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Fezvez's' Co-op guide and hero review - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
February 01 2016 21:18 GMT
#241
Personally as Vorazun I like either full DT (works sometimes against P and Z) or DA/chargelot. No problems on Brutal. To me it seemed easier than any air comp and faster to get.
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
February 01 2016 22:00 GMT
#242
On February 02 2016 06:18 Tuczniak wrote:
Personally as Vorazun I like either full DT (works sometimes against P and Z) or DA/chargelot. No problems on Brutal. To me it seemed easier than any air comp and faster to get.

But how do you kill the air waves in Void Launch? (No sarcasm, it's just that that's what we were discussing)
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
February 02 2016 04:37 GMT
#243
With Vorazun, I usually go pure air for the void launch. It's the only mission where I get void rays. I start with void rays, relying on the shadow guard for the first wave and rocks (as usual). If I see, after the first wave, that my ally isn't doing anything to prep for the second, and I don't get their assurance that they will be able to hold for the second, I think what I do is save energy for shadow guard again. (I haven't played her in a while so I don't remember if you can have enough energy for the first two). But by the time the shuttles + third wave comes, you should have a decent amount of void rays.

Once I have a few void rays out, I start going a bit heavy on corsairs until I have a good bunch of them. Then I basically spend my resources evenly on voids and corsairs. After about the mid way point, I have the oracle upgrades so I start getting them too. It's good to have your voids, corsairs, and oracles all in different groups since they can play pretty different roles. One of the really great things to do with oracles, once you have that research available that lets you hit units in stasis ward, is to stasis ward the crap out of the giant wave entrances. The giant waves of enemies generally appear right in front of their bases; once you get a good idea of where they are, you'll know where to place the stasis wards. Then your voids can just annihilate a frozen army.

This is actually one of the maps where I go really oracle heavy sometimes. I usually get them in other missions when I need detection. But here, it's really good to litter the map with stasis wards.
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
February 02 2016 11:21 GMT
#244
Completely agree with Bottle. Vorazun's air is perfect for Void Launch. What I generally do is a two stargate opener adding on a third once my expo is up, building mainly voids with 3-4 oracles and 8-12 corsairs for support. You don't need that many support units, corsairs never die once you research cloak and oracles regen energy pretty quickly. Once I've gotten a decent army I take out the right side base and expand there, which lets me throw down a couple more stargates and camp two of the shuttle bays with cloaked cannons. Makes the map rather trivial.
It's pretty hard to get the first bonus on this map with this strategy (you usually won't have enough to defend the research vessel and kill the shuttles) but you can actually recall the vessel with your Dark Pylons, which makes things a lot easier.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-02 19:02:28
February 02 2016 19:02 GMT
#245
On February 02 2016 13:37 The Bottle wrote:
With Vorazun, I usually go pure air for the void launch. It's the only mission where I get void rays. I start with void rays, relying on the shadow guard for the first wave and rocks (as usual). If I see, after the first wave, that my ally isn't doing anything to prep for the second, and I don't get their assurance that they will be able to hold for the second, I think what I do is save energy for shadow guard again. (I haven't played her in a while so I don't remember if you can have enough energy for the first two). But by the time the shuttles + third wave comes, you should have a decent amount of void rays.

Once I have a few void rays out, I start going a bit heavy on corsairs until I have a good bunch of them. Then I basically spend my resources evenly on voids and corsairs. After about the mid way point, I have the oracle upgrades so I start getting them too. It's good to have your voids, corsairs, and oracles all in different groups since they can play pretty different roles. One of the really great things to do with oracles, once you have that research available that lets you hit units in stasis ward, is to stasis ward the crap out of the giant wave entrances. The giant waves of enemies generally appear right in front of their bases; once you get a good idea of where they are, you'll know where to place the stasis wards. Then your voids can just annihilate a frozen army.

This is actually one of the maps where I go really oracle heavy sometimes. I usually get them in other missions when I need detection. But here, it's really good to litter the map with stasis wards.

I don't think Shadow Guard come off cooldown in time for the second wave, but if an ally is playing on Brutal they probably know how to call down their own special units.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
February 02 2016 19:22 GMT
#246
On February 03 2016 04:02 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2016 13:37 The Bottle wrote:
With Vorazun, I usually go pure air for the void launch. It's the only mission where I get void rays. I start with void rays, relying on the shadow guard for the first wave and rocks (as usual). If I see, after the first wave, that my ally isn't doing anything to prep for the second, and I don't get their assurance that they will be able to hold for the second, I think what I do is save energy for shadow guard again. (I haven't played her in a while so I don't remember if you can have enough energy for the first two). But by the time the shuttles + third wave comes, you should have a decent amount of void rays.

Once I have a few void rays out, I start going a bit heavy on corsairs until I have a good bunch of them. Then I basically spend my resources evenly on voids and corsairs. After about the mid way point, I have the oracle upgrades so I start getting them too. It's good to have your voids, corsairs, and oracles all in different groups since they can play pretty different roles. One of the really great things to do with oracles, once you have that research available that lets you hit units in stasis ward, is to stasis ward the crap out of the giant wave entrances. The giant waves of enemies generally appear right in front of their bases; once you get a good idea of where they are, you'll know where to place the stasis wards. Then your voids can just annihilate a frozen army.

This is actually one of the maps where I go really oracle heavy sometimes. I usually get them in other missions when I need detection. But here, it's really good to litter the map with stasis wards.

I don't think Shadow Guard come off cooldown in time for the second wave, but if an ally is playing on Brutal they probably know how to call down their own special units.

I can confirm.
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
February 05 2016 22:05 GMT
#247
I've been playing Kerrigan a lot recently, and I've almost entirely given up on hydras in favor of queens. It never feels like there's enough air to justify getting such squishy units when I could be getting lurkers or ultras with that gas instead. Queens take care of most air easily (and do much better against banshees than hydras) but also have the ability to heal and spread creep. If you thought transfusing ultras was good, then try it on Kerrigan, she's basically invincible. On offensive maps I generally make one or two omega networks to hold the queens and then just pop them out wherever they're needed, while on defensive maps they do very well healing all the crawlers and lurkers I make. Void Launch actually becomes pretty trivial when you've got 20+ lurkers shredding the hybrid waves, 30+ spores shooting down the shuttles, and 15+ queens healing it all up.
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 08:25:06
February 06 2016 08:24 GMT
#248
On February 02 2016 07:00 fezvez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2016 06:18 Tuczniak wrote:
Personally as Vorazun I like either full DT (works sometimes against P and Z) or DA/chargelot. No problems on Brutal. To me it seemed easier than any air comp and faster to get.

But how do you kill the air waves in Void Launch? (No sarcasm, it's just that that's what we were discussing)
DA and cannons are enough. The leviathans are pesky, but it's doable even if ally doesn't help. Mind control on their AA helps, vortex and timestop also.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
February 06 2016 21:34 GMT
#249
I haven't tried queen heavy Kerrigan, but it sounds good since it frees up so much gas (especially hydra den upgrades. You'd only really need the lurker range one) for mass Ultras. Another nice thing is the Queen + Omega Worm combo, where you can get the creep tumor passive more easily

Frenzy Hydras on creep just look so cool though...
Trucy Wright is hot
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 23:35:40
February 06 2016 22:52 GMT
#250
On February 07 2016 06:34 Purind wrote:
Frenzy Hydras on creep just look so cool though...

Yeah. Unfortunately they just die way too quick. Even with +20 health hybrids/seekers/storms wreck them. There's also the problem of getting them all to fire at once, since you generally don't want to stutter-step in like marines, easy way to get them killed. Lurkers and Torrasques don't have nearly the same difficulties but do equal or better amounts of damage.
AzureD
Profile Joined September 2010
United States320 Posts
February 08 2016 19:29 GMT
#251
Mostly been playing as Karax. Tried a couple of different builds but I found Immortals to be the best most of the time except on missions like Void Launch. Early on when you have low levels I just use cannon with Energizer and shield battery support. Mass Immortals work on every mission except Void Launch once you get shadow cannons.

You do not really need any other units except Immortals and any extra minerals are spent on cannons. I guess you could get Energizer with them but that just means you have 1 less Immortal with shadow cannons. It is also really fun to play with the massive pew pew pew you do. I have hit 200 supply sometimes since most of the time I never lose a single Immortal throughout the entire mission on Brutal. They live up to their namesake.

Immortals are one of the few units which you seem to be getting a good deal on the cost since they are vastly more powerful than Artanis Immortals.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
February 09 2016 01:43 GMT
#252
I've been massing colossus or carriers, pushing with instant build cannons/shield batteries as my mineral sink. With Karax, you really don't want to lose a single gas unit which is totally do-able because his abilities are so powerful that you can murder entire waves before the battle even begins

On the train mission, I build a handful of immortals to help out with the 2nd train, relying pretty heavily on my ally for the first train. I always do forge openings, building 2 cannons to kill the rocks and 1 cannon to defend wave 1, so I'm slow on my tech and can't get units out to kill the first train. That's really the most uncomfortable situation for me.

On Void Launch, I build 4 cannons for the first shuttle wave, using Solar Lance (or ally) to kill the enemy wave. I tech to carriers and build some cannons/shield batteries by each warp conduit. I find Carriers not good/not bad on that mission. I can see the value of immortals, sniping shuttles and hybrid. I just find carriers a nice unit to just move around and defend different parts of the map

I find mass immortals really nice for the Archangel and Pirate ship bonus objectives.

I'm not really sure what unit I like most from him. It's almost like the units are only there to clean up whatever my abilities don't kill
Trucy Wright is hot
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
February 09 2016 02:46 GMT
#253
Karax immortals are the first "decent" unit he gets. They are tanky enough so that you can manage to lose none, they are versatile enough to take care of any problems, they are easily accessible (not too high tech) and it's my recommended go-to unit.

The thing is that Karax army is never the crux of what he can offer, and if you manage to do well enough with your static defense + Solar Core, you can actually start to build whatever you want with your gas (colossus, carriers), which require even less micro than immortals.
AzureD
Profile Joined September 2010
United States320 Posts
February 11 2016 19:52 GMT
#254
I do not think Collosus are worth it because they can not shoot air and they come out a little too slowly for the firepower you get. Usually it seems like you just want an all-purpose unit because you can not really afford to get a mix of units So Carriers or Immortals seem like the best options. While Carriers are slow they can handle anything by themselves.
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
February 11 2016 20:24 GMT
#255
Immortals are definitely Karax's best use of gas. Colossus are pretty redundant because Orbital Strike and Lance already take care of all his AOE needs, while Carriers are just so slow to get started, you'll end up getting carried (hah) through the entire first half of the game. Immortals complement the rest of Karax's abilities quite nicely by serving as a tanky meatshield to hold opposing enemies in place while you Orbital Strike them and by destroying the high health enemies (hybrids and capital ships mostly) that Strike can't deal with energy-effectively.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
February 15 2016 17:46 GMT
#256
I've been playing queen heavy Kerrigan and I like it way more than ling heavy. Lings are so frustrating to use. I'd often end games at 80 supply because lings just get chewed up and Kerrigan doesn't have the same remaxing power as say Raynor or Zagara. Even if I go with hydra compositions, I still spam queens. Queens aren't the hydra replacement for me, they are the zergling mineral sink replacement

Just remember to keep them in omega worms. Walking them into an enemy base is so awkward

Kerrigan was by far my worst. I still don't like her but atleast her playstyle makes more sense to me now
Trucy Wright is hot
The Bottle
Profile Joined July 2010
242 Posts
February 15 2016 18:01 GMT
#257
I agree with that last bit. I found Raynor and Kerrigan to be the hardest heroes to play, which is counter intuitive, given that they are labelled as for beginners. Zagara and Vorazun, who are labelled "advanced", are the easiest.

Of all of them, Raynor is probably my worst, and the one I have hardest time with. On offensive missions where all you do is spam infantry, with 15+ barracks and 5+ CCs, it's pretty easy. But for temple defense, or other cases where you want to add other things into the mix, he becomes a macro nightmare. I think he has the highest skill ceiling. But you can also do awesome things with him. I saw one guy go pure mech with Raynor on the train mission, and I loved it. He littered the map with spider mines, got these big tank/bunker lines for the trains, and a whole bunch of banshees.

Since I got all the achievements in co-op, I have stuck mainly to Swann, Karax, and Zagara. I have been too lazy to get really good at other heroes. Though maybe at some point I'll give Raynor a spin again, and try to do some cool diverse strats, such as mech Raynor.
Xsyq
Profile Joined December 2015
143 Posts
February 16 2016 04:23 GMT
#258
Lings with Kerrigan are a bit funny. Normally they're the meatshields while your other units deal damage, but Kerrigan's lings do so much damage (20 DPS each when fully upgraded) you actually want to keep them alive as long as possible (trivial with Artanis, hard with anyone else). I've had great success with raptor torrasque compositions though, they do very well on every map. Just remember to send in the ultras first to tank shots and add in queens and spores as needed for AA. Since your ultras never die you'll eventually end up with a gas surplus that you can spend on hydras/lurkers/more nydus networks.

Mech Raynor is a bit strange as well. His tanks are extremely mobile, but completely outclassed by Swann's Maelstrom tanks with Hercules' drops. What he really has going for him are his Vultures. Spider Mines are fantastic at breaking up incoming attack waves for your Siege Tanks, while the afterburner research allows Vultures to cross the map in seconds (8+ speed, fastest unit in the game). Of course, there's no actual factory anti-air for Raynor, so you'll have a much harder time dealing with banshees and such than with pure bio. Vikings/Marines + their upgrades take a lot of gas away from armory upgrades and tank production.

fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
February 16 2016 10:19 GMT
#259
I've been trying fun composition these past weeks. It's one of the benefits of having lvl 15 players everywhere. Swann mass wraith (really meh), Artanis mass phoenix (okayish), Kerrigan queen/brood lord (hard to play) etc... It's quite fun to shake things up a little


Another thing is testing how good you are at macro. In Void Launch (air map) try to take a third. I find it challenging.

Since I got all the achievements in co-op


Wow, good job, I don't have the patience to go through the slow grind
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
February 19 2016 16:00 GMT
#260
The slow grind achievements aren't too bad if you enjoy playing that commander. I don't like playing Kerrigan so that one was a grind for me. I like Artanis, I'm pretty close to getting his achievement and it wasn't even a grind for me. I think it helps to play different commanders all the time so that you kinda spread out your slow grind achievements (play 5 games with Kerri, play a few with Vorazun, then play some Swann, then some Artanis, then some Swann again.... etc... so you have some variety)

I just need Zagara's 100 roach kill and Artanis' 5k warp-ins. I think both should be pretty easy

If there were 2 more commanders and about double the number of maps, the game would be really fun. I like the design of it a lot. I wouldn't even mind if they made multiple versions of the same concept (two maps that are both Void Thrashing for example)
Trucy Wright is hot
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