have 10 ravagers and the obs can only move so fast it's not that hard especially with the short cooldown.
When I play with Ravagers I basically never worry about using the ability because the cooldown is so short. It's not like Blink where I have to be REALLY careful not to Blink somewhere unsafe, otherwise I'm toast. Even retreating with Ravage you can cover your tracks the Bile.
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"- Tweak the fall time. Right now, there isn't enough time to move a sieged tank or a Liberator in Defender Mode. You will be hit and you just traded supply, money, and necessary DPS for a 7 second cooldown ... in other words: for free. Maybe just tweak it very slightly so a human-level reaction time could save a tank or a Liberator. "
Yeah, so Zerg hasn't got ANYTHING for early Liberators and drop-tanks. Come on...
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On November 26 2015 02:38 Legobiten wrote:
"- Tweak the fall time. Right now, there isn't enough time to move a sieged tank or a Liberator in Defender Mode. You will be hit and you just traded supply, money, and necessary DPS for a 7 second cooldown ... in other words: for free. Maybe just tweak it very slightly so a human-level reaction time could save a tank or a Liberator. "
Yeah, so Zerg hasn't got ANYTHING for early Liberators and drop-tanks. Come on...
Tankivacs can be defended with Zerlings and queens quite well.
Liberators are fucking stupid, those are really what you "need" ravagers for.
Reducing Corrosive Bile to like 7 range and reducing the size of the Liberation Zone would work.
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On November 26 2015 00:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 00:08 TimeSpiral wrote:
Corrosive Bile should not hit burrowed units. Does anyone disagree with that? I just don't think the Ravager should counter every possible strategy Terran can employ in the first phase of the game. I actually don't mind that it hits burrowed or invisible units since that actually takes some semblance of skill. I just think in general it comes too early, is too strong, and is too spammable. Fix one of these at least and we'll get somewhere... Hitting an observer is quite hard actually.... with a single shot... but when you have 10 ravagers and the obs can only move so fast it's not that hard especially with the short cooldown. When I play with Ravagers I basically never worry about using the ability because the cooldown is so short. It's not like Blink where I have to be REALLY careful not to Blink somewhere unsafe, otherwise I'm toast. Even retreating with Ravage you can cover your tracks the Bile.
Well yeah, from a Protoss perspective it's not an issue, because you don't have units that burrow. But as a Terran, the Widow Mine actually does decent damage to Ravagers. Unfortunately it's hard-countered by the Ravager because it has such a fucking obvious "tell" when its burrowed. There is no way to un-burrow and move. You just lose the WM, and it's a complete waste. Same thing with tanks. Or liberators. Or helions.
The Roach Ravager composition beats, or directly counters:
- Reapers
- Marines
- Marauders
- Helions
- Widow Mines
- Tanks
- Liberators
There is no way to no if the Roach Warren is for an all-in, or if there is a big pack of drones behind it. And by the time you do know, there is not enough time--as Terran--to prepare. It's basically a build-order loss if you didn't open with a barracks all-in yourself. Crazy match-up right now.
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On November 26 2015 03:25 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 00:11 DinoMight wrote:On November 26 2015 00:08 TimeSpiral wrote:
Corrosive Bile should not hit burrowed units. Does anyone disagree with that? I just don't think the Ravager should counter every possible strategy Terran can employ in the first phase of the game. I actually don't mind that it hits burrowed or invisible units since that actually takes some semblance of skill. I just think in general it comes too early, is too strong, and is too spammable. Fix one of these at least and we'll get somewhere... Hitting an observer is quite hard actually.... with a single shot... but when you have 10 ravagers and the obs can only move so fast it's not that hard especially with the short cooldown. When I play with Ravagers I basically never worry about using the ability because the cooldown is so short. It's not like Blink where I have to be REALLY careful not to Blink somewhere unsafe, otherwise I'm toast. Even retreating with Ravage you can cover your tracks the Bile. Well yeah, from a Protoss perspective it's not an issue, because you don't have units that burrow. But as a Terran, the Widow Mine actually does decent damage to Ravagers. Unfortunately it's hard-countered by the Ravager because it has such a fucking obvious "tell" when its burrowed. There is no way to un-burrow and move. You just lose the WM, and it's a complete waste. Same thing with tanks. Or liberators. Or helions. The Roach Ravager composition beats, or directly counters: - Reapers - Marines - Marauders - Helions - Widow Mines - Tanks - Liberators There is no way to no if the Roach Warren is for an all-in, or if there is a big pack of drones behind it. And by the time you do know, there is not enough time--as Terran--to prepare. It's basically a build-order loss if you didn't open with a barracks all-in yourself. Crazy match-up right now.
Banshee opener or bust versus Zerg every game. If it turns out they are going mutas, transition to liberators. All other opening builds are suicide against roach/ravager.
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My opinion on the Ravager, I am a Diamond Zerg Player atm.
1. How do you feel about the ravager design in general?
It is a great Unit, looks great and it is fun to play with. Even if you do not hit with the Bile, it feels great to fire it up 
2. Do you feel that the ravager has a place in each matchup?
Yes,
you need it in TvZ to have something vs the Liberator. The Liberator hits at Minute 4-5. With that the Terran can deny a hole Base from mining Minerals. The Zerg needs 3-4 Ravager to kill the Liberator or to make him disengage.
Maybe the Ravager hits a little bit to early in the game, I would prefer a Roachwarren-Upgrade, because Lairtech might be to late.
In PvZ it is also a good unit, you can do something vs the PhotonSpamCharge. I don't know really, cause I am a Zerg but the Adept must be the counter to Ravager. Correct me if I am wrong. The Toss is a little too weak against Zerg atm, but I don't know if this problem can be solved with a Ravager-nerf or with a Protoss-Buff.
In ZvZ the Ravager is a welcome Unit to make the HotS-Roach-Fights way more funny than before. Also you need it to do something vs Lurker.
3. Is corrosive bile better versus forcefields or structures/units?
It is better vs units/structures, the Toss-Players do not build many Sentrys anymore. The Bile kills the Forcefield, but it takes a time to do that. I will first go for units or structures. Except it is the one FF on a ramp to the Mainbase that stops your units to go there.
4. Is the current tech requirement of a roach warren fine, or should the requirements change to access the ravager? Maybe there have to be an Upgrade in the Roachwarren or sth like the Lurkerden but not on Lairtech.
5. Do you think the ravager has too many roles?
No, it is needed to counter Liberator in the first place. Also it helps to make the game more exciting, because there are no defensive 2 Base Maxouts with no chance to engage.
6. Is the current total cost of 100/100 too cheap/expensive?
I think it is fine.
7. Recently, ravagers changed and became unarmored. Do you agree?
I am not sure, maybe it needs more Counter-Units, but than Terran have Multiple hard-Counter to the Ravager, Toss will have one Hard and one Softcounter. Maybe make it a little smaller, so AOE will do damage to more Ravager.
8. The current morph time from roach to ravager is 9 seconds. Is this too fast? Too slow?
It is fine, maybe you can adjust this to do only a little nerf.
9. Do you see the ravager as a support unit and/or a siege unit?
It is both in my opinion
It has 9 Range on the Bile-Shot, with no Upgrade atm to make it a 13 range. So the Ravager can engage Tanks but gets a hit or maybe two. Also Lurker and Exploding Suns can hit them when they try to fire the Shot. I think this causes an interesting playstyle with more action.
10. Is the damage and/or splash from corrosive bile too much?
I agree with some other posters, that the damage vs Structures is to high atm
11. If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why?
First, one point i have not seen in this thread. The Corrosive Bile generates an attack-information to the enemy. That happens before the Bile makes damage at the unit or the structure. My simple question is: Why?
That is the only "Spell-Cast" which does this. I would be happy if this will be patched out or patched in for other units like the Liberator. If a Liberator goes in siegemode, I only recognize after the first Dronekill or if i have seen it before on the map.
If I target something with the Bile, everybody gets the chance to avoid damage. This will maybe not affect bronze - gold / Platin-league, but if a player is on top of his apm, he will easily dodge almost every bileshot on important units like the Warpprism or Liberator.
I know this will be a slight buff, but then we have to balance it otherwise I think. This mechanic is not well implemented if you compare it to all other units.
On the Nerf-side i would implement a upgrade for the Roachwarren like the Lurkerden on T1. So the enemy can see what the Zerg will build and can do his counterthings vs Ravager. Also i would Nerf the Bile a little, maybe damage-reduce or Cooldown-increase.
After all this, i want to apologize for the many many spelling-mistakes, this is not my main-language, but i tried my best.
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On November 26 2015 03:54 MufffinMan wrote:
After all this, i want to apologize for the many many spelling-mistakes, this is not my main-language, but i tried my best.
No worries, thanks for your input.
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1. How do you feel about the ravager design in general?
Best unit for SC2 since the introduction of the Viper. Possibly even better.
2. Do you feel that the ravager has a place in each matchup?
Yes. I could see its usefulness fade against bio Terrans however, it's not that good against in big number fights.
3. Is corrosive bile better versus forcefields or structures/units?
Structures/units as the spell was obviously designed to. That it can kill forcefields has been the little sidekick that blizzard only mentioned somewhere in the revelation video, but people circlejerked it up as if the 60damage part had only been patched in yesterday.
4. Is the current tech requirement of a roach warren fine, or should the requirements change to access the ravager?
Not sure. In my opinion way too much stuff comes way too early in LotV, but it's not more out of proportion than e.g. the HotS-oracle or the LotV-liberator.
5. Do you think the ravager has too many roles?
No, most of its roles become a bit mediocre. That's what makes units an option (think stalkers, mutas, marines, roaches), when they can do a ton of stuff without having to rely on 15support units or only coming into play because your opponent played "that one thing they are good against".
6. Is the current total cost of 100/100 too cheap/expensive?
The cost are fine. Production might be an issue.
7. Recently, ravagers changed and became unarmored. Do you agree?
It makes sense that the ravager is not countered by the same units as the roach is.
8. The current morph time from roach to ravager is 9 seconds. Is this too fast? Too slow?
I think this should be nerfed. Morphing units barely (not) finishing for battle creates a lot of tension with zerg, ravagers don't have too much of that.
9. Do you see the ravager as a support unit and/or a siege unit?
It's a good unit, amongst other roles having the ability to siege. But I definitely don't see it as support unit at the moment, if anything as a complement.
10. Is the damage and/or splash from corrosive bile too much?
The damage vs pylons is 340 damage short. Against depots and real defenses that cost real money and require real strategic thinking it could be too high.
11. If you could change anything on the ravager, what would it be and why?
Lots of tweaks:
Damage point to 0 (dps nerfed by ~10% or so as a tradeoff)
+2 seconds on the bile cooldown.
A few seconds morph-time more, e.g. ~4
Corrosive bile damage changed to 55(+345 vs pylons).
Maybe roll in the higher-than-basic speed into the roach-speed upgrade.
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