|
Canada14127 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding?
Because there is no global regulating organization that assigns fair points to all events. And all events are not completely open to every single player (mainly because of travel costs).
|
On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding?
Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it.
Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people.
Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier.
EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me..
Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example).
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding?
How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly?
|
There is seeding in Code S Ro32 group stage, similar to world cup group draws.
|
On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly?
You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament.
So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it. Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people. Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier. EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me.. Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example).
Seeds were handed out at Blizzcon, and I believe 6 out of the 8 higher seeded players won their initial matches.
On December 12 2013 04:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament. So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival.
The issue with seeding by WCS points is that higher seeded players would, on average, take all the top spots since they will have an easier time reaching the elimination stages. I'm not a fan of WCS seeding in tournaments like Dreamhack because to me those are the tournaments that give those eliminated from WCS second chances when the WCS seasons are still ongoing. Given the easier paths to those already in prime position to reach the Global Finals would make it even harder to reach the Global Finals from non-WCS tournaments, and I don't think that's the point.
|
On December 12 2013 04:16 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it. Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people. Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier. EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me.. Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example). Seeds were handed out at Blizzcon, and I believe 6 out of the 8 higher seeded players won their initial matches. Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:14 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament. So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival. The issue with seeding by WCS points is that higher seeded players would, on average, take all the top spots since they will have an easier time reaching the elimination stages. I'm not a fan of WCS seeding in tournaments like Dreamhack because to me those are the tournaments that give those eliminated from WCS second chances when the WCS seasons are still ongoing. Given the easier paths to those already in prime position to reach the Global Finals would make it even harder to reach the Global Finals from non-WCS tournaments, and I don't think that's the point.
Well, I'm not saying it's a fair and all around better way to run a tournament.
I'm just saying that it will yield much more consistent results such as the ones seen in other sports.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:16 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it. Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people. Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier. EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me.. Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example). Seeds were handed out at Blizzcon, and I believe 6 out of the 8 higher seeded players won their initial matches. On December 12 2013 04:14 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament. So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival. The issue with seeding by WCS points is that higher seeded players would, on average, take all the top spots since they will have an easier time reaching the elimination stages. I'm not a fan of WCS seeding in tournaments like Dreamhack because to me those are the tournaments that give those eliminated from WCS second chances when the WCS seasons are still ongoing. Given the easier paths to those already in prime position to reach the Global Finals would make it even harder to reach the Global Finals from non-WCS tournaments, and I don't think that's the point. Well, I'm not saying it's a fair and all around better way to run a tournament. I'm just saying that it will yield much more consistent results such as the ones seen in other sports.
Well, yes, but I just don't think we should value artificially created consistency (and I think it's been established that SC2 actually isn't that volatile if you take a good look at it) that highly.
|
There is volatility in the game sure but I think it mostly has to do with a constantly changing metagame that gets patched as soon as its starting to settle a little bit. You can still see the better player having more tournament wins and win rates anyway. You just can't look at single tourmament but instead have to look at the bigger picture right now.
|
On December 12 2013 04:24 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:16 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it. Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people. Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier. EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me.. Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example). Seeds were handed out at Blizzcon, and I believe 6 out of the 8 higher seeded players won their initial matches. On December 12 2013 04:14 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament. So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival. The issue with seeding by WCS points is that higher seeded players would, on average, take all the top spots since they will have an easier time reaching the elimination stages. I'm not a fan of WCS seeding in tournaments like Dreamhack because to me those are the tournaments that give those eliminated from WCS second chances when the WCS seasons are still ongoing. Given the easier paths to those already in prime position to reach the Global Finals would make it even harder to reach the Global Finals from non-WCS tournaments, and I don't think that's the point. Well, I'm not saying it's a fair and all around better way to run a tournament. I'm just saying that it will yield much more consistent results such as the ones seen in other sports. Well, yes, but I just don't think we should value artificially created consistency (and I think it's been established that SC2 actually isn't that volatile if you take a good look at it) that highly.
I agree with you. I don't think there NEEDS to be consistency. Just pointing out why it's different from other sports.
Besides, I think it's pretty easy to tell who the top few players are anyway...
Soulkey, Jaedong, Taeja, Innovation, Maru, sOs, Dear are showing up at the top consistently at every event they attend.
Top 2 foreigners are obviously Scarlett and Naniwa (not in any particular order).
|
But it's not that different from other sports. Golf has huge variance and team sports don't have the same champion every season. Or even the same teams in the play offs every season. Even dota 2 has good variance in who wins.
If there is going to be a constant champion, I want it to be because thy are just that good, rather them because the league favors last seasons champions.
|
On December 12 2013 04:24 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:21 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:16 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? Well, with WCS in place, I think we could move in a direction to do that. The problem is in order to have seeding you need to have universally accepted standards. So prior to WCS and WCS points you couldn't really do it. Now with most "major" events having WCS pts attributed to them and Blizzard keeping tally of everyone's WCS points, you could seed people. Tennis has been around forever and most tournaments played are on the ATP World Tour standard.. so its much easier. EDIT - Ninja'd by the guy before me.. Also because there is more money in other sports its much easier to make sure everyone important goes to every event. But even some top StarCraft players can not make it to certain events because of costs. SO i think there is a fear that if you seed you're unfairly giving points to players whose teams can afford to send them everyone (like Jaedong, for example). Seeds were handed out at Blizzcon, and I believe 6 out of the 8 higher seeded players won their initial matches. On December 12 2013 04:14 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? You could do it by WCS points, the same way they did it at the global finals at Blizzcon. But for every tournament. So for example if Naniwa has to play Soulkey every time in the first round, he doesn't go as far on average vs. if he had to play someone like Alive or Revival. The issue with seeding by WCS points is that higher seeded players would, on average, take all the top spots since they will have an easier time reaching the elimination stages. I'm not a fan of WCS seeding in tournaments like Dreamhack because to me those are the tournaments that give those eliminated from WCS second chances when the WCS seasons are still ongoing. Given the easier paths to those already in prime position to reach the Global Finals would make it even harder to reach the Global Finals from non-WCS tournaments, and I don't think that's the point. Well, I'm not saying it's a fair and all around better way to run a tournament. I'm just saying that it will yield much more consistent results such as the ones seen in other sports. Well, yes, but I just don't think we should value artificially created consistency (and I think it's been established that SC2 actually isn't that volatile if you take a good look at it) that highly.
Fully agree with that.
In particular, when we take the GSL as an example, who are the guys that made the finals:
2011-2012
- the first and second generation of topplayers (Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, DRG, MMA)
- the usual suspects of consistent players when they had a good run (e.g Genius, July, Squirtle, Leenock)
2012-2013
- some from the 2011-2012 section
- young upcomers when they had their breakthroughs (e.g. Life, Maru, Dear)
- the new Kespa elite (INnoVation, Soulkey, Rain...)
apart from that, how many real upsets have there been? Players with only one strong performance.
Jjakji, Seed, Sniper. And even of those you could discuss Jjakji and to a certain degree Seed.
|
your Country52797 Posts
I'm just wondering, what is the OP's intention of putting all the reasons in the OP? Some of them contradict others 
|
First of all, e-sport and sport can't be compared.
That being said, you have to look not only on the sc2 side. You take for example Novak Djokovic. Yes, there's many surfaces (clay, grass, hard, indoor) many styles (lefthanded, kick, slice, volley...) but it's not the entire story.
With his impressiv win ratio, Novak is still "only" world number 2.
In tournaments, tennismen are protected by their rank. It means that Novak will NEVER play a top 4 player before the semi-final. It's like saying that soulkey can't meet dear before the final in any tournament and get some easy foreigners for start 
If you look more into it, you will see that Novak, very often, starts badly a tournament and plays the final at far higher level. This sport is taking into consideration the adaptation time of a player who travel and have to adapt to the tournament. There's also at least one night between two matches, this helps to prepare.
You see, you can't compare things but you can improve one by knowing the other...
|
SC2 is just as consistent as other sports.
Ex: Houston Texans this year were starting out as favorites for making it deep into the playoffs. Now they are 2-11.
EDIT:
The fact that people like soulkey, JD, innovation and mvp exist basically rules out that SC2 isn't consistent. You can't have 5 2nd place finishes and a win under your belt and say the game is not consistent.
|
On December 12 2013 04:55 The_Templar wrote:I'm just wondering, what is the OP's intention of putting all the reasons in the OP? Some of them contradict others
It is an unbiased collection of all the answers so far.
This way, everyone can form his opinion at a glance and avoids posting duplicates.
|
The game isn't as "inconsistent" as some people think it is.
People try way too hard to find more excuses to hate SC2.
|
On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly?
By having a reliable world ranking. Like in every other individual sport.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 12 2013 05:06 virpi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 04:12 Zealously wrote:On December 12 2013 04:06 urboss wrote:On December 12 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 02:21 urboss wrote:
Just to put it into perspective:
Win percentages
Vitali Klitschko 95.7%
Novak Djokovic (2013) 90.2%
Taeja 68.28%
Innovation 67.4%
Dear 67.35%
Jaedong 61.8%
Soulkey 60.7%
Maru 58.0%
Most top level SC2 players have win percentages between 60 and 70 %.
If all have more or less the same win ratio then the results will be random when they play each other.
There is no one player that is standing out.
I guess Innovation came closest to that before the patch. Guys, very important. In other sports, namely Tennis, there is SEEDING. Meaning the best players play against the worst players in the first few rounds of a bracket. In StarCraft, there is no seeding. So we frequently end up with "groups of death" (Taeja, Innovation, sOs ForGG in one group at DH Winter, for example). If we had seeding, more of the best players would advance further in each tournament, giving them a higher chance of winning it all in the end. In Tennis, The Joker rarely has to play anyone good until the quarter finals at least. In StarCraft, it's not uncommon for top players at a tournament to end up in the group stage together and eliminate each other early, freeing up spots for other players to take. Interesting point! The next question would be: Why is there no seeding? How would you decide seeding when tournaments are considered equally important? Arbitrarly? By having a reliable world ranking. Like in every other individual sport.
It's hard to create a reliable world ranking with a good point system when tournament attendance isn't as fixed as it is in other individual sports. Should Dreamhack Winter and IEM New York award an equal amount of points toward seeding? If not, how big should the difference be? How do we decide which tournaments are worth X points when sometimes there won't be as many good players as there were on another tournament in the same tournament circuit. Like, should DH: Valencia and DH: Bucharest award the same amount of points, even if one only has three elite players while the other has ten? Although WCS is a step on the way toward a more unified system, we're still far away from a solid way to determine the significance of X event vs Y event, and no ranking can be even nearly as reliable as the one you're asking for until that's in place. A major problem here is that it isn't always a guarantee that elite players will attend your tournament. Look at IEM Singapore, for example.
|
On December 12 2013 05:06 MCXD wrote:
The game isn't as "inconsistent" as some people think it is.
People try way too hard to find more excuses to hate SC2.
Pretty much.
"Oh we have a different champion again? INCONSISTENT GAME!" but lets completely ignore the fact that they have placed in the top 8 for seasons in a row. Lets ignore that the nestea award exists (top 32 in the world [basically] for 10 seasons in a row? How much more consistent can you get?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
