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Funnily, I was warned for "bashing the community." Which is interesting because I only stated how I personally feel about about it. Notice there were no direct insults or attacks in my post, just some sarcasm about talking about a mod as if it were a real game.
I guess we are not allowed to express critical points of view regarding the glorious Starbow.
I think cencoring people who express criticism serves to speak more about the state of the matter than the actual criticism did. If Starbow is such a frail and brittle little thing that it cannot withstand the mild and meak manner of BASHING that I did, well then I truely apologize, for I did not know my post was akin to shooting fish in a barrel or stealing candy from a kid.
Well then, I'm glad we cleared the air regarding the protected nature of this mod, I only wish I will some day become so successful that I am immune to criticism, I bet that feels good.
Let's move on; So what happens when Starbow comes out of Beta? (And why is Beta spelled with a capital B?) Will it become Starbow Release Candidate? Starbow Game? Are you planning on buying the rights from blizzard to copyright your work, and release the Game as a standalone program? Get back to me please I'm intrigued.
User was warned for this post
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If everyone ignores him he will go away. I don't think his points need to be addressed tbh.
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On March 02 2014 22:51 lolmanpro wrote:
Funnily, I was warned for "bashing the community." Which is interesting because I only stated how I personally feel about about it. Notice there were no direct insults or attacks in my post, just some sarcasm about talking about a mod as if it were a real game.
I guess we are not allowed to express critical points of view regarding the glorious Starbow.
I think cencoring people who express criticism serves to speak more about the state of the matter than the actual criticism did. If Starbow is such a frail and brittle little thing that it cannot withstand the mild and meak manner of BASHING that I did, well then I truely apologize, for I did not know my post was akin to shooting fish in a barrel or stealing candy from a kid.
Well then, I'm glad we cleared the air regarding the protected nature of this mod, I only wish I will some day become so successful that I am immune to criticism, I bet that feels good.
Let's move on; So what happens when Starbow comes out of Beta? (And why is Beta spelled with a capital B?) Will it become Starbow Release Candidate? Starbow Game? Are you planning on buying the rights from blizzard to copyright your work, and release the Game as a standalone program? Get back to me please I'm intrigued.
Very good troll or simply retarded, probably too much sarcasm for a retard.
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On March 02 2014 22:51 lolmanpro wrote:
Funnily, I was warned for "bashing the community." Which is interesting because I only stated how I personally feel about about it. Notice there were no direct insults or attacks in my post, just some sarcasm about talking about a mod as if it were a real game.
I guess we are not allowed to express critical points of view regarding the glorious Starbow.
I think cencoring people who express criticism serves to speak more about the state of the matter than the actual criticism did. If Starbow is such a frail and brittle little thing that it cannot withstand the mild and meak manner of BASHING that I did, well then I truely apologize, for I did not know my post was akin to shooting fish in a barrel or stealing candy from a kid.
Well then, I'm glad we cleared the air regarding the protected nature of this mod, I only wish I will some day become so successful that I am immune to criticism, I bet that feels good.
Let's move on; So what happens when Starbow comes out of Beta? (And why is Beta spelled with a capital B?) Will it become Starbow Release Candidate? Starbow Game? Are you planning on buying the rights from blizzard to copyright your work, and release the Game as a standalone program? Get back to me please I'm intrigued.
The amount of stupidity in humans... just makes me sad 
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On March 02 2014 23:39 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 22:51 lolmanpro wrote:
Funnily, I was warned for "bashing the community." Which is interesting because I only stated how I personally feel about about it. Notice there were no direct insults or attacks in my post, just some sarcasm about talking about a mod as if it were a real game.
I guess we are not allowed to express critical points of view regarding the glorious Starbow.
I think cencoring people who express criticism serves to speak more about the state of the matter than the actual criticism did. If Starbow is such a frail and brittle little thing that it cannot withstand the mild and meak manner of BASHING that I did, well then I truely apologize, for I did not know my post was akin to shooting fish in a barrel or stealing candy from a kid.
Well then, I'm glad we cleared the air regarding the protected nature of this mod, I only wish I will some day become so successful that I am immune to criticism, I bet that feels good.
Let's move on; So what happens when Starbow comes out of Beta? (And why is Beta spelled with a capital B?) Will it become Starbow Release Candidate? Starbow Game? Are you planning on buying the rights from blizzard to copyright your work, and release the Game as a standalone program? Get back to me please I'm intrigued. Very good troll or simply retarded, probably too much sarcasm for a retard.
I think a healthy helping of both perhaps
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everyone who directly cites him to only insult then isn't that smart either, just saying...
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He's probably just drunk. Finnish people really like to complain when they're drunk. I'm mildly amused picturing him struggling to write that long, grammatically correct post.
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I don't watch or play SC2 anymore but I will play this!
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On March 03 2014 01:00 clik wrote:
I don't watch or play SC2 anymore but I will play this!
Welcome aboard 
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I was thinking that there was some confusion about the starbow economy system. I see this constantly on reddit: "Starbow rewards expanding while Starcraft 2 does not." It is not true, obviously, and is a mischaracterization of the changes that were made. It creates this reductionist view where only one aspect of the changes is emphasized as if that's the total sum of the effects, and it leads to backlash when the two games are contrasted and the differences don't seem that severe.
I think it's more accurate to say that SC2's economy is not broken, and that Starbow does not fix it, but rather that it starts anew from the Brood War economy which flows (to us) more naturally in non-obvious ways. The main differences still spring from being able to have more mineral income with fewer workers when you have more bases, but there is more and I don't know if there's a good one-sentence explanation for the way Starbow deviates, so to me it seems better to just say that it's hard to explain and that you have to read the full explanation if you're interested and that otherwise you shouldn't care about it too much.
(i.e. don't overreach in trying to prove Starbow superiority)
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On March 03 2014 02:26 Grumbels wrote:
I was thinking that there was some confusion about the starbow economy system. I see this constantly on reddit: "Starbow rewards expanding while Starcraft 2 does not." It is not true, obviously, and is a mischaracterization of the changes that were made. It creates this reductionist view where only one aspect of the changes is emphasized as if that's the total sum of the effects, and it leads to backlash when the two games are contrasted and the differences don't seem that severe.
I think it's more accurate to say that SC2's economy is not broken, and that Starbow does not fix it, but rather that it starts anew from the Brood War economy which flows (to us) more naturally in non-obvious ways. The main differences still spring from being able to have more mineral income with fewer workers when you have more bases, but there is more and I don't know if there's a good one-sentence explanation for the way Starbow deviates, so to me it seems better to just say that it's hard to explain and that you have to read the full explanation if you're interested and that otherwise you shouldn't care about it too much.
(i.e. don't overreach in trying to prove Starbow superiority)
Sc2 eco= every worker gives 100% income. That means that the first one has as much value as the second worker. That leads to having 60 workers on 3 bases is as affective as having 60 workers across 6 bases. In starbow having 60 workers across 3 bases means that you are actually oversaturated. because the second worker doesnt give you as much income as the first worker. So 60 workers across 6 bases leads to a superior economy. So in a way starbow rewards expanding much more.
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Damn, had hoped that TL would put up a news thread that + Show Spoiler + won the Invitational yesterday :X
Theres still people that dont know about teh Starbow Ladder ... :O There were so many people in the Twitch Chat yesterday that seemed so happy with Starbow :o
Maybe its just me... Starbow isnt as big as I think/hope sometimes. Maybe in a year :O
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On March 03 2014 03:03 Daumen wrote:Damn, had hoped that TL would put up a news thread that + Show Spoiler + won the Invitational yesterday :X Theres still people that dont know about teh Starbow Ladder ... :O There were so many people in the Twitch Chat yesterday that seemed so happy with Starbow :o Maybe its just me... Starbow isnt as big as I think/hope sometimes. Maybe in a year :O
Give it some time. The ladder is still in work and bugs need to be cleaned out.
Wait for future exposure, then we'll see if and how big Starbow can get.
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i think its already pretty huge. you can get a game almost instantly after queuing now, on the contrary to the 2-3 minutes waiting time before the tournament.
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Its one thing if the game becomes big for a few days/weeks, just like when the hype arised.
Its another to have a consistent and big playerbase which i believe will only come when the gameplay gets better.
So its still a bright future, as long as the gameplay gets better and more refined.
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On March 03 2014 03:03 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 02:26 Grumbels wrote:
I was thinking that there was some confusion about the starbow economy system. I see this constantly on reddit: "Starbow rewards expanding while Starcraft 2 does not." It is not true, obviously, and is a mischaracterization of the changes that were made. It creates this reductionist view where only one aspect of the changes is emphasized as if that's the total sum of the effects, and it leads to backlash when the two games are contrasted and the differences don't seem that severe.
I think it's more accurate to say that SC2's economy is not broken, and that Starbow does not fix it, but rather that it starts anew from the Brood War economy which flows (to us) more naturally in non-obvious ways. The main differences still spring from being able to have more mineral income with fewer workers when you have more bases, but there is more and I don't know if there's a good one-sentence explanation for the way Starbow deviates, so to me it seems better to just say that it's hard to explain and that you have to read the full explanation if you're interested and that otherwise you shouldn't care about it too much.
(i.e. don't overreach in trying to prove Starbow superiority) Sc2 eco= every worker gives 100% income. That means that the first one has as much value as the second worker. That leads to having 60 workers on 3 bases is as affective as having 60 workers across 6 bases. In starbow having 60 workers across 3 bases means that you are actually oversaturated. because the second worker doesnt give you as much income as the first worker. So 60 workers across 6 bases leads to a superior economy. So in a way starbow rewards expanding much more.
I agree there's a difference, but in Starcraft 2 you also want to expand for the additional gas income, because your bases run out, and because you are oversaturated on your existing bases. I think the most significant issue is that you simply can't support as many workers because of the supply limit, meanwhile in Starbow you can still make use of more bases even if you can't build more workers.
Saying that income is dependent on workers and not on bases might be true, but since you're going to build more workers in SC2 anyway, the practical difference isn't as huge (outside of the supply cap aspect).
Also, there are some other differences that aren't usually talked about. The fact that to my knowledge maps start with nine mineral patches in the main and less patches at the other patches, for one. (I like this though) Someone might easily say that this promotes one-base all-ins and that SC2 is superior in this regard. I won't agree with them, but it's an easy point to make on shallow inspection of the mechanics.
Another aspect that I like is that your first few workers are stronger than your later workers (income wise), making harass not quite so punishing. In SC2 sometimes there's a huge difference between killing three or five workers early on, but in Starbow it would not be as significant. But again, someone might say that this discourages multitasking and harassment. In practice that's not true, but it goes to show the limits of theorizing.
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Keep in mind that mindlessly rewarding expanding is not good design. That's one of the reasons why I don't like the (proposed) concept for SC2 to make gas more significant so that your economic strength is mainly related to your gas income, which promotes expanding while not being punishing for having too much worker supply, because gas mining only takes six workers per base obviously. In that case you would have linear scaling for bases vs income, with worker numbers being unimportant. In that case it will be very difficult to come back if you're ever at a base deficit.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Now that Kabel has access to all the replays on the server, he should be able fine tune the balance much more accurately in future.
It might be an interesting project for someone with a statistical background to analyse all the maps and strategies from the replays.
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On March 03 2014 03:25 iHirO wrote:
Now that Kabel has access to all the replays on the server, he should be able fine tune the balance much more accurately in future.
It might be an interesting project for someone with a statistical background to analyse all the maps and strategies from the replays.
It's nearly pointless to talk about balance now. There is balance dependent on the specific meta, tournament format, player skill etc. If one of these factors changes the previous balance judgment is no longer relevant. The only thing you can do is to look at the actual games and wonder if maybe the game feels harder to play for one race outside of things like the meta and the skill level.
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On March 03 2014 03:31 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 03:25 iHirO wrote:
Now that Kabel has access to all the replays on the server, he should be able fine tune the balance much more accurately in future.
It might be an interesting project for someone with a statistical background to analyse all the maps and strategies from the replays. It's nearly pointless to talk about balance now. There is balance dependent on the specific meta, tournament format, player skill etc. If one of these factors changes the previous balance judgment is no longer relevant. The only thing you can do is to look at the actual games and wonder if maybe the game feels harder to play for one race outside of things like the meta and the skill level.
Ofcourse its not pointless to talk about balance.
Plenty of stuff you can analyse even without a meta
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On March 03 2014 03:35 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 03:31 Grumbels wrote:On March 03 2014 03:25 iHirO wrote:
Now that Kabel has access to all the replays on the server, he should be able fine tune the balance much more accurately in future.
It might be an interesting project for someone with a statistical background to analyse all the maps and strategies from the replays. It's nearly pointless to talk about balance now. There is balance dependent on the specific meta, tournament format, player skill etc. If one of these factors changes the previous balance judgment is no longer relevant. The only thing you can do is to look at the actual games and wonder if maybe the game feels harder to play for one race outside of things like the meta and the skill level. Ofcourse its not pointless to talk about balance. Plenty of stuff you can analyse even without a meta
Yeah, but in terms of win rates and such. You can't do statistical analysis on the recent invitational and come up with something useful. Everything is too much in flux and the sample size is too small anyway.
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EPT
