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On November 13 2014 06:47 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 06:41 ejozl wrote:Something else that just came to my mind is that theyre buffing ultralisk armor and at the same time splitting marauders shot up into two. They stated that they want Ultralisks to be a counter to Bio play. The same with the Herc to counter Muta/Bling/Ling. They want more transitioning in the game, so you might start with Bio vs Muta/ling/bane, but then when ultras are added in, u need to add in mech. Ex: the Cyclone that can kite ultras for days, then zerg goes infestor to fungal them, then bc's and blords. They just want ppl to not play the same style all game every game. Accomplishing that by adding hardcounters into the game is just really dumb. You can easily add in units that are better vs some types of units, and thus force different unit composition, while maintaining solid unit interactions. Both the Cyclone and Ultralisk change rewards/forces infinitive kiting which isn't interesting at all. It's really impressive how David Kim and his team have learned so little over all these years.
It is even more impressive how people judge the unit interactions without any solid basis.
We didn't see how it will turn out in the end, holy fuck.
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On November 13 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 06:47 Hider wrote:On November 13 2014 06:41 ejozl wrote:Something else that just came to my mind is that theyre buffing ultralisk armor and at the same time splitting marauders shot up into two. They stated that they want Ultralisks to be a counter to Bio play. The same with the Herc to counter Muta/Bling/Ling. They want more transitioning in the game, so you might start with Bio vs Muta/ling/bane, but then when ultras are added in, u need to add in mech. Ex: the Cyclone that can kite ultras for days, then zerg goes infestor to fungal them, then bc's and blords. They just want ppl to not play the same style all game every game. Accomplishing that by adding hardcounters into the game is just really dumb. You can easily add in units that are better vs some types of units, and thus force different unit composition, while maintaining solid unit interactions. Both the Cyclone and Ultralisk change rewards/forces infinitive kiting which isn't interesting at all. It's really impressive how David Kim and his team have learned so little over all these years. It is even more impressive how people judge the unit interactions without any solid basis. We didn't see how it will turn out in the end, holy !@#$%^&*.
Solid base? Have infinitive kiting every been fun? No. And that is exactly what Blizzard wants to promotoes. What if Blizzard said you got an electric shock whenever you lost a unit. Would you also say there is no basis for saying that isn't fun? I haven't tried that, but I bet it wouldn't.
Some stuff doesn't need to be tested becasue the same concepts have already been tested theoretically and empircally. When Blizzard directly implies they want to balance the game around infinitive kiting, we don't need to see how it works out. Bio vs Ultralisk kiting isn't fun, and Blizzard wants to have even more of that, and Cyclone moving back with the Ultralisk being unable to target it won't be fun either.
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Well cyclone move in 2.75~now.
I dont see cyclone as infinite kiting actually. Lets say the "lock" never ends till out of range or unit dies. What if cyclone do more damage the closer he is etc?
That would require decision and make it somewhat tactical would it not?
I get your point tho i think.
Something else other than kite or stutterstep.
What if hellions got spidermines and could use this versus immortals etc.
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On November 13 2014 07:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 13 2014 06:47 Hider wrote:On November 13 2014 06:41 ejozl wrote:Something else that just came to my mind is that theyre buffing ultralisk armor and at the same time splitting marauders shot up into two. They stated that they want Ultralisks to be a counter to Bio play. The same with the Herc to counter Muta/Bling/Ling. They want more transitioning in the game, so you might start with Bio vs Muta/ling/bane, but then when ultras are added in, u need to add in mech. Ex: the Cyclone that can kite ultras for days, then zerg goes infestor to fungal them, then bc's and blords. They just want ppl to not play the same style all game every game. Accomplishing that by adding hardcounters into the game is just really dumb. You can easily add in units that are better vs some types of units, and thus force different unit composition, while maintaining solid unit interactions. Both the Cyclone and Ultralisk change rewards/forces infinitive kiting which isn't interesting at all. It's really impressive how David Kim and his team have learned so little over all these years. It is even more impressive how people judge the unit interactions without any solid basis. We didn't see how it will turn out in the end, holy !@#$%^&*. Solid base? Have infinitive kiting every been fun? No. And that is exactly what Blizzard wants to promotoes. What if Blizzard said you got an electric shock whenever you lost a unit. Would you also say there is no basis for saying that isn't fun? Some stuff doesn't need to be tested becasue the concepts have already been tested theoretically and empircally.
I am not really sure if it is a bad thing that marauders don't HARDCOUNTER ultras anymore.
So yeah whatever man.
I am also not sure what is bad about kiting, sure the "moving shot" of the cyclone is kinda lame, but i don't see what this has to do with kiting per se.
I am just not sure since when "kiting" is something bad tbh
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On November 13 2014 07:14 Foxxan wrote:
Well cyclone move in 2.75~now.
I dont see cyclone as infinite kiting actually. Lets say the "lock" never ends till out of range or unit dies. What if cyclone do more damage the closer he is etc?
That would require decision and make it somewhat tactical would it not?
I get your point tho i think.
Something else other than kite or stutterstep.
What if hellions got spidermines and could use this versus immortals etc.
9-range and vs Ultralisks off-creep (?) and then after 15 seconds of kiting, 1 ultralisk can get one hit off, while the Cyclones keep moving back. I don't see this interaction being anything but really really bad.
The reason I am very negative on behalf of Blizzard is that it's a far superior option to make the Ultralisk faster and reducing its armor instead of increasing it. Why would you make it even more insane vs Marines?
3.5-3.75 movement speed and 1 starting armor instead of 2 would be my preffered solution. If you want to make it a bit stronger vs bio, then you opt for 3.75 movmeent speed and if you want to make it a equally strong, then you opt for 3.5 speed. So I believe it's very easy to get the desired balance effect by tweaking movement speed while improving the interaction.
On the other hand, an Ultralisk with 3 starting armor is just the anti-thesis of a unit that promotes more engagements.
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On November 13 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:10 Hider wrote:On November 13 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 13 2014 06:47 Hider wrote:On November 13 2014 06:41 ejozl wrote:Something else that just came to my mind is that theyre buffing ultralisk armor and at the same time splitting marauders shot up into two. They stated that they want Ultralisks to be a counter to Bio play. The same with the Herc to counter Muta/Bling/Ling. They want more transitioning in the game, so you might start with Bio vs Muta/ling/bane, but then when ultras are added in, u need to add in mech. Ex: the Cyclone that can kite ultras for days, then zerg goes infestor to fungal them, then bc's and blords. They just want ppl to not play the same style all game every game. Accomplishing that by adding hardcounters into the game is just really dumb. You can easily add in units that are better vs some types of units, and thus force different unit composition, while maintaining solid unit interactions. Both the Cyclone and Ultralisk change rewards/forces infinitive kiting which isn't interesting at all. It's really impressive how David Kim and his team have learned so little over all these years. It is even more impressive how people judge the unit interactions without any solid basis. We didn't see how it will turn out in the end, holy !@#$%^&*. Solid base? Have infinitive kiting every been fun? No. And that is exactly what Blizzard wants to promotoes. What if Blizzard said you got an electric shock whenever you lost a unit. Would you also say there is no basis for saying that isn't fun? Some stuff doesn't need to be tested becasue the concepts have already been tested theoretically and empircally. I am not really sure if it is a bad thing that marauders don't HARDCOUNTER ultras anymore. So yeah whatever man. I am also not sure what is bad about kiting, sure the "moving shot" of the cyclone is kinda lame, but i don't see what this has to do with kiting per se. I am just not sure since when "kiting" is something bad tbh
Marauders don't "hardcounter" ultras to begin with. Did they really say they want "ultras to counter bio"?...
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Poland3748 Posts
Was SC2 LotV multiplayer panel attended by like 20 people or it just looked like that in the video?
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United States4130 Posts
Uhm... the ultralisks have lings with them. The cyclones have to kite/kill the ultra before they are devoured by zerglings.
It's kind of weird to talk about a T3 unit all by itself.
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I dont see it as much of an issue right now since cyclones price are quite high.
Dunno about bio vs ultra. Would be cool if the fight werent entirely about kite kite kite.
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On November 13 2014 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:
Uhm... the ultralisks have lings with them. The cyclones have to kite/kill the ultra before they are devoured by zerglings.
It's kind of weird to talk about a T3 unit all by itself.
How do you micro vs Speedlings?
Answer: You kite.
How do you micro vs Ultralisks and Speedlings?
Answer: You kite
Balancewise, adding in Speedlings changes things around, but the interaction is the same.
The point is that when a zerg transitions away from Muta/bling towards being more Ultralisk-heavy, the interaction gets as its raw stats are too good while it's too slow off-creep which makes it too kiteable. That's at least my diagnosis, and Blizzard's solution only makes the disease even worse.
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United States4130 Posts
On November 13 2014 07:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:
Uhm... the ultralisks have lings with them. The cyclones have to kite/kill the ultra before they are devoured by zerglings.
It's kind of weird to talk about a T3 unit all by itself. How do you micro vs Speedlings? Answer: You kite. How do you micro vs Ultralisks and Speedlings? Answer: You kite Balancewise, adding in Speedlings changes things around, but the interaction is the same. The point is that the more Ultralisks the zerg builds, the worse the interaction gets as its raw stats are too good while it's too slow off-creep which makes it too kiteable. That's at least my diagnosis, and Blizzard's solution only makes the disease even worse.
Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings.
You're acting like this is a 1v1 battle which very rarely happens with Ultralisks, because ultralisks are easily kited when they're alone. That's just as true with bio as it is with the cyclone. Ultralisks need support. There's no reason to talk about Ultralisks without support. It's like talking about Colossus without support. It's pointless and doesn't really give any information about how the units will work in a game.
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United States4130 Posts
They should just make the cyclone a grounded phoenix with the ability to drag air units down to the ground. And then make it protoss unit.
:D
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Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings.
This is somewhat missing the point. I am not talking about whether it's difficult or not to use the Cyclone. I actually believe that adding a high initial learning barrier is not benefical for Starcraft as an esport. Instead, what I want more of is units that have solid interactions against other units, as I believe this goes much better in hand with the easy-to-learn, difficult to master-concept while also being more fun to watch as a viewer.
It's important to note that all good micro-interactions in Sc1 and Sc2 comes from one player micro'ing his units and the enemy reacting to that micro.
Having just one player capable of onemicro'ing and the enemy only being able to a-move and hope to eventually catch up is not fun. That's why it's so important that engagements are not about only-kiting as the "micro" then becomes a "one way"-thing.
Kiting can be fine when it's only a small part about the interaction, and doesn't prevent "actual" engagements from occuring.
That's just as true with bio as it is with the cyclone. Ultralisks need support. There's no reason to talk about Ultralisks without support.
If you ever played a TvZ game with bio, you would know that the way you control your bio units changes quite a lot when the zerg transitions away from muta/bling/muta into a more Ultralisk heavy style. The former rewards actual engagements while the latter is much more constant kite-focussed.
That's why you can indeed talk about how the Ultralisk impacts the interaction.
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United States4130 Posts
On November 13 2014 07:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings. This is somewhat missing the point. I am not talking about whether it's difficult or not to use the Cyclone. When I am talking about interaction, it's a two-way thing. All fgreat micro-interactions in Sc1 and Sc2 comes from one player micro'ing his units and the enemy reacting to that micro. Having just one player capable of onemicro'ing and the enemy only being able to a-move and hope to eventually catch up is not fun. That's why it's so important that engagements are not about only-kiting as the "micro" then becomes a "one way"-thing. Kiting can be fine when it's only a small part about the interaction, and doesn't prevent "actual" engagements from occuring.
The Ultralisk isn't some super-micro unit. It adds beefiness to the zerg army. This is the same from Brood War.
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The more i think about it, the more i want cyclones and disruptors scrapped. Same goes for Herc splash damage.
When i saw the Herc i thought "cool they can be used to snipe long range units like tanks and colossi, while messing with the AI" turns out they are supposed to suicide on banes.
The cyclone i just don't get, it looks cool, but what are they supposed to do?
And disruptors are damn costly, compete with robo production, and they won't hit anything. If they fix that and they do hit stuff, then they going to end games in a very stupid way O_O You bet a ton of gas that the enemy is going to mismicro when you cannot do much about it. Activate, move and pray it hits.
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On November 13 2014 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:46 Hider wrote:Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings. This is somewhat missing the point. I am not talking about whether it's difficult or not to use the Cyclone. When I am talking about interaction, it's a two-way thing. All fgreat micro-interactions in Sc1 and Sc2 comes from one player micro'ing his units and the enemy reacting to that micro. Having just one player capable of onemicro'ing and the enemy only being able to a-move and hope to eventually catch up is not fun. That's why it's so important that engagements are not about only-kiting as the "micro" then becomes a "one way"-thing. Kiting can be fine when it's only a small part about the interaction, and doesn't prevent "actual" engagements from occuring. The Ultralisk isn't some super-micro unit. It adds beefiness to the zerg army. This is the same from Brood War.
And it would benefit from being more alike to his BW ancestor: cheaper, faster (offcreep), reduced collision size, 4 supply instead of 6, and less oriented towards "terrible, terrible damage".
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On November 13 2014 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:46 Hider wrote:Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings. This is somewhat missing the point. I am not talking about whether it's difficult or not to use the Cyclone. When I am talking about interaction, it's a two-way thing. All fgreat micro-interactions in Sc1 and Sc2 comes from one player micro'ing his units and the enemy reacting to that micro. Having just one player capable of onemicro'ing and the enemy only being able to a-move and hope to eventually catch up is not fun. That's why it's so important that engagements are not about only-kiting as the "micro" then becomes a "one way"-thing. Kiting can be fine when it's only a small part about the interaction, and doesn't prevent "actual" engagements from occuring. The Ultralisk isn't some super-micro unit. It adds beefiness to the zerg army. This is the same from Brood War.
My point is not actually that the Ultralisk should be the most micro-intensive unit (though a higher movement speed would benefit it a bit here). Instead, the point is that when the Ultralisk comes into the field, it forces the terran to play a certain way which leaves less room for micro-interactions for all units. Not just the Ultralisk, but every other unit in the zerg composition as well. A zerg player with 5-6 Ultralisks cannot engage a terran player that just constantly kite his Ultralisks off-creep.
Micro-interactions either comes from harassment or actual engagements and if you prevent actual engagements from occuring, the net amount of micro in a game will decline.
reduced collision size,
Yes also that. There are so many variables to so many units Blizzard could tweak to make the game more enjoyable. That's kinda also why I am bit against the whole focus on the economy, because I believe time can spent so much better on improving micro-interactions, while at the same time rewarding aggression and small skirmishes.
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Is Blizzard really likely to change the damage point of any unit? I'm curious about Blizzard's process for determining this value. A brief look through the editor taught me that there are a lot of exceptions to the norm.
- Zealot, colossus, baneling, ghost, marauder, reaper, marine have lower values.
- Hellion, thor, ultralisk, swarm host (locust), hydralisk, infested terran have higher ones.
- All other units have the same value of 0.167.
I can't quite see the logic here. Why is it lower for zealots, normal for zerglings, but higher for ultralisks? Why are hydralisks specifically slower? Why do thors have an absurd 0.831 damage point for their ground attack, but not their air attack? Why favor bio so much?
Initially I thought Blizzard had forgotten about the damage point value by the time of Heart of the Swarm, and that all the exceptions date to early in development when they experimented more with the stats, but then I discovered that locusts specifically have a higher one. Just like infested terrans, but not like broodlings actually. It could be that Blizzard has made a conscious decision to not fiddle with the unit stats so much anymore and to try to standardize them for a consistent feel of the game and that they decided to only apply this to future units and leave the existing ones alone.
I suppose it has to do with graphical considerations, but Blizzard certainly isn't consistent with it. For instance, auto turrets have standard damage point despite having a marine-like attack. The hellion damage point could be seen as specifically for balance, but that's unproven.
My prediction for Legacy of the Void is that all the new units (herc, lurker, ravager, cyclone) will have the same damage point. I checked the lurker in the editor and it's true for that one.
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On November 13 2014 07:42 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:33 Hider wrote:On November 13 2014 07:28 DoubleReed wrote:
Uhm... the ultralisks have lings with them. The cyclones have to kite/kill the ultra before they are devoured by zerglings.
It's kind of weird to talk about a T3 unit all by itself. How do you micro vs Speedlings? Answer: You kite. How do you micro vs Ultralisks and Speedlings? Answer: You kite Balancewise, adding in Speedlings changes things around, but the interaction is the same. The point is that the more Ultralisks the zerg builds, the worse the interaction gets as its raw stats are too good while it's too slow off-creep which makes it too kiteable. That's at least my diagnosis, and Blizzard's solution only makes the disease even worse. Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings. You're acting like this is a 1v1 battle which very rarely happens with Ultralisks, because ultralisks are easily kited when they're alone. That's just as true with bio as it is with the cyclone. Ultralisks need support. There's no reason to talk about Ultralisks without support. It's like talking about Colossus without support. It's pointless and doesn't really give any information about how the units will work in a game.
We have and had those situations when units on their own were crap but when you supported them they became good and balanced. I cant remember the last time someone said it was so exciting that Protoss has to ball up everything because nothing works on its own.
And yes, thats exactly the point with the cyclone. The cyclone won't do shit against zerg. Zerg is going to open speedlings and Terran won't be building cyclones for a long time. They will only start building it once they have a deathball to protect it.
We have that situation in PvZ right now. Most of the battles are number's games because everything is just a hardcounter to something and getting hardcountered by something else (hear TLO's and Ret's views on it for example). It's not imbalanced and strategically quite a deep matchup. But all the combats are numbers games because the unit interactions aren't back and forth.
Infinite kiting unless speedlings or fungals are around is just that.
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United States4130 Posts
On November 13 2014 07:56 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:52 DoubleReed wrote:On November 13 2014 07:46 Hider wrote:Well, with the cyclone you have to lock-on and kite. You don't want to target the lings. This is somewhat missing the point. I am not talking about whether it's difficult or not to use the Cyclone. When I am talking about interaction, it's a two-way thing. All fgreat micro-interactions in Sc1 and Sc2 comes from one player micro'ing his units and the enemy reacting to that micro. Having just one player capable of onemicro'ing and the enemy only being able to a-move and hope to eventually catch up is not fun. That's why it's so important that engagements are not about only-kiting as the "micro" then becomes a "one way"-thing. Kiting can be fine when it's only a small part about the interaction, and doesn't prevent "actual" engagements from occuring. The Ultralisk isn't some super-micro unit. It adds beefiness to the zerg army. This is the same from Brood War. My point is not actually that the Ultralisk should be the most micro-intensive unit (though a higher movement speed would benefit it a bit here). Instead, the point is that when the Ultralisk comes into the field, it forces the terran to play a certain way which leaves less room for micro-interactions for all units. Not just the Ultralisk, but every other unit in the zerg composition as well. Micro-interactions either comes from harassment or actual engagements and if you prevent actual engagements from occuring, the net amount of micro in a game will decline.
Yes, the unit forces the terran to play differently. That's exactly what we want units to do. Impact the way we micro and play. Otherwise, you wouldn't get the unit in the first place.
Maybe you're just not explaining yourself well. What exactly are you aiming for here? It sounds to me like you want the Ultralisk to be less Ultra.
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EPT
