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On February 18 2015 03:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Arguing for the warpgate mechanic change at this point is like someone arguing to remove lift from terran buildings and making it an upgrade. Both will never happen.
"That will never happen" is not a good way of thinking when you want to change things d:
On February 18 2015 03:43 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:38 Tuczniak wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Current warpgate is the core design flaw of protoss. You will always end up discussing warpgate when talking about protoss design. I'm not sure it will be as game-breaking in the future, however. 200% damage taken while warping in AND doubling the warp in time should have serious ramifications on counter play and map presence to stop the Protoss aggression before it ever really gets started, especially if Zerg begin to create combat units before the attack gets to their side of the map. Not to mention that Warp Prism harass won't give nearly "guaranteed" damage anymore, at least not to the same degree it does now.
Well yeah that's the main thing now, they are nerfing warpgate so much that it loses most of its specifity/interest, and all P players will use warpgate as standard gates, warping in units at home. While we could have gateways to produce units, and the ability to turn them into warpgates with quick warp-in time and normal damage taken BUT with a significantly higher cooldown.
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Canada13425 Posts
On February 18 2015 03:56 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:41 BisuDagger wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Arguing for the warpgate mechanic change at this point is like someone arguing to remove lift from terran buildings and making it an upgrade. Both will never happen. "That will never happen" is not a good way of thinking when you want to change things d: Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:43 Lunareste wrote:On February 18 2015 03:38 Tuczniak wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Current warpgate is the core design flaw of protoss. You will always end up discussing warpgate when talking about protoss design. I'm not sure it will be as game-breaking in the future, however. 200% damage taken while warping in AND doubling the warp in time should have serious ramifications on counter play and map presence to stop the Protoss aggression before it ever really gets started, especially if Zerg begin to create combat units before the attack gets to their side of the map. Not to mention that Warp Prism harass won't give nearly "guaranteed" damage anymore, at least not to the same degree it does now. Well yeah that's the main thing now, they are nerfing warpgate so much that it loses most of its specifity/interest, and all P players will use warpgate as standard gates, warping in units at home. While we could have gateways to produce units, and the ability to turn them into warpgates with quick warp-in time and normal damage taken BUT with a significantly higher cooldown.
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. It sets protoss apart as a macro mechanic.
If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming.
I do think they need to make it so that protoss doesnt take increased damage as a defender, but we will see. I fear for trying to defend as protoss with the extra damage on my units, will make it tough.
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On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:56 OtherWorld wrote:On February 18 2015 03:41 BisuDagger wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Arguing for the warpgate mechanic change at this point is like someone arguing to remove lift from terran buildings and making it an upgrade. Both will never happen. "That will never happen" is not a good way of thinking when you want to change things d: On February 18 2015 03:43 Lunareste wrote:On February 18 2015 03:38 Tuczniak wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Current warpgate is the core design flaw of protoss. You will always end up discussing warpgate when talking about protoss design. I'm not sure it will be as game-breaking in the future, however. 200% damage taken while warping in AND doubling the warp in time should have serious ramifications on counter play and map presence to stop the Protoss aggression before it ever really gets started, especially if Zerg begin to create combat units before the attack gets to their side of the map. Not to mention that Warp Prism harass won't give nearly "guaranteed" damage anymore, at least not to the same degree it does now. Well yeah that's the main thing now, they are nerfing warpgate so much that it loses most of its specifity/interest, and all P players will use warpgate as standard gates, warping in units at home. While we could have gateways to produce units, and the ability to turn them into warpgates with quick warp-in time and normal damage taken BUT with a significantly higher cooldown. No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. It sets protoss apart as a macro mechanic. If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming. I do think they need to make it so that protoss doesnt take increased damage as a defender, but we will see. I fear for trying to defend as protoss with the extra damage on my units, will make it tough.
I'm absolutely not saying that it is broken, I'm talking about design. I am precisely saying that with the increased damage warp ins will be less powerful and thus most P players won't use it and just sit at home and defend, which in my opinion kills what warp-ins were for in the first place.
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On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Seriously...?
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On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Even though Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are competent designers, it does not mean they only make correct decisions.
Many a times has it been pointed out that Warp Gate is a flawed mechanic. The only reason that Protoss is not completely broken is that they compensated this flawed mechanic with a lot of other(more or less flawed) mechanics that they absolutely HAVE to have, otherwise the design falls.
Weaker warpgate units are a result of warpgates, forcefields are a result of weak warpgate units, robo tech being restricted to "where AoE and roachkillers come from" is a result of forcefields being so strong and so on.
The argument that warpgate is part of the protoss feel is weak. Yes, warping is something protoss has in it, but it's more like a lore type of thing. If you ask people about "what is protoss?" it's not "oh it's the race that can produce units everywhere and negate reinforcement distance!", they say "oh its those high-tech aliens that rely on strong units tightly packed together as well as psy abilities".
Just to make sure: I'm not arguing that Protoss is OP, broken or imbalanced. It's not about that. It's about a certain playstyle being forced upon protoss players through bad design. I think a redesign of certain core mechanics of Protoss(and maybe Zerg/Terran to shake those up as well) would do great work for the fun of the game.
After all, this IS the last iteration of the game. It's the "final Starcraft 2".
If it's not going to change now, it's never going to change.
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On February 18 2015 01:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 01:34 Grumbels wrote:2. Scan range adjustment. If you haven't watched the below video, it will explain scan range very well, but the gist of it is that units have a range at which they can attack, and a range at which they select a target to attack. Currently, the latter is often the same as the former, which means that units issued an attack-move command will often overstep beyond their actual range to attack before the scan 'pulses' and they select a target. This is why you frequently see things like non-pro players losing Stalkers to Widow Mines, despite the fact that they outrange them. Honestly, unless there is a significant barrier to it, I hope this change actually gets brought in during HotS, because it's such a huge quality of life improvement at all play levels. I don't get this. No matter the scan range issue: You attack move with units. They attack. Also, when you attack move into widow mines they'll activate. Now for "quality of life" when you attack move into widow mines they shouldn't activate. Isn't that just a balance change, not a quality of life change? It has more to do with consistency in unit behavior than with balance tbh.
Its inconsistent unit behavior that currently effects balance
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It's much bigger than just the mines, it'll make kiting vs everything easier, you don't have to right click the marines and potentially overkill, you can just move back, a move, move back, a move.
When u're in blink engagements and u blink back, stalkers will now re-engage into battle, you don't have to order them to do this once more.
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On February 18 2015 04:27 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Even though Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are competent designers, it does not mean they only make correct decisions. Many a times has it been pointed out that Warp Gate is a flawed mechanic. The only reason that Protoss is not completely broken is that they compensated this flawed mechanic with a lot of other(more or less flawed) mechanics that they absolutely HAVE to have, otherwise the design falls. Weaker warpgate units are a result of warpgates, forcefields are a result of weak warpgate units, robo tech being restricted to "where AoE and roachkillers come from" is a result of forcefields being so strong and so on. The argument that warpgate is part of the protoss feel is weak. Yes, warping is something protoss has in it, but it's more like a lore type of thing. If you ask people about "what is protoss?" it's not "oh it's the race that can produce units everywhere and negate reinforcement distance!", they say "oh its those high-tech aliens that rely on strong units tightly packed together as well as psy abilities". Just to make sure: I'm not arguing that Protoss is OP, broken or imbalanced. It's not about that. It's about a certain playstyle being forced upon protoss players through bad design. I think a redesign of certain core mechanics of Protoss(and maybe Zerg/Terran to shake those up as well) would do great work for the fun of the game. After all, this IS the last iteration of the game. It's the "final Starcraft 2". If it's not going to change now, it's never going to change.
Warpgate is the most fun mechanic that protoss has. If you don't have that, then you might as well play terran mech and camp for 1 hour every single game.
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On February 18 2015 04:46 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 04:27 KeksX wrote:On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Even though Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are competent designers, it does not mean they only make correct decisions. Many a times has it been pointed out that Warp Gate is a flawed mechanic. The only reason that Protoss is not completely broken is that they compensated this flawed mechanic with a lot of other(more or less flawed) mechanics that they absolutely HAVE to have, otherwise the design falls. Weaker warpgate units are a result of warpgates, forcefields are a result of weak warpgate units, robo tech being restricted to "where AoE and roachkillers come from" is a result of forcefields being so strong and so on. The argument that warpgate is part of the protoss feel is weak. Yes, warping is something protoss has in it, but it's more like a lore type of thing. If you ask people about "what is protoss?" it's not "oh it's the race that can produce units everywhere and negate reinforcement distance!", they say "oh its those high-tech aliens that rely on strong units tightly packed together as well as psy abilities". Just to make sure: I'm not arguing that Protoss is OP, broken or imbalanced. It's not about that. It's about a certain playstyle being forced upon protoss players through bad design. I think a redesign of certain core mechanics of Protoss(and maybe Zerg/Terran to shake those up as well) would do great work for the fun of the game. After all, this IS the last iteration of the game. It's the "final Starcraft 2". If it's not going to change now, it's never going to change. Warpgate is the most fun mechanic that protoss has. If you don't have that, then you might as well play terran mech and camp for 1 hour every single game.
I don't know what Terran Mech has to do with that, but I'd argue that as a mechanic it's only fun because it can be ridiculously strong against new players, on a pro level it's just another macro mechanic like any other(except for those situations where a Protoss warps in 10000 units in his enemy's base, in which case yeah of course thats fun, but that doesn't mean it should be in).
There are plenty of other fun mechanics for protoss, and getting rid of warpgate would make room for a lot more. You don't even HAVE to get rid of it. I'm sure there can be a change to it's core design that makes it viable somehow.
Quick idea: Increase the warpin time for a unit based off its distance to the warp gate. Standard time if you warp in near your base, increased warp in time if it's at the other side of the map. Would bring back reinforcement distance, just make it look different.
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Bisutopia19386 Posts
On February 18 2015 04:46 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 04:27 KeksX wrote:On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Even though Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are competent designers, it does not mean they only make correct decisions. Many a times has it been pointed out that Warp Gate is a flawed mechanic. The only reason that Protoss is not completely broken is that they compensated this flawed mechanic with a lot of other(more or less flawed) mechanics that they absolutely HAVE to have, otherwise the design falls. Weaker warpgate units are a result of warpgates, forcefields are a result of weak warpgate units, robo tech being restricted to "where AoE and roachkillers come from" is a result of forcefields being so strong and so on. The argument that warpgate is part of the protoss feel is weak. Yes, warping is something protoss has in it, but it's more like a lore type of thing. If you ask people about "what is protoss?" it's not "oh it's the race that can produce units everywhere and negate reinforcement distance!", they say "oh its those high-tech aliens that rely on strong units tightly packed together as well as psy abilities". Just to make sure: I'm not arguing that Protoss is OP, broken or imbalanced. It's not about that. It's about a certain playstyle being forced upon protoss players through bad design. I think a redesign of certain core mechanics of Protoss(and maybe Zerg/Terran to shake those up as well) would do great work for the fun of the game. After all, this IS the last iteration of the game. It's the "final Starcraft 2". If it's not going to change now, it's never going to change. Warpgate is the most fun mechanic that protoss has. If you don't have that, then you might as well play terran mech and camp for 1 hour every single game.
I agree warpgate is pretty fun. There's so much to expand on with it instead of discussing how to limit it. This is an absolute insane idea that is in no way feasible but at least is something new. What if you can create warp pylon? They have 2.5x the warp in area but units are bound to the area of the warp pylon. Warped units change shade to indicate that they are bounded. Warp pylons can connect to create large walk areas. Units can teleport between warp pylons weakened by warp out/in time. Warp units can free themselves of the area by warping to a nexus. Warp pylon also grants additional shields and regeneration to units bounded.
Above is the kind of insane shit that should be theorized on how to advance warp tech instead of nerf it.
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On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:56 OtherWorld wrote:On February 18 2015 03:41 BisuDagger wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Arguing for the warpgate mechanic change at this point is like someone arguing to remove lift from terran buildings and making it an upgrade. Both will never happen. "That will never happen" is not a good way of thinking when you want to change things d: On February 18 2015 03:43 Lunareste wrote:On February 18 2015 03:38 Tuczniak wrote:On February 18 2015 03:26 RampancyTW wrote:
I can't believe people are still complaining about gateway units/warpgate
Protoss units are large and typically low DPS
Gateway units are fine, they just scale poorly due to low damage output per surface area, so they need to be supported by AOE in later stages of the game
Current warpgate is the core design flaw of protoss. You will always end up discussing warpgate when talking about protoss design. I'm not sure it will be as game-breaking in the future, however. 200% damage taken while warping in AND doubling the warp in time should have serious ramifications on counter play and map presence to stop the Protoss aggression before it ever really gets started, especially if Zerg begin to create combat units before the attack gets to their side of the map. Not to mention that Warp Prism harass won't give nearly "guaranteed" damage anymore, at least not to the same degree it does now. Well yeah that's the main thing now, they are nerfing warpgate so much that it loses most of its specifity/interest, and all P players will use warpgate as standard gates, warping in units at home. While we could have gateways to produce units, and the ability to turn them into warpgates with quick warp-in time and normal damage taken BUT with a significantly higher cooldown. No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. It sets protoss apart as a macro mechanic. If it was so absolutely broken it would have been removed long before now. The increased damage change makes warp prism warp ins less powerful if the defending player see it coming. I do think they need to make it so that protoss doesnt take increased damage as a defender, but we will see. I fear for trying to defend as protoss with the extra damage on my units, will make it tough.
Yeah I agree warpgates set P apart and I quite like it. I'd like gateways to be an alternative but the current change is really bad ; it's a straight up nerf without any compensation. They have to be more creative.
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On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss.
Yes, Blizzard. Not players. Of course if you don't want to modify something, the first thing to do is to decree that this thing is essential and critical and untouchable. But the existence of SC1 Protoss without Warpgate completely denies the idea that Protoss without Warpgate wouldn't be Protoss. In fact, many arguments could be made about why Protoss without Warpgate would be even more Protoss-ish. The main contribution of HotS to Zerg is the Swarm host, yet no one would think about stating that SHosts are absolutely critical to the identity of Zerg, nor that "Zerg wouldn't be Zerg without the Swarm host". Removing it (at least in its current form) would, on the contrary, restore a certain Zerg identity. The same could be said about Warpgate. The theme of a technologically advanced race, relying on individually powerful units, mastering teleportation and whatnot—in short Protoss—can totally exist without Warpgate in its current form.
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On February 18 2015 05:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. Yes, Blizzard. Not players. Of course if you don't want to modify something, the first thing to do is to decree that this thing is essential and critical and untouchable. But the existence of SC1 Protoss without Warpgate completely denies the idea that Protoss without Warpgate wouldn't be Protoss. In fact, many arguments could be made about why Protoss without Warpgate would be even more Protoss-ish. The main contribution of HotS to Zerg is the Swarm host, yet no one would think about stating that SHosts are absolutely critical to the identity of Zerg, nor that "Zerg wouldn't be Zerg without the Swarm host". Removing it (at least in its current form) would, on the contrary, restore a certain Zerg identity. The same could be said about Warpgate. The theme of a technologically advanced race, relying on individually powerful units, mastering teleportation and whatnot—in short Protoss—can totally exist without Warpgate in its current form.
All balance/design considerations aside, warpgate is the main reason why I chose Protoss at the beginning (the other being the buildings constructing on their own ^^). Being able to teleport units wherever you have a pylon is BADASS. OK this may not be the best thing design wise, but P without warpgate is just similar to T without the subtlety of add-ons. I think Blizzard are right (for once) to try to make this mechanic work rather than removing it.
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On February 18 2015 05:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 05:38 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. Yes, Blizzard. Not players. Of course if you don't want to modify something, the first thing to do is to decree that this thing is essential and critical and untouchable. But the existence of SC1 Protoss without Warpgate completely denies the idea that Protoss without Warpgate wouldn't be Protoss. In fact, many arguments could be made about why Protoss without Warpgate would be even more Protoss-ish. The main contribution of HotS to Zerg is the Swarm host, yet no one would think about stating that SHosts are absolutely critical to the identity of Zerg, nor that "Zerg wouldn't be Zerg without the Swarm host". Removing it (at least in its current form) would, on the contrary, restore a certain Zerg identity. The same could be said about Warpgate. The theme of a technologically advanced race, relying on individually powerful units, mastering teleportation and whatnot—in short Protoss—can totally exist without Warpgate in its current form. All balance/design considerations aside, warpgate is the main reason why I chose Protoss at the beginning (the other being the buildings constructing on their own ^^). Being able to teleport units wherever you have a pylon is BADASS. OK this may not be the best thing design wise, but P without warpgate is just similar to T without the subtlety of add-ons. I think Blizzard are right (for once) to try to make this mechanic work rather than removing it.
I guess it's somewhat iconic, but I mean so was the mothership and they essentially removed that as well - for the better of the game.
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On February 18 2015 06:10 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 05:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 18 2015 05:38 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. Yes, Blizzard. Not players. Of course if you don't want to modify something, the first thing to do is to decree that this thing is essential and critical and untouchable. But the existence of SC1 Protoss without Warpgate completely denies the idea that Protoss without Warpgate wouldn't be Protoss. In fact, many arguments could be made about why Protoss without Warpgate would be even more Protoss-ish. The main contribution of HotS to Zerg is the Swarm host, yet no one would think about stating that SHosts are absolutely critical to the identity of Zerg, nor that "Zerg wouldn't be Zerg without the Swarm host". Removing it (at least in its current form) would, on the contrary, restore a certain Zerg identity. The same could be said about Warpgate. The theme of a technologically advanced race, relying on individually powerful units, mastering teleportation and whatnot—in short Protoss—can totally exist without Warpgate in its current form. All balance/design considerations aside, warpgate is the main reason why I chose Protoss at the beginning (the other being the buildings constructing on their own ^^). Being able to teleport units wherever you have a pylon is BADASS. OK this may not be the best thing design wise, but P without warpgate is just similar to T without the subtlety of add-ons. I think Blizzard are right (for once) to try to make this mechanic work rather than removing it. I guess it's somewhat iconic, but I mean so was the mothership and they essentially removed that as well - for the better of the game.
? Only vortex was removed, the mothership (the fully fledged one) is very much alive. It's very common in PvZ for instance.
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On February 18 2015 06:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 06:10 KeksX wrote:On February 18 2015 05:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 18 2015 05:38 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2015 04:07 ZeromuS wrote:
No. Blizzard has said warpgates is part of the feel for protoss. Yes, Blizzard. Not players. Of course if you don't want to modify something, the first thing to do is to decree that this thing is essential and critical and untouchable. But the existence of SC1 Protoss without Warpgate completely denies the idea that Protoss without Warpgate wouldn't be Protoss. In fact, many arguments could be made about why Protoss without Warpgate would be even more Protoss-ish. The main contribution of HotS to Zerg is the Swarm host, yet no one would think about stating that SHosts are absolutely critical to the identity of Zerg, nor that "Zerg wouldn't be Zerg without the Swarm host". Removing it (at least in its current form) would, on the contrary, restore a certain Zerg identity. The same could be said about Warpgate. The theme of a technologically advanced race, relying on individually powerful units, mastering teleportation and whatnot—in short Protoss—can totally exist without Warpgate in its current form. All balance/design considerations aside, warpgate is the main reason why I chose Protoss at the beginning (the other being the buildings constructing on their own ^^). Being able to teleport units wherever you have a pylon is BADASS. OK this may not be the best thing design wise, but P without warpgate is just similar to T without the subtlety of add-ons. I think Blizzard are right (for once) to try to make this mechanic work rather than removing it. I guess it's somewhat iconic, but I mean so was the mothership and they essentially removed that as well - for the better of the game. ? Only vortex was removed, the mothership (the fully fledged one) is very much alive. It's very common in PvZ for instance.
Well yeah, but that has been a recent thing, before that it was virtually "nonexistent" and Blizzard had no problem with that. It's not what it was before at all.
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The thing that is "nonexistent" is the carrier, and that's a damn shame.
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On February 18 2015 06:51 ZackAttack wrote:
The thing that is "nonexistent" is the carrier, and that's a damn shame.
Same applies for the battle cruiser. Useless in TvP and TvZ, while very rarely being seen in TvT.
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On February 18 2015 04:27 KeksX wrote:
Many a times has it been pointed out that Warp Gate is a flawed mechanic. The only reason that Protoss is not completely broken is that they compensated this flawed mechanic with a lot of other(more or less flawed) mechanics that they absolutely HAVE to have, otherwise the design falls.
Weaker warpgate units are a result of warpgates, forcefields are a result of weak warpgate units, robo tech being restricted to "where AoE and roachkillers come from" is a result of forcefields being so strong and so on.
It strikes me that there is something really wrong with your thinking on this. Forcefields are not the result of weak warpgate units, they're just a mechanic Blizzard came up with. Robo tech being restricted is just because Blizzard made it that way. And "weaker" warpgate units are because of various other decisions by Blizzard. Etc. You talk about Blizzard as if they are some natural force making perfectly rational design decisions constantly, but that's not true at all. They just implement random things, often based on lore or previous games, with various degrees of incompetence and they also can't predict the future.
So rationally speaking warpgate units being weaker because of warpgate makes sense. But are they actually weaker? It's perfectly possible that warpgate units are hugely powerful due to warpgate and Blizzard just didn't account for this effect.
Also, just imo, but it makes no sense to talk about warpgate units being weak if you don't take warpgate into account, since that's like saying zerglings are useless without metabolic boost (omg, metabolic boost is a crutch!)
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They just implement random things, often based on lore or previous games, with various degrees of incompetence and they also can't predict the future.
So rationally speaking warpgate units being weaker because of warpgate makes sense. But are they actually weaker? It's perfectly possible that warpgate units are hugely powerful due to warpgate and Blizzard just didn't account for this effect.
Thats not true at all. RTS unit design IS a rational thought process. If they just implemented random things and yolo'd their way through it, we'd have something like Age Of Empires 3 or Command & Conquer(funnily enough Browder worked on a title of that series, and you can see his influence on the game is actually kinda like that. C&C sometimes actually felt like a yolo-game in some regards).
RTS Unit design is a complex process. Just look at the new units suggestions from Kim and Browder @ HotS and now LotV. They all justify units by stating problems they're there to solve.
Initial unit design is mostly influenced, as you said, by lore and past iterations. But it's also based on gameplay goals (there was this very specific feeling they wanted to copy from Brood War, they could've gone for the Age of Empires approach as well but they didn't)
You talk about Blizzard as if they are some natural force
They're not a natural force, they're a game company that designs RTS games. Creating those games is a, not completely for obvious reasons but at least partially, rational process.
Forcefields are not the result of weak warpgate units, they're just a mechanic Blizzard came up with.
They came up with it for a reason. Of course there's always the creative part of design, and I agree that thats a heavy thing. But they didn't just said "Okay so sentry unit, it has forcefields that do X, and guardian shield that does Y, and then they also have X values of damage and range". --- I unfortunately do not know their full design process but I imagine there were a lot of things like "Okay, so we need a Protoss unit that fullfills role X and can do Y so we fix problem Z".
Also, just imo, but it makes no sense to talk about warpgate units being weak if you don't take warpgate into account, since that's like saying zerglings are useless without metabolic boost (omg, metabolic boost is a crutch!)
Thats a very good point, but the difference is that I could take out metabolic boost and zerg would still be a viable race(although one thats a lot more limited), and (maybe, just an assumption) I could even rebalance zerglings if I adjusted their values a bit.
Taking out Warp Gate, without doing anything else, would leave Protoss completely broken right now and there'd be almost no value you could adjust to compensate without breaking another part of the game.
and they also can't predict the future.
Thats why we have patches. Nobody expects them to predict the future, the problem here is that Blizzard is not willing to invest into deeper cuts and changes in the gameplay. They only play around with the mechanics currently there.
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