As more news about Korean teams disbanding comes forward, it’s clear GSTL will not continue into the new year. Since competing in GSTL was the sole purpose of Axiom’s partnership with Acer, the AxiomAcer partnership will end. The end of the alliance was agreed upon by both parties and we end our partnership amicably. We want to extend our warmest thanks to Team Acer for allowing their players to join us in the GSTL and their support throughout 2013.
During the partnership, Axiom-Acer overcame many expectations to finish 3rd place in the 2013 Season 1 GSTL, and winning 1st place in the 2013 Season 2 GSTL.
From Crank's blog:
Acer is still our closest friend and we still love each other.
Well, it kinda makes sense. As mentioned, it was a good partnership but no GSTL, no need for it anymore. At least, Ryung won't be picking on Innovation when the partnership is dissolved so there's that lol
A nice and productive partnership comes to its natural end. Too bad for GSTL. I just hope GSL will cover enough Coda A matches to give me my fix of Wolfdor.
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said something about a year I believe. Her interview with... I want to say Slasher, had her saying she didn't stick with one game for too long. She didn't give any definitive response, and said she'd probably still be playing just not as hardcore as she is.
I also don't think this necessarily changes the living arrangements. Considering they're all good friends they might just continue doing what they're doing and just split the rent however many ways. But there's also the WCS changes going on, with other players planning on playing in other regions, who knows how many would move and the living situations could change drastically in general.
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
Didn't she say the she goes part-time next year or smth?
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said she don't want to be full time in 2014.
She's quite a drama queen so I don't take her words for written into rock. She has been very successful so obviously she will continue :D
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said she don't want to be full time in 2014.
She said she might not play full-time in 2014, didn't she? Even if that's how it turns out, there's a significant difference between that and retiring, and she kind of tends to be somewhat of a drama queen, I wouldn't take her word for it just like that given her success this year.
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said she don't want to be full time in 2014.
She said in an interview she wants to keep playing and competing quite a bit, but will likely cut down on watching the game and other related stuff, just practice and competition. That means you have time for school and other stuff too.
Besides, if she keeps doing well and is the process of getting an education, there is not really anything else she could do to make comparable money. She had 12k viewers when streaming for 10 hours. I really do hope she can get a solid practice environment for 2014, though with the clusterfuck that is the Korean scene it is not exactly a safe bet to go over there.
And even if it's part time, who cares. Maybe that will actually help because you don't need to live and breathe SC every day. Polt is doing just fine. So was Nerchio for a long time. If anything he did better back then. I think everyone should be part time, playing a game as demanding and stressful as Sc2 full time for years is not something I'd recommend to anyone.
On topic: we knew about this for a while, TB dropped the news when GSTL went belly up. Sad not to see AxA in PL, but scheduling would be a nightmare, and so would housing and other shit.
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said she don't want to be full time in 2014.
She's quite a drama queen so I don't take her words for written into rock. She has been very successful so obviously she will continue :D
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
Yeah you probably did, I don't think she's retiring
She said she don't want to be full time in 2014.
She's quite a drama queen so I don't take her words for written into rock. She has been very successful so obviously she will continue :D
I wouldn't be surprised if she really did let off on playing so much. Some people don't realize how frustrating/annoying it can be to play the same game for years 8+ hours a day. I really hope she doesn't quit, especially due to her recent tournament results she might not, but you never know. If you don't enjoy playing it can be hard to play it a lot.
What a lovely partnership AA was; too bad it had to end!
Sounds like everyone involved enjoyed their time together and the success the partnership brought. Hopefully we'll see them teaming back up in the future!
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I thought she was retiring in the near future? Did I miss something?
She was never retiring, just thinking about part-time.
This was right before her Bomber/Naniwa matches,.... I wonder if her renewed notoriety will change that.
On January 04 2014 04:27 tshi wrote: shame, it's two of the best foreign teams : (
Calling them foreign teams would be a stretch, especially for Axiom.
Well by having scarlett they're kinda top foreign team by default anyway. It's like how alliance is a top foreign team by default due to naniwa It's a shame that the dream of AxA in proleague won't ever happen because that would have been amazing.
Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
Saying Axiom is a Korean team because players live and practice in Korea is like saying that Barcelona is an Argentinian team because they have Argentinian players and live and practice in Argentina. Blah blah, anyone can make silly analogies for anything. What difference does it make anyway if some ppl consider them a foreign team and some a korean team? They really are a lot more similar to a foreign team than a korean team in many ways, but at the end of the day, it's just a starcraft team lol
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
Saying Axiom is a Korean team because players live and practice in Korea is like saying that Barcelona is an Argentinian team because they have Argentinian players and live and practice in Argentina. Blah blah, anyone can make silly analogies for anything. What difference does it make anyway if some ppl consider them a foreign team and some a korean team? They really are a lot more similar to a foreign team than a korean team in many ways, but at the end of the day, it's just a starcraft team lol
Sure anyone can make silly analogies. Mine was not one of those.
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
Saying Axiom is a Korean team because players live and practice in Korea is like saying that Barcelona is an Argentinian team because they have Argentinian players and live and practice in Argentina. Blah blah, anyone can make silly analogies for anything. What difference does it make anyway if some ppl consider them a foreign team and some a korean team? They really are a lot more similar to a foreign team than a korean team in many ways, but at the end of the day, it's just a starcraft team lol
Sure anyone can make silly analogies. Mine was not one of those.
If the GSTL were to come back somehow (which I doubt) I hope the partnership gets revived. I wonder what's going to happen with rent/accommodation of Acer players. Oh how I wish there could be a unified team league. Not seeing teams like AxA or Startale compete in a team league is going to be quite a void. I hope ATC and the SC2L are continued next year and that they do well.
On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote: Joy to the World.
?
I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons.
Go on, what have you got against it? Personally I think such mutually beneficial agreements are great for the game. It would be interesting to see your reasons for the contrary.
On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote: It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT KT Samsung CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Azubu FXO
oh god it would be beautiful
too much dead wood imo :p more like:
SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU
someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^
I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V
Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds.
And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
On January 04 2014 03:56 GumBa wrote: Was great while it lasted :D Hope Acer partners with a kespa team and Inno and MMA can play in PL
AcerSKT
If that happened you might as well end Proleague and award SKT the title now
Technically the Telecom roster should be good enough to win it now. Anything less would be an underachievement. They should at least be able to make it to Grand Finals with the boys playing the way they are.
On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote: It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT KT Samsung CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Azubu FXO
oh god it would be beautiful
too much dead wood imo :p more like:
SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU
someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^
I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V
Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds.
And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
Small sample but I think you get the idea.
Idk which thread this comes from (hence I haven't read the context) but I mostly agree with this. For ex., while I do love to see HerO at PL I also feel bad for the IM players that won't get their spot because of him. I also don't see IM-TL quite as a partnership, it's more like a "lend me a player please". Same would be if a Kespa team partners with EG to have Jaedong, or with Mouz to have Dear. Also I think the team loses some identity in this way. Think of your favourite <insert any sport here> team... if they borrow a top tier player and win a championship, it doesn't feel the same as winning it by their own, neither for the fans nor for the players.
On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote: It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT KT Samsung CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Azubu FXO
oh god it would be beautiful
too much dead wood imo :p more like:
SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU
someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^
I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V
Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds.
And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
Small sample but I think you get the idea.
Fair points. I also wish there was more emphasis on teamleagues in the scene, but there's a vicious cycle that we have. With so little emphasis and attention on team leagues, teams often find it financially unfeasible to have massive rosters, instead opting to have leaner rosters. This also makes it harder for teams to participate in team leagues due to their small rosters, which hurts the team leagues if teams cannot participate. Thus, with less teams, the teamleagues do not get as much attention and the cycle continues.
We saw how GSTL fell apart due to lack of teams, and even PL has not had an easy time getting the teams for each season. In the foreign scene, the ATC has implemented the joker and revive rule to help leaner teams survive. The teamleagues need teams to participate badly, which is why partnerships are allowed so that more teams can join. Partnerships may be a necessary evil in that regard.
I understand what you mean. Branding must also be taken into consideration when doing a potential partnership. I personally thought the Axiom-Acer partnership made sense as the Axiom and Acer cultures seemed to mesh well together, and many members of the team had been ex-Slayers teammates. On the the other hand, I hated the EG-TL partnership, because it really ruined the greatest rivalry in foreign Starcraft 2, and all we got in exchange was getting to see EG-TL get embarrassed in PL.
Pro League has started already. So seeing AxiomAcer in Pro League is not going to happen this year. Also it is very expensive for teams to play in Pro League and require players to live in Korea almost full time. So no WCS NA/EU players can play in Pro League. It is a damn shame about GSTL though, a very good alternative to Pro League. Just another nail in the coffin for SC2 in Korea
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team.
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team.
not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
along this train of thought, alliance is generally considered a swedish team, despite EG management and having non-swedish players too, because most people's first thoughts are "naniwa" or their dota 2 team.
Well in that case their most visible and prolific players are Swedish so it makes sense. I only really care about the players when I make distinctions about a team, if a team with foreigner management recruits 3-4 top Koreans to steamroll the competition, I do not consider that a foreign team.
And I will insist on calling Acer Canadian from here on out. Nerchio will now be required to get a maple leaf tattoo covering his back. Innovation can get one on his nose, that way the tattoos will be of roughly equivalent size.
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote: Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team.
not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
along this train of thought, alliance is generally considered a swedish team, despite EG management and having non-swedish players too, because most people's first thoughts are "naniwa" or their dota 2 team.
Yeah exactly. ANd when I think TotalBiscuit, I think of foreigner (not just cuz he's from Britan lol! He lives in America right? America is foreign, I guess.
On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote: It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT KT Samsung CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Azubu FXO
oh god it would be beautiful
too much dead wood imo :p more like:
SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU
someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^
I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V
Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds.
And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
Small sample but I think you get the idea.
yep i agree, either axiom and acer join proleague or they dont. They dont need to join together like they are one team. Its not fair to the other teams.
On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote: Joy to the World.
?
I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons.
That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious.
Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes:
On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:
On August 27 2013 00:57 TheSayo182 wrote: why not AX-Acer to proleague?
I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own.
On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:
On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:
On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:
On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote: It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT KT Samsung CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Azubu FXO
oh god it would be beautiful
too much dead wood imo :p more like:
SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU
someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^
I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V
Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds.
And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
Small sample but I think you get the idea.
yep i agree, either axiom and acer join proleague or they dont. They dont need to join together like they are one team. Its not fair to the other teams.
This whole "not fair to other teams" thing is laughable. You think it's as easy as just getting a bunch of good players together in one place and then just steamrolling Proleague? Look how well that worked out for EGTL... Axiom-Acer was a legitimate team coached under the same roof with a singular purpose. We did not have the absolute best individual players, it was not a supergroup filled with GSL and WCS champions. No, those were the other teams, the ones we beat over and over again because we were the most cohesive and well-rounded team in that league. Axiom-Acer was not a marriage of convenience and it's infuriating to see people discredit the hard work our players put in over some ridiculous technicality. What on earth is with this whole fairness thing anyway? So if I just bought MMA and Innovation then it would have been fair? Is it fair that a bunch of the eSFs best players got poached by KeSPA teams? Is it fair to the foreign teams when someone like Mousesports picks up Dear? Who gets to judge what is "fair"?
Winning team leagues is a hell of a lot more than just having good players, it's about having a good team and frankly outside of Proleague? There wasn't anyone on Axiom-Acers level and I doubt there ever will be again. Hell outside of Acer themselves as we saw during ATC, there wasn't even anyone on Axioms level.
On January 04 2014 09:49 -RusH wrote: Acer > Axiom.
This is a pretty great troll post right here. Just throw that shit out there and let people take sides, the argument will start on its own. You don't even need to do any work or prove your point, other posters will do that for you. I give it a 7/10 trolls.
On January 04 2014 10:06 aeligos wrote: WCS killing teams...again.
What does WCS have to do with it? Aside from the obvious that we don't really wanna do Proleague because it would interfere with playing in WCS, WCS is not the reason GSTL went tits up.
Blaming WCS for the Korean scene imploding is just incorrect. And neither is it because of LoL, if anything LoL is subsidizing starcraft in Korea right now.
On January 04 2014 08:22 opterown wrote: not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
I definitely think Scarlett and that shit talker guy, but that's because i focus on players, like one should, and when it comes to foreign teams recruiting Koreans it always feels like they're token Koreans to gain legitimacy/results. That sounds harsh i don't intend it to be so, but it's a common if not standard thing. Every team has them. Liquid Hero/Taeja, EG with all theirs, Acer's Bogus/MMA, Mouz.Dear, SK.MC, the list probably goes on but i'm not playing that game i quit it's too hard. Point is these are foreign teams bolstering their stocks with strong Koreans.
Axiom by contrast was always created as a Korean team. Look at the roster, there was no bolstering. Watch the original interviews and listen to the words and intent of the owners from day one. It's clear as the day what this team was created as. But if you want to be super crude, like most seem to want to when saying 'Axiom = TB = Foreign', then it's just as easily 'SlayerS + new owner'. If replacing Boxer with The Bains is enough to convert a team's entire being from Korean to Foreign - if all it takes for people to ignore context is to have a really loud and visible mouthpiece, then that's, i dunno. That's just such a simplistic way of viewing things, i can't even slow down my brain to comprehend that. It's a label, it's form over substance.
It's understandable though that people don't pay any attention to Axiom and instead focus on TB. Shit, i don't pay any attention to other teams, so i'm not gonna act like i know anything about them. TB is pretty loud and difficult to ignore, i imagine. But we should be talking about a team here, not one man. I thought we, wise esports consumers who don't overreact to things at all, were meant to be smarter than that.
That does fit in well with and i agree with StarStruck's dislike of partnerships. Sure i enjoyed the AxA thing, lots of players i really like ya ya ya champions woo :3 :3 :3 A fun thing but i want some stability in this scene and i want more team leagues. Even AxA and TLEG were DEFINTIELY NOT marriages of convenience and as was to be expected their time was limited. How can you invest energy into the scene when things change so much? It's really lame and i'd probably find it lamer if i watched BW and got to enjoy proleague in all its glorious glory. I'm almost glad i don't have that as a point of comparison!
I don't see it being addressed easily either since the global nature prevents it. TB's own (paraphrased) words - PL prevents WCS participation. StarStruck's excellent posts sum the whole thing up well. Players cannot be locked down into one region long term. Travel is too harsh, and they miss out on foreign tournament cash ins. I want there to be another strong team league to encourage roster stability and consistency and thus increase my ability to invest in teams and rivalries but i can't see how it could happen. Regular GSTL carnival style events? The PL format is so much more epic though. I'm at a loss, it's a real shame.
edit: sick clarification edit sorry plz dont hurt me
On January 04 2014 11:03 aike wrote: Now it's time for Prime-Axiom
Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves.
On January 04 2014 11:03 aike wrote: Now it's time for Prime-Axiom
Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves.
On January 04 2014 11:03 aike wrote: Now it's time for Prime-Axiom
Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves.
So what you're saying is you're buying Prime?
THEY NEED YOUR HELP, JOHN!
1. Buy Prime 2. Add Axiom's players into the Prime roster 3. Release all of Prime's players 4. Axiom has effectively replaced Prime in Proleague 5. Profit?
On January 04 2014 12:02 Squat wrote: I think everything except the profit part looks doable.
This guy gets it
There's nothing wrong with a 'bit' of philanthropy
I can see it now....
*background music*
Every day tens of Korean progamers go without playing in Proleague. For as little as $200 a day you can make a big difference. When you become a sponsor you will receive weekly VODs, allowing you to keep up on the progress of your Progamer. Don't wait any longer, these players need your help.
On January 04 2014 08:22 opterown wrote: not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
I definitely think Scarlett and that shit talker guy, but that's because i focus on players, like one should, and when it comes to foreign teams recruiting Koreans it always feels like they're token Koreans to gain legitimacy/results. That sounds harsh i don't intend it to be so, but it's a common if not standard thing. Every team has them. Liquid Hero/Taeja, EG with all theirs, Acer's Bogus/MMA, Mouz.Dear, SK.MC, the list probably goes on but i'm not playing that game i quit it's too hard. Point is these are foreign teams bolstering their stocks with strong Koreans.
Axiom by contrast was always created as a Korean team. Look at the roster, there was no bolstering. Watch the original interviews and listen to the words and intent of the owners from day one. It's clear as the day what this team was created as. But if you want to be super crude, like most seem to want to when saying 'Axiom = TB = Foreign', then it's just as easily 'SlayerS + new owner'. If replacing Boxer with The Bains is enough to convert a team's entire being from Korean to Foreign - if all it takes for people to ignore context is to have a really loud and visible mouthpiece, then that's, i dunno. That's just such a simplistic way of viewing things, i can't even slow down my brain to comprehend that. It's a label, it's form over substance.
It's understandable though that people don't pay any attention to Axiom and instead focus on TB. Shit, i don't pay any attention to other teams, so i'm not gonna act like i know anything about them. TB is pretty loud and difficult to ignore, i imagine. But we should be talking about a team here, not one man. I thought we, wise esports consumers who don't overreact to things at all, were meant to be smarter than that.
edit: sick clarification edit sorry plz dont hurt me
you've been incredibly snarky about this topic in both the threads, and i get that you're an axiom fan but arguing by throwing in snide comments about "super crude" "slow my brain down" "we are meant to be smarter" or "like one should" doesn't help you come off as reasonable.
yes TB and many people consider his team a korean team. however, many more consider it a foreigner team, and i was explaining why.
On January 04 2014 14:48 ETisME wrote: can't we just call axiom foreign owned korean team
That would be to simple and easy. I think we should argue about it for at least 10 more pages and complain about TB supporting the players we enjoy and being cynical, snarky Brit.
As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
On January 04 2014 03:56 GumBa wrote: Was great while it lasted :D Hope Acer partners with a kespa team and Inno and MMA can play in PL
AcerSKT
I'm not sure how boxer would feel about that. You know, what with the whole "cancer to the team" thing (or was it Jessica who said that? Either way... Bad odds).
On January 04 2014 16:05 Kheve wrote: As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
Why do you think we'd want to play Proleague or join KeSPA? Did people suddenly forget years of questionable practice just because they got some shiny new graphics and more agreeable commentators for Proleague? We don't want to play Proleague right now because if you do you're basically stuck in Korea for half a year. You can't go and play WCS in another region if you have a small roster because KeSPA will not schedule around you, you have to stay there and play your matches. Axiom-Acer has a total of 4 of its 7 players competing in other regions WCS at the moment. It is entirely different in terms of logistics. It makes no business sense to play in Proleague and since right now our players agreed they didn't want to participate this season, we certainly won't force them.
On January 04 2014 16:05 Kheve wrote: As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
No matter how open it is, KeSPA might still require at least stability imo. It reads Korean funded organization with preferably more than one game (hi LoL), vision for development and commitment to the league. That would hopefully rule out foreign owned team (or whatever you want to call it), partnertships or anything sketchy. These things are just not healthy for KeSPA/Proleague in general. No offense btw.
On January 04 2014 14:48 ETisME wrote: can't we just call axiom foreign owned korean team
That would be to simple and easy. I think we should argue about it for at least 10 more pages and complain about TB supporting the players we enjoy and being cynical, snarky Brit.
For some reason I find your statement sarcastic and quite frankly, insulting to my intelligence! Let's type more passive aggressive posts in order to continue this cycle of egotistical warfare.
On January 04 2014 16:05 Kheve wrote: As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
Why do you think we'd want to play Proleague or join KeSPA? Did people suddenly forget years of questionable practice just because they got some shiny new graphics and more agreeable commentators for Proleague? We don't want to play Proleague right now because if you do you're basically stuck in Korea for half a year. You can't go and play WCS in another region if you have a small roster because KeSPA will not schedule around you, you have to stay there and play your matches. Axiom-Acer has a total of 4 of its 7 players competing in other regions WCS at the moment. It is entirely different in terms of logistics. It makes no business sense to play in Proleague and since right now our players agreed they didn't want to participate this season, we certainly won't force them.
Urrmmm live and let live. Kespa did a lots of good back then too (more good than bad imo). But anyhow, I get now why some teams might not choose to join proleague. As for bolded point, I'll take that as hope for next season then!!! Till then good luck on both teams.
On January 04 2014 16:05 Kheve wrote: As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
Why do you think we'd want to play Proleague or join KeSPA? Did people suddenly forget years of questionable practice just because they got some shiny new graphics and more agreeable commentators for Proleague? We don't want to play Proleague right now because if you do you're basically stuck in Korea for half a year. You can't go and play WCS in another region if you have a small roster because KeSPA will not schedule around you, you have to stay there and play your matches. Axiom-Acer has a total of 4 of its 7 players competing in other regions WCS at the moment. It is entirely different in terms of logistics. It makes no business sense to play in Proleague and since right now our players agreed they didn't want to participate this season, we certainly won't force them.
At first I thought you missed the point I was driving home and after reading this post it sounds like you understand what I was saying but willingly chose to dance around the idea entirely. This was one of the main features of what I wrote when it comes down to players choosing teams to go to. Right now, there really is no downside to joining Western teams because there is still a lot more freedom. You spin-doctored what I said lol.
Now then, let's go back to your original response. You brought up the ATC and I believe you said you guys won because you had the most well-rounded roster, but probably not the best players. What? Look at the bloody format. Where I come from well-rounded means you're only as good as your weakest player yet in the ATC it doesn't really matter if you lose because you can just field them again regardless of the result. The format doesn't really highlight that trait compared to all the other team leagues.
As for the GSTL. While the format has gotten a bit better over time we've only gotten to the point of a round of robin play and then playoffs. Flash in the pan. They just decided to drag it out more and the turn over just got ridiculous at that point. 6 different teams have won a tournament (I'm just going to call the GSTL a tournament rather than a league because that's what the format really illustrates) out of ten tournaments. That's quite a few don't you think? Cutos to IM for taking three & SlayerS and FXO for taking two respectfully.
On January 04 2014 14:48 ETisME wrote: can't we just call axiom foreign owned korean team
That would be to simple and easy. I think we should argue about it for at least 10 more pages and complain about TB supporting the players we enjoy and being cynical, snarky Brit.
For some reason I find your statement sarcastic and quite frankly, insulting to my intelligence! Let's type more passive aggressive posts in order to continue this cycle of egotistical warfare.
This is getting ridiculous, how are you supposed to have a discussion if everyone gets immediately offended over every little thing and starts crying like a little child. Seriously grow some balls or if you are too sensitive cry somewhere else about this mean sarcastic, passive aggressive world…
On January 04 2014 14:48 ETisME wrote: can't we just call axiom foreign owned korean team
That would be to simple and easy. I think we should argue about it for at least 10 more pages and complain about TB supporting the players we enjoy and being cynical, snarky Brit.
For some reason I find your statement sarcastic and quite frankly, insulting to my intelligence! Let's type more passive aggressive posts in order to continue this cycle of egotistical warfare.
This is getting ridiculous, how are you supposed to have a discussion if everyone gets immediately offended over every little thing and starts crying like a little child. Seriously grow some balls or if you are too sensitive cry somewhere else about this mean sarcastic, passive aggressive world…
You seem to have made a mistake when you filled in your country of origin, you have selected Austria, I'm pretty sure you meant Romania.
On January 04 2014 16:05 Kheve wrote: As I recall Kespa had an open invitation to all teams to join them. They waived many prior conditions/rules that existed from BW era.
Since Axiom already have a teamhouse that could accomodate acer as well, wouldnt it have made sense to just apply to join kespa+proleague? After all the facilities already exists due to AxiomAcer, why not go a step further. Surely it cant be all that different in costs/logistics/etc etc between proleague and gstl.
Maybe then, the remaining teams like startale azubu etc etc might band together and join proleague as well. Then we can have a 10 team proleague!!!!
Why do you think we'd want to play Proleague or join KeSPA? Did people suddenly forget years of questionable practice just because they got some shiny new graphics and more agreeable commentators for Proleague? We don't want to play Proleague right now because if you do you're basically stuck in Korea for half a year. You can't go and play WCS in another region if you have a small roster because KeSPA will not schedule around you, you have to stay there and play your matches. Axiom-Acer has a total of 4 of its 7 players competing in other regions WCS at the moment. It is entirely different in terms of logistics. It makes no business sense to play in Proleague and since right now our players agreed they didn't want to participate this season, we certainly won't force them.
At first I thought you missed the point I was driving home and after reading this post it sounds like you understand what I was saying but willingly chose to dance around the idea entirely. This was one of the main features of what I wrote when it comes down to players choosing teams to go to. Right now, there really is no downside to joining Western teams because there is still a lot more freedom. You spin-doctored what I said lol.
Now then, let's go back to your original response. You brought up the ATC and I believe you said you guys won because you had the most well-rounded roster, but probably not the best players. What? Look at the bloody format. Where I come from well-rounded means you're only as good as your weakest player yet in the ATC it doesn't really matter if you lose because you can just field them again regardless of the result. The format doesn't really highlight that trait compared to all the other team leagues.
As for the GSTL. While the format has gotten a bit better over time we've only gotten to the point of a round of robin play and then playoffs. Flash in the pan. They just decided to drag it out more and the turn over just got ridiculous at that point. 6 different teams have won a tournament (I'm just going to call the GSTL a tournament rather than a league because that's what the format really illustrates) out of ten tournaments. That's quite a few don't you think? Cutos to IM for taking three & SlayerS and FXO for taking two respectfully.
I wasn't even responding to you in the first place, my post was a reply to Kheve not you.
No matter how open it is, KeSPA might still require at least stability imo. It reads Korean funded organization with preferably more than one game (hi LoL), vision for development and commitment to the league. That would hopefully rule out foreign owned team (or whatever you want to call it), partnertships or anything sketchy. These things are just not healthy for KeSPA/Proleague in general. No offense btw.
Get ready for more partnerships as teams implode over the next 12 months or have to shed players to continue to survive. I've yet to see a single good reason why a "partnership" is not healthy for Proleague. EGTL was extremely healthy for Proleague, hell it was the only thing bringing viewers in most nights, with on average double the viewership every time that team played. KeSPA gets it, why can't you? It seems like some viewers live in an idealistic world where all these 20 man teams just pay for themselves and do really well on the basis of their talent alone. Everyone else is living in the real world where these teams are under threat if their main sponsor decides to call it quits (see WJS, Soul and many others) and they have to do whatever it takes to survive.
On January 04 2014 10:06 aeligos wrote: WCS killing teams...again.
What does WCS have to do with it? Aside from the obvious that we don't really wanna do Proleague because it would interfere with playing in WCS, WCS is not the reason GSTL went tits up.
Ofc it has to do with it TB. WCS is made by Blizzard and everyone knows that no matter what, Blizzard is at fault when something goes not 100% perfect.
On January 04 2014 03:54 Shellshock wrote: That's too bad but it's not surprising with no GSTL. I wonder where Scarlett is going to live to practice in 2014
I really hope she can find somewhere in Korea. To quote Joe Rogan - steel sharpens steel - you have to fight the best to be the best. And the only place you can get that daily - is on the Korean ladder.
Baffles me why more pros don't camp in Korea to train. Guess it all comes down to £$€.
EPT
