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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:09 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:56 REyeM wrote:
@Zealously
What is you argument for ranking PartinG higher than Dear? I think Parting has looked better for longer, and he has the added benefit of having played an important role in SKT's playoffs campaign. Their head-to-head where Parting eventually came out on top played a role, but overall I feel that Parting is still more solid. That said, I think Dear's peak ability is higher than Parting's and that he needs a month or two to overtake him. Right now, he's still a bit unstable. And what's your argument for not putting MKP on #1 Pretty blasphemous imo
Well first of all. He went 1-1 against Alive. Secondly his name is now MVP_MK. Show some respect.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 02 2014 04:09 Hider wrote:On September 02 2014 03:54 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:47 Hider wrote:On September 02 2014 03:43 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:40 BakedButters wrote:
Polt should be out and herO should be on the list. At least herO has proven himself able to beat top Koreans who reside in Korea Like Snute? Typically don't care about discussing power-ranks, because it can be super hard to determine who is 3rd vs 5th for instance, however, your just not making any consistent logical arguments in defending Polt. If your going to defend Heros ranking over Polt becasue Hero lost to Stephano 1-2 and 1-2, good luck defending Polt's vs Stephano, Scarlett, Bunny and Major. The argument is that he A) won Red Bull Detroit and looked very good doing so, especially in dismantling Taeja, B) has been playing well consistently for the better part of the summer (this includes MLG, the Red Bull events and most of what I've seen of him online). My argument is that he has played well - with the exception of a number of series among many - and that I would rate him among the top threats in your average tournament. Given the volume of matches Polt plays every month, it's absurd to expect him to maintain the same consistency other players do. Losses will occur for whatever reason if you're participating in 10+ online/offline tournaments every month. That shouldn't detract from the fact that Polt has looked good for the most part of August. + Show Spoiler +So if losses can occur when you play lots of games, then surprise-results can also occur? Like him beating Taeja 3-0 in the most volatile match-up? Given all his other TvT results (loss vs Bunny, Aco and Major), his result vs Taeja looked like anomaly, not his normal form. And Tajea is the only top-10 player he won against over the last 2 months. Further, while losses indeed can occur when you play lots of games, it's still very hard to statistically justify combined losses of 6-3 vs Scarlett, 0-5 vs Major and 4-2 vs Stephano for instance. 2-1 and 3-2 losses vs slightly supbar players can be justified, however such convincing losses cannot be explained through variance, rather you have to assume that he was just tired, but when your using this type of arguemnt specifically for Polt, then you get into lots of bias of where you can use the "tired" approach instead of just relying on a consistent approach. Further, it completely contradicts your previous argument about rewarding consistency. Moreover, if you put extra emphasiz on winning tournaments, why not put Bunny above Polt? He looked convincing in Ginfinity tournament (and also beat Polt in the heads-up a couple of days ago). But let's look at a larger sample size for Hero and Life then, to see whether these guys have any embarrasing losses at a similar sample size. Below, is shown Heros results and worst seems to be a 0-2 loss vs Gumiho. That's nowhere losing 3-6 to Scarlett or 0-5 vs Major in my opinion. + Show Spoiler +2014-08-29 herO KR P 1–2 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Revival HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 P KR StarDust HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 1–2 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 P CA desRow HotS offline
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Online hide
2014-08-18 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Cure HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 2–0 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 2–1 T KR Polt HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 0–2 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR viOLet HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Journey HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–1 Z KR Check HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–1 Z NZ Petraeus HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 P CA WhatAmI HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 Z US SLeet HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Cure HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Bbyong HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 P KR Panic HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Hack HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR TRUE HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 1–2 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 2–0 Z NZ Petraeus HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 2–0 Z US Grief HotS online
IEM Season IX Toronto Qualifiers hide
2014-08-12 herO KR P 0–2 T KR Flash HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–1 T KR TY HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Pigbaby HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–0 P KR Super HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–1 T KR TY HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro4 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Trust HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro8 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–0 T KR sKyHigh HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro16 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Sacsri HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro32 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–1 Z KR Symbol HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #1 hide
2014-07-24 herO KR P 0–2 T KR GuMiho HotS online
2014-07-24 herO KR P 2–0 T KR EJK HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 3 Korea Code A hide
2014-07-24 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Reality HotS offline
2014-07-24 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Super HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus hide
2014-07-22 herO KR P 0–1 P KR Rain HotS offline
2014-07-22 herO KR P 1–0 P KR PartinG HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus Series #2 hide
2014-07-21 herO KR P 0–1 P KR PartinG HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus Series #1 hide
2014-07-20 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR soO HotS offline
2014-07-20 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR soO HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-07-07 herO KR P 0–1 T KR Maru HotS offline
2014-06-29 herO KR P 0–1 Z KR Dark HotS offline
2014-06-23 herO KR P 0–1 Z KR ByuL HotS offline
2014-06-17 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR DongRaeGu HotS offline
2014-06-10 herO KR P 1–0 T KR Maru HotS offline
2014-06-10 herO KR P 1–0 T KR Cure HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-09 herO KR P 4–2 T KR Flash HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-08 herO KR P 1–0 P KR Hurricane HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-08 herO KR P 4–3 P KR Zest HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Life HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Flash HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-02 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR Action HotS offline
Below are seen Life's results. His worst results are probably two bo3 losses to Scarlett, Gumiho and Kane, though he beat the former a short while after. But Life's results overall can definitely be explained by statistical volatility. You don't see any extremey 4-0/5-0/6-3 losses to players outside the top 20 here. + Show Spoiler +2014-08-31 Life KR Z 1–3 P KR Zest HotS offline
2014-08-30 Life KR Z 3–0 P KR First HotS offline
2014-08-29 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR MC HotS offline
2014-08-29 Life KR Z 2–1 Z CA Scarlett HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Revival HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR StarDust HotS offline
KeSPA Cup 2014 hide
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Rain HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Bbyong HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Terminator HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Blast HotS online
IEM Season IX Toronto Qualifiers hide
2014-08-12 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR TY HotS online
2014-08-12 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR Super HotS online
Destiny I hide
2014-08-09 Life KR Z 0–3 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 1–2 Z CA Kane HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 2–1 Z US Guitarcheese HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR HerO HotS online
Dragon Invitational #4 hide
2014-08-05 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Center HotS online
Hong Kong e-Sports Tournament #2 Qualifiers South Korea hide
2014-07-28 Life KR Z 1–2 Z KR RagnaroK HotS online
2014-07-28 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Hack HotS online
BaseTradeTV The Big One hide
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 4–0 Z KR HyuN HotS online
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 3–1 P KR JYP HotS online
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR SuperNova HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 3 Korea Code A hide
2014-07-24 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Bunny HotS offline
2014-07-24 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Stats HotS offline
BaseTradeTV The Big One hide
2014-07-23 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Journey HotS online
2014-07-23 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Jaedong HotS online
IEM Season IX Shenzhen hide
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR TaeJa HotS offline
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR MMA HotS offline
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 1–2 P CN Jim HotS offline
2014-07-17 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Daisy HotS offline
2014-07-16 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR HerO HotS offline
2014-07-16 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Daisy HotS offline
Dragon Invitational #3 hide
2014-07-14 Life KR Z 3–2 Z KR Leenock HotS online
2014-07-14 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR First HotS online
2014-07-13 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR HyuN HotS online
IEM Season IX Shenzhen hide
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Dear HotS online
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Arthur HotS online
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 0–2 Z KR Solar HotS online
Dragon Invitational #3 hide
2014-07-08 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Impact HotS online
SEAcraft Weekly #9 hide
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Pet HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Hack HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–1 Z PH EnDerr HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–0 Z IN DemiLove HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 1–0 P AU Frustration HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 1–0 P NZ Enak HotS online
TeSL TWOP 2014 Qualifer hide
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Terminator HotS online
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Solar HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 1–0 T KR Flash HotS offline
MLG Pro Circuit 2014 Anaheim hide
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 1–2 Z CA Scarlett HotS offline
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 2–1 T MX MajOr HotS offline
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 2–0 T US Illusion HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Alicia HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Choya HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Apocalypse HotS offline
2014-06-20 Life KR Z 1–2 Z KR DongRaeGu HotS offline
2014-06-20 Life KR Z 2–1 T SE ThorZaIN HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-16 Life KR Z 0–1 Z KR Solar HotS offline
Dragon Invitational #2 hide
2014-06-12 Life KR Z 1–3 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-06-12 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Leenock HotS online
2014-06-11 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Symbol HotS online
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Center HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 0–1 Z KR Soulkey HotS offline
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 1–0 P KR Classic HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR herO HotS online
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 0–2 T KR Flash HotS online
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 2 Korea Code S hide
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR ParalyzE HotS offline
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Rain HotS offline
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR ParalyzE HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Clan Wars hide
2014-05-17 Life KR Z 1–0 P NL JayPower HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 2 Korea Code S hide
2014-05-09 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Classic HotS offline
2014-05-09 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Rogue HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament hide
2014-05-06 Life KR Z 0–1 T KR Flash HotS offline
2014-05-04 Life KR Z 0–1 T KR Bbyong HotS offline
Dreamhack 2014 Bucharest hide
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 3–0 Z KR Impact HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR StarDust HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Leenock HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P FR Lilbow HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Ryung HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P FR Lilbow HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P NL Harstem HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P RO MoonBeam HotS offline
You cannot use Polt's higher sample size to justify his very convcing losses to Major and Scarlett. And, you cannot go around cherry-picking which results you really want to matter and ignore other impressive results in similar contexts. Your just ending out maximizing bias here instead of using the most objective consistent approach possible. I'm almost sure at this point that Zealously is just trying to get his favorite players higher ranks than they deserve. Did you see that Life made 'Close but no Cigar'? What a joke that is. In the case of Polt, I think he just looked blindly at the win against Taeja as a "proof" of Polt being one of the best players while not really understanding how volatile TvT - in general - has been over the last couple of months and completely ignoring that Polt actually has had more "bad results" than "extraordinary strong" results.
Can confirm. I didn't watch a single game of any player on this ranking!
Seriously, I do believe I've already said that I put Polt on the ranking largely because I think he has looked good for the most part over a long stretch of time. I didn't take any one win and use it as the sole justification for Polt being at #8, nor do I think I lack understanding in the TvT match-up any more than you do. I watch an absurd amount of Starcraft, and it's kind of silly that you would think I would put Polt on the PR over Life if I didn't think Polt deserved it. Now, I may be wrong in thinking Polt is a great player, but you're not going to convince me otherwise. We'll see which one of us is proven right as we move closer to Blizzcon.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Too bad this wasn't a PR by matchup.
I'd have put MC at #1 PvT. Not even joking.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:34 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:09 Lorning wrote:On September 02 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:56 REyeM wrote:
@Zealously
What is you argument for ranking PartinG higher than Dear? I think Parting has looked better for longer, and he has the added benefit of having played an important role in SKT's playoffs campaign. Their head-to-head where Parting eventually came out on top played a role, but overall I feel that Parting is still more solid. That said, I think Dear's peak ability is higher than Parting's and that he needs a month or two to overtake him. Right now, he's still a bit unstable. And what's your argument for not putting MKP on #1 Pretty blasphemous imo Well first of all. He went 1-1 against Alive. Secondly his name is now MVP_MK. Show some respect.
I'll show him some respect after we 3 - 0 MVP (and wreck Choya's ass) in PL
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On September 02 2014 04:36 stuchiu wrote:
Too bad this wasn't a PR by matchup.
I'd have put MC at #1 PvT. Not even joking.
Make your own top 5 of all 6 matchups.
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United States33487 Posts
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Yey!
please put in in the normal order like usual. the best player should be namned last, so u can guess. To put him first kills the hype and fun.
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Also clearly the most objective ranking is:
HyuN, MC, TaeJa, StarDust, Polt, San, Zest, Bomber, Life, and Jaedong.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:36 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:34 stuchiu wrote:On September 02 2014 04:09 Lorning wrote:On September 02 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:56 REyeM wrote:
@Zealously
What is you argument for ranking PartinG higher than Dear? I think Parting has looked better for longer, and he has the added benefit of having played an important role in SKT's playoffs campaign. Their head-to-head where Parting eventually came out on top played a role, but overall I feel that Parting is still more solid. That said, I think Dear's peak ability is higher than Parting's and that he needs a month or two to overtake him. Right now, he's still a bit unstable. And what's your argument for not putting MKP on #1 Pretty blasphemous imo Well first of all. He went 1-1 against Alive. Secondly his name is now MVP_MK. Show some respect. I'll show him some respect after we 3 - 0 MVP (and wreck Choya's ass) in PL
Creator beats MKP in the first match, but MVP is able to force the ace match. Choya sends out MKP again, and Gerrard sends out Creator.
Creator rips off his mask, IT WAS BYUN ALL ALONG. Rain screams in rage and rushes the stage but is shot by Sniper, who has come to help Byun destroy evil.
Byun vs MKP is a long 2 hour game that ends in double base trades and just as Byun is about to win, the power shuts off. Kespa rewards Jaedong the win. Mass riots in Korea.
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On September 02 2014 04:24 REyeM wrote:
What is everyones opinion on who is #2 zerg in the world?
I'm gonna go with Liquid`Snute.
I'd say Solar is #2 with Life in very close pursuit.
Zerg is probably the least stable race to rank though. Even for soO, I think Zealously captured it perfectly. He's #1 I guess, but you just look at him and don't really get that feeling of greatness like you would from, say, Soulkey when he's playing his best. It isn't like back in WoL, where Zerg basically had 3 major eras (Nestea, DRG, and Life).
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On September 02 2014 04:45 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:36 Lorning wrote:On September 02 2014 04:34 stuchiu wrote:On September 02 2014 04:09 Lorning wrote:On September 02 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:56 REyeM wrote:
@Zealously
What is you argument for ranking PartinG higher than Dear? I think Parting has looked better for longer, and he has the added benefit of having played an important role in SKT's playoffs campaign. Their head-to-head where Parting eventually came out on top played a role, but overall I feel that Parting is still more solid. That said, I think Dear's peak ability is higher than Parting's and that he needs a month or two to overtake him. Right now, he's still a bit unstable. And what's your argument for not putting MKP on #1 Pretty blasphemous imo Well first of all. He went 1-1 against Alive. Secondly his name is now MVP_MK. Show some respect. I'll show him some respect after we 3 - 0 MVP (and wreck Choya's ass) in PL Creator beats MKP in the first match, but MVP is able to force the ace match. Choya sends out MKP again, and Gerrard sends out Creator. Creator rips off his mask, IT WAS BYUN ALL ALONG. Rain screams in rage and rushes the stage but is shot by Sniper, who has come to help Byun destroy evil. Byun vs MKP is a long 2 hour game that ends in double base trades and just as Byun is about to win, the power shuts off. Kespa rewards Jaedong the win. Mass riots in Korea.
That was the most intense post I've seen on this site in a long time.
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:53 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:24 REyeM wrote:
What is everyones opinion on who is #2 zerg in the world?
I'm gonna go with Liquid`Snute. I'd say Solar is #2 with Life in very close pursuit. Zerg is probably the least stable race to rank though. Even for soO, I think Zealously captured it perfectly. He's #1 I guess, but you just look at him and don't really get that feeling of greatness like you would from, say, Soulkey when he's playing his best. It isn't like back in WoL, where Zerg basically had 3 major eras (Nestea, DRG, and Life).
TRUE as #2 zerg for me at the moment.
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On September 02 2014 04:34 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:25 Hider wrote:On September 02 2014 04:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 02 2014 04:09 Hider wrote:On September 02 2014 03:54 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:47 Hider wrote:On September 02 2014 03:43 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:40 BakedButters wrote:
Polt should be out and herO should be on the list. At least herO has proven himself able to beat top Koreans who reside in Korea Like Snute? Typically don't care about discussing power-ranks, because it can be super hard to determine who is 3rd vs 5th for instance, however, your just not making any consistent logical arguments in defending Polt. If your going to defend Heros ranking over Polt becasue Hero lost to Stephano 1-2 and 1-2, good luck defending Polt's vs Stephano, Scarlett, Bunny and Major. The argument is that he A) won Red Bull Detroit and looked very good doing so, especially in dismantling Taeja, B) has been playing well consistently for the better part of the summer (this includes MLG, the Red Bull events and most of what I've seen of him online). My argument is that he has played well - with the exception of a number of series among many - and that I would rate him among the top threats in your average tournament. Given the volume of matches Polt plays every month, it's absurd to expect him to maintain the same consistency other players do. Losses will occur for whatever reason if you're participating in 10+ online/offline tournaments every month. That shouldn't detract from the fact that Polt has looked good for the most part of August. + Show Spoiler +So if losses can occur when you play lots of games, then surprise-results can also occur? Like him beating Taeja 3-0 in the most volatile match-up? Given all his other TvT results (loss vs Bunny, Aco and Major), his result vs Taeja looked like anomaly, not his normal form. And Tajea is the only top-10 player he won against over the last 2 months. Further, while losses indeed can occur when you play lots of games, it's still very hard to statistically justify combined losses of 6-3 vs Scarlett, 0-5 vs Major and 4-2 vs Stephano for instance. 2-1 and 3-2 losses vs slightly supbar players can be justified, however such convincing losses cannot be explained through variance, rather you have to assume that he was just tired, but when your using this type of arguemnt specifically for Polt, then you get into lots of bias of where you can use the "tired" approach instead of just relying on a consistent approach. Further, it completely contradicts your previous argument about rewarding consistency. Moreover, if you put extra emphasiz on winning tournaments, why not put Bunny above Polt? He looked convincing in Ginfinity tournament (and also beat Polt in the heads-up a couple of days ago). But let's look at a larger sample size for Hero and Life then, to see whether these guys have any embarrasing losses at a similar sample size. Below, is shown Heros results and worst seems to be a 0-2 loss vs Gumiho. That's nowhere losing 3-6 to Scarlett or 0-5 vs Major in my opinion. + Show Spoiler +2014-08-29 herO KR P 1–2 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Revival HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 P KR StarDust HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 1–2 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 herO KR P 2–0 P CA desRow HotS offline
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Online hide
2014-08-18 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Cure HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 2–0 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 2–1 T KR Polt HotS online
2014-08-18 herO KR P 0–2 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR viOLet HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Journey HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–1 Z KR Check HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–1 Z NZ Petraeus HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 P CA WhatAmI HotS online
2014-08-17 herO KR P 2–0 Z US SLeet HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Cure HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Bbyong HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 P KR Panic HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 T KR Hack HotS online
2014-08-15 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR TRUE HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 1–2 T KR YoDa HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 2–0 Z NZ Petraeus HotS online
2014-08-14 herO KR P 2–0 Z US Grief HotS online
IEM Season IX Toronto Qualifiers hide
2014-08-12 herO KR P 0–2 T KR Flash HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–1 T KR TY HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Pigbaby HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–0 P KR Super HotS online
2014-08-12 herO KR P 2–1 T KR TY HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro4 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Trust HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro8 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–0 T KR sKyHigh HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro16 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Sacsri HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #3 Ro32 hide
2014-07-31 herO KR P 2–1 Z KR Symbol HotS online
Red Bull Battlegrounds 2014 Global Qualifier #1 hide
2014-07-24 herO KR P 0–2 T KR GuMiho HotS online
2014-07-24 herO KR P 2–0 T KR EJK HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 3 Korea Code A hide
2014-07-24 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Reality HotS offline
2014-07-24 herO KR P 0–2 P KR Super HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus hide
2014-07-22 herO KR P 0–1 P KR Rain HotS offline
2014-07-22 herO KR P 1–0 P KR PartinG HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus Series #2 hide
2014-07-21 herO KR P 0–1 P KR PartinG HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Playoffs Ro4 SK Telecom T1 vs. CJ Entus Series #1 hide
2014-07-20 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR soO HotS offline
2014-07-20 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR soO HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-07-07 herO KR P 0–1 T KR Maru HotS offline
2014-06-29 herO KR P 0–1 Z KR Dark HotS offline
2014-06-23 herO KR P 0–1 Z KR ByuL HotS offline
2014-06-17 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR DongRaeGu HotS offline
2014-06-10 herO KR P 1–0 T KR Maru HotS offline
2014-06-10 herO KR P 1–0 T KR Cure HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-09 herO KR P 4–2 T KR Flash HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-08 herO KR P 1–0 P KR Hurricane HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-08 herO KR P 4–3 P KR Zest HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 2–0 Z KR Life HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-06-06 herO KR P 1–2 T KR Flash HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-02 herO KR P 1–0 Z KR Action HotS offline
Below are seen Life's results. His worst results are probably two bo3 losses to Scarlett, Gumiho and Kane, though he beat the former a short while after. But Life's results overall can definitely be explained by statistical volatility. You don't see any extremey 4-0/5-0/6-3 losses to players outside the top 20 here. + Show Spoiler +2014-08-31 Life KR Z 1–3 P KR Zest HotS offline
2014-08-30 Life KR Z 3–0 P KR First HotS offline
2014-08-29 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR MC HotS offline
2014-08-29 Life KR Z 2–1 Z CA Scarlett HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 Z NO Snute HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Revival HotS offline
2014-08-28 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR StarDust HotS offline
KeSPA Cup 2014 hide
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Rain HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Bbyong HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Terminator HotS online
2014-08-18 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Blast HotS online
IEM Season IX Toronto Qualifiers hide
2014-08-12 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR TY HotS online
2014-08-12 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR Super HotS online
Destiny I hide
2014-08-09 Life KR Z 0–3 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 1–2 Z CA Kane HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 2–1 Z US Guitarcheese HotS online
2014-08-06 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR HerO HotS online
Dragon Invitational #4 hide
2014-08-05 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Center HotS online
Hong Kong e-Sports Tournament #2 Qualifiers South Korea hide
2014-07-28 Life KR Z 1–2 Z KR RagnaroK HotS online
2014-07-28 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Hack HotS online
BaseTradeTV The Big One hide
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 4–0 Z KR HyuN HotS online
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 3–1 P KR JYP HotS online
2014-07-25 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR SuperNova HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 3 Korea Code A hide
2014-07-24 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Bunny HotS offline
2014-07-24 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Stats HotS offline
BaseTradeTV The Big One hide
2014-07-23 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Journey HotS online
2014-07-23 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Jaedong HotS online
IEM Season IX Shenzhen hide
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR TaeJa HotS offline
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR MMA HotS offline
2014-07-18 Life KR Z 1–2 P CN Jim HotS offline
2014-07-17 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Daisy HotS offline
2014-07-16 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR HerO HotS offline
2014-07-16 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Daisy HotS offline
Dragon Invitational #3 hide
2014-07-14 Life KR Z 3–2 Z KR Leenock HotS online
2014-07-14 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR First HotS online
2014-07-13 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR HyuN HotS online
IEM Season IX Shenzhen hide
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Dear HotS online
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Arthur HotS online
2014-07-10 Life KR Z 0–2 Z KR Solar HotS online
Dragon Invitational #3 hide
2014-07-08 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Impact HotS online
SEAcraft Weekly #9 hide
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Pet HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR Hack HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–1 Z PH EnDerr HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 2–0 Z IN DemiLove HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 1–0 P AU Frustration HotS online
2014-06-30 Life KR Z 1–0 P NZ Enak HotS online
TeSL TWOP 2014 Qualifer hide
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR Terminator HotS online
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Solar HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-29 Life KR Z 1–0 T KR Flash HotS offline
MLG Pro Circuit 2014 Anaheim hide
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 1–2 Z CA Scarlett HotS offline
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 2–1 T MX MajOr HotS offline
2014-06-22 Life KR Z 2–0 T US Illusion HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–0 P KR Alicia HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Choya HotS offline
2014-06-21 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Apocalypse HotS offline
2014-06-20 Life KR Z 1–2 Z KR DongRaeGu HotS offline
2014-06-20 Life KR Z 2–1 T SE ThorZaIN HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-16 Life KR Z 0–1 Z KR Solar HotS offline
Dragon Invitational #2 hide
2014-06-12 Life KR Z 1–3 T KR INnoVation HotS online
2014-06-12 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Leenock HotS online
2014-06-11 Life KR Z 2–0 Z KR Symbol HotS online
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 2–0 T KR Center HotS online
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament Round 4 hide
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 0–1 Z KR Soulkey HotS offline
2014-06-09 Life KR Z 1–0 P KR Classic HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Sandisk Invitational hide
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR herO HotS online
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 0–2 T KR Flash HotS online
2014-06-06 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 2 Korea Code S hide
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 1–2 P KR ParalyzE HotS offline
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Rain HotS offline
2014-06-04 Life KR Z 0–2 P KR ParalyzE HotS offline
SHOUTcraft Clan Wars hide
2014-05-17 Life KR Z 1–0 P NL JayPower HotS online
WCS 2014 Season 2 Korea Code S hide
2014-05-09 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR Classic HotS offline
2014-05-09 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Rogue HotS offline
Proleague 2014 Main Tournament hide
2014-05-06 Life KR Z 0–1 T KR Flash HotS offline
2014-05-04 Life KR Z 0–1 T KR Bbyong HotS offline
Dreamhack 2014 Bucharest hide
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 3–0 Z KR Impact HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 T KR INnoVation HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 P KR StarDust HotS offline
2014-04-27 Life KR Z 2–1 Z KR Leenock HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P FR Lilbow HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 1–2 T KR Ryung HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P FR Lilbow HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P NL Harstem HotS offline
2014-04-26 Life KR Z 2–0 P RO MoonBeam HotS offline
You cannot use Polt's higher sample size to justify his very convcing losses to Major and Scarlett. And, you cannot go around cherry-picking which results you really want to matter and ignore other impressive results in similar contexts. Your just ending out maximizing bias here instead of using the most objective consistent approach possible. I'm almost sure at this point that Zealously is just trying to get his favorite players higher ranks than they deserve. Did you see that Life made 'Close but no Cigar'? What a joke that is. In the case of Polt, I think he just looked blindly at the win against Taeja as a "proof" of Polt being one of the best players while not really understanding how volatile TvT - in general - has been over the last couple of months and completely ignoring that Polt actually has had more "bad results" than "extraordinary strong" results. Can confirm. I didn't watch a single game of any player on this ranking! Seriously, I do believe I've already said that I put Polt on the ranking largely because I think he has looked good for the most part over a long stretch of time. I didn't take any one win and use it as the sole justification for Polt being at #8, nor do I think I lack understanding in the TvT match-up any more than you do. I watch an absurd amount of Starcraft, and it's kind of silly that you would think I would put Polt on the PR over Life if I didn't think Polt deserved it. Now, I may be wrong in thinking Polt is a great player, but you're not going to convince me otherwise. We'll see which one of us is proven right as we move closer to Blizzcon.
I didn't say you didn't watch lots of Starcraft. Rather my point is that you haven't put out any consistent justification for Polt's ranking. I know personally how extremely easy it is to get bias'ed when you don't look objectively at all of the the data, but your view gets influenced by the players you watch the most.
In previous posts, I provded provided a large sample size of results from players whom your rated below Polt and concluded that Polts results overall are less impressive. If you disagree with my assesment of the data, please explain so, but so far. your only arguments in favor of Polt over Innovaiton, Life and Hero have been:
(1) Won a tournamnet in August
(2) Won 3-0 against Taeja
(3) Bad results can be explained due to him being playing more games
And my counter-argument to that has been that if you value tournamnet wins extremely high then you need to justify why Bunny isn't on the list since he also has won a tournament and overall looked better over the last 1-2 months.
If you wanna put extreme emphasize on this 3-0 win against Taeja, which is his only top 15 win in August, then you can't also explain his "embarrasing" losses due to "playing lots of games". Moreover, you need to explain why his win vs Taeja was more impressive than the badness of his other most recent TvT results. If he had this super positive track-record vs top 15 players over the last 2-3 months, it would be a different story, becasue then we could argue that this is his "standard"-level. But his only top 15 win is vs Taeja.
After having analyzed the data, it's my assesment that he has a solid track-record vs players outside top 30 (with the loss vs Stephano as exception), worse than 50/50 vs players I would rank top 10-30 (here I am including top foreigners as well) as he seems to only win against Hyun. And only won against one top 10 player (Taeja).
Innovation, Hero and Life all have much more impressive results when you apply the similar methodology. Given that, I would rank Polt around top 20-30, but even that is probably an overstatement since there could be multiple other lesser known Kespa players that are a bit better - or on level - with him.
From my perspective, your applying special rules to Polt. At least you still need to come up with a methdology of what makes Polt better than Hero, Life and Innovation, because after having analyzed the data - I can't see how past results - over the 1-6 months, or w/e ime-period you use - justifies Polt as being better. It's ofc possible that I am interpreting data wrongly, but you still haven't put up any counterarguments against that (and I assume that when you make a powerrank, it's becasue your willing to discuss and defend it - or at least admit if your wrong).
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Really good thread, i would personally put Flash before Maru, but thats just my opinion. And btw, is there a reason why you dont do the power ranking like the one for IEM. Its better when you start with the #10 and go down, rather than starting with the #1 and go up.
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On September 02 2014 04:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:53 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 02 2014 04:24 REyeM wrote:
What is everyones opinion on who is #2 zerg in the world?
I'm gonna go with Liquid`Snute. I'd say Solar is #2 with Life in very close pursuit. Zerg is probably the least stable race to rank though. Even for soO, I think Zealously captured it perfectly. He's #1 I guess, but you just look at him and don't really get that feeling of greatness like you would from, say, Soulkey when he's playing his best. It isn't like back in WoL, where Zerg basically had 3 major eras (Nestea, DRG, and Life). TRUE as #2 zerg for me at the moment.
Very TRUE.
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On September 02 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:Hey, I can fire you whenever Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 03:12 cLAN.Anax wrote:
So many big names there.... :-O Flash and Rain, I'm happy about. Will have to look more into Maru; never fully struck me as "legendary," but that could change. That's a surprise, I thought the community was very unified on Maru. Have you not watched a lot of his games, or have you just not been impressed?
I haven't been following the scene closely until very recently, to be fair.... Always enjoy seeing another prominent Terran, of course. 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 02 2014 05:13 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 02 2014 03:07 Trasko wrote:
Wrong! Everything is wrong! Hey, I can fire you whenever On September 02 2014 03:12 cLAN.Anax wrote:
So many big names there.... :-O Flash and Rain, I'm happy about. Will have to look more into Maru; never fully struck me as "legendary," but that could change. That's a surprise, I thought the community was very unified on Maru. Have you not watched a lot of his games, or have you just not been impressed? I haven't been following the scene closely until very recently, to be fair.... Always enjoy seeing another prominent Terran, of course.
I'd be happy to give you a list of 10 must-watch Maru games if you want to see how pure aggression is meant to be done!
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 02 2014 04:38 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 04:36 stuchiu wrote:
Too bad this wasn't a PR by matchup.
I'd have put MC at #1 PvT. Not even joking. Make your own top 5 of all 6 matchups.
PvT: MC, Zest, Parting, Rain, Stats
PvP: Rain, sOs, Zest, Parting, herO
PvZ: Zest, Rain, herO, San, Stardust
*Avenge is the coolest PvZ though
TvT: Maru, Cure, Flash. Then who the fuck knows. Bbyong best base trader though.
TvZ: Maru, Innovation, Cure, Flash, Heart/Bbyong/Taeja depending on the qualifications you base the judgement on.
TvP: Cure, Flash, Maru, Taeja, Polt/Bbyong
ZvZ: soO, DRG, TRUE, Life, Solar
ZvT: soO, Leenock, effort, Snute, Solar
ZvP: soO, TRUE, Snute, Solar, effort.
Maybe. Soulkey is like 6th in all three matchups for Zerg though. TvT is so unexplored a matchup that I could be entirely wrong there. TvZ 5th can change depending on what you value the most/people they've played/theoretical skill.
PvT is still new with the patch/recent developments in the meta so I don't have any strong convictions on any of them.
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I personally disagree with Polt and Innovation on the list. Not that they're not amazing players, but lately Innovation isn't quite what he used to be and Polt I don't think should quite make the top 10. I know if I had to assemble a team for the next proleague I'd feel a lot more comfortable with sOs and herO as well as possibly even Soulkey, Byul, Stats, and Bbyong.
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On September 02 2014 02:51 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 02:49 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Hurray! Power Ranks are back! Thx Zealously :D
Let the bitching begin:
- immediate "nope" upon seeing Rain as #1. It should be Flash imo.
- herO shouldn't even be in the Close But No Cigar section. Where's DRG? He's been looking good lately and he even won something.
- I'd swap soO and PartinG Good call on DRG. Now I can complain to Zealously!
Zealously just jealous because life did not make the list
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EPT
