Other - HerO, the Boss Toss, Parting, Naniwa, or someone else (45)
8%
574 total votes
Your vote: Who is the Best Protoss
(Vote): Dear - Back to back wins, such mindblowing timings (Vote): sOs - Grand finals champion, always ahead of the metagame (Vote): Rain - Ultimate defense, impeccable mechanics (Vote): Other - HerO, the Boss Toss, Parting, Naniwa, or someone else
HotS has really seen a huge leap forward in Protoss play. Not just in terms of results, but in terms of style and skill level. In the latter days of WoL, Protoss seemed to struggle to win major tournaments. Even the legendary Boss Toss wasn't as dominant as he used to be, and when Protoss did win, it often felt a little flukey and not entirely sustainable...
But a new breed of Dragons have emerged. Players from BW, with stunning mechanics paired with incredible strategic innovations. Players who have redefined what we think the Protoss race is capable of.
There are many good Protoss out there. MC is the most successful and consistent SC2 Protoss of all time, and he's still no slouch today. HerO's skill with multitasking remains amazing. PartinG's got soul, Naniwa's got attitude, Duckduck is capable of beating anyone, and Oz is a terrifying force in PvP.
But to my mind, 3 Protosses have separated themselves from the pack over the last year. They aren't just good, they're genuinely great. They are:
Dear Three months ago, Dear was relatively unhyped. If he wasn't a complete unknown, he certainly hadn't yet distinguished himself on the SC2 scene. But all that changed when he went on perhaps the most dominant run of any SC2 player since Life's storied peak. It wasn't just that he tore through both WCS Korea and the Season 3 Finals--it was the way he did it. He showed a combination of skills that hadn't been shown by any Protoss before. Amazing gamesense to always have just enough units to defend and hold off drops, while meanwhile he's attacking all over the map, using his amazing micro to win small engagement after small engagement. He has an uncanny knack for figuring out the perfect time to strike, right when his opponent is at their most vulnerable--and even when he's on his back foot, he'll simply play perfect defense, wait for his opponent to make a mistake, and then punish it. Though he didn't win the Global Finals, he manhandled Taeja and played one of the best series of the year against JaeDong, so its clear that Dear's skills are still sharp.
Rain For a long while this year, Rain's hold on the title of best Protoss was undisputed. The first BW Protoss to transition in a truly dominant way to SC2, Rain's claim to fame is simple--he is hands down the best defensive Protoss in Sc2 history. His mechanics are incredible, but he combines them with insane patience and perfect discipline. He doesn't take stupid risks, and he doesn't make mistakes. He just defends and defends and defends while building the exact composition he needs to win. It is the polar opposite of the "aggressive Toss" style that had dominated WoL (see: MC, PartinG), and he makes it look scarily dominant. Rain hasn't won a big tournament recently, but he's still a very dominant player, and it would be foolish to think he's not a threat to win big in 2014.
sOs In the start of 2013, sOs seemed to be poised to dominate SC2. He was so far ahead of the metagame it wasn't even funny, and the styles he was pioneering would soon gone on to become the new standard, particularly in PvZ. But as people caught up with his innovations, it seemed like sOs wasn't quite the force he'd been. But that all changed in one phenomenal tournament. Over this past weekend, sOs walked into a tournament of the very best players in the world, and he brutalized them. Just look at these wins: 3-1 HerO 3-1 Polt 3-1 Bomber 4-1 Jaedong 13-4 total He played every matchup, and looked amazing in all of them. In particular, the Templar first PvT style he and Dear play looks certain to become the new standard (though few can match sOs' Jangbi-like Storms). But sOs did what even Dear couldn't, mindgaming and ultimately outplaying JaeDong on the biggest stage. In the world's biggest, toughest tournament, sOs showed us all what he's really made of.
3 Dragons. 3 great Protoss players. 3 unique playtsyles that have resulted in numerous impressive wins.
The question is: Who of them is the best of all? At this moment, who is the world's best Protoss player?
(of course, if you think its someone else, just say so. But you're going to have to make a strong argument, because I think these 3 have clearly put themselves above the pack).
Personally, despite sOs' big win, I think Dear is the top. His series with JaeDong came down to a nailbiter, and if he'd won it, I suspect we'd be talking about Dear as a 3 in a row champion right now. More importantly, though he's not quite as tricky as sOs, in terms of sheer ability I think he's the most impressive--its like he combines the best of Rain's defense with MC's timing, PartinG's army control and HerO's multitask. Others may do one or two specific things better, but Dear has the complete package to an unparalleled degree.
Lots of players have had high peaks, time will tell with Dear. Not 100% sold on him yet.
Rain is at sOs' heels but sOs has just been more consistent and has actually won some gold.
I'm not much for in the moment rankings, so for 2013 so far with several tournaments left that can change things:
sOs Rain Dear PartinG First (2013 would also include WoL where First won IEM Katowice only dropping 2 games) Trap Duckdeok HerO MC Naniwa San Hurricane
might be forgetting a few but that seems pretty reasonable
I'd give Dear the top spot with sOs close behind. After that it's pretty muddled between who's playing well at the time. I think Trap, PartinG, and Rain can all play like top toss when their on their game as well as some other toss like HerO, San, and Hurricane.
I thought duckdeok also put on a pretty good performance this weekend too. I almost feel like he's taken over MC's role as the guy who can just beat anyone with a perfectly executed all in. If he can get more comfortable in varying styles of games he could really become a top level player.
Dear hasn't had enough time to prove himself yet in my opinion, he's had some amazing results for sure but will he show this same level of player for a long period of time or will he just be another player who does shows us some amazing stuff then disappears? He certainly seems to be the all-around package at the moment though.
on the other hand, the way sOs plays seems far more 'organic' than other players. I don't really know how else to explain it but it's like he approaches each game as something entirely new (rather than blindly following build orders) and isn't afraid to improvise on the spot. I feel like this really works to his advantage since not only does it give him a huge advantage in any nonstandard game, but the Protoss race tends to punish their opponent's failed / lack of scouting pretty harshly. Any game sOs loses seems to be a very close thing, and a lot of the games he wins seem to be almost elegantly easy.
As much as I love Rain, he's far from being the best protoss at the moment. He'll have to work his ass off to become number 1 again. While his style can work, he should really exploit the image everyone has of him imo - more mindgames, more metagaming, more balls. As of late, even his defense hasn't been that good.
Dear is my pick due to his reactive style and aggression. Basically a better MC without overcommitment MC does so often.
sOs is the best today though for winning WCS finals
I dont care for Rain AT ALL. Hate marco games unless they are action packed whole time and Rain is the macro toss.
I think it's irresponsible to leave out MC. Even with Dear and sOs' recent success he still is #3 Protoss in money this year.- was #1 until two weeks ago - and you know can take any tournament if he's playing well.
Tough question. I think Dear still sits on the high chair as Executor in the Citadel. But, I'm just happy that our race has three champions able to have such distinctive play styles and to be successful at the highest level of the game.
Haven't watched day 2 of blizzcon yet, but I still think it's Dear by a large margin. I think I'd even pick Sora over the others (because fuck results, trust is what matters =D )
On November 10 2013 15:03 Nebuchad wrote: Haven't watched day 2 of blizzcon yet, but I still think it's Dear by a large margin. I think I'd even pick Sora over the others (because fuck results, trust is what matters =D )
On November 10 2013 15:03 Nebuchad wrote: Haven't watched day 2 of blizzcon yet, but I still think it's Dear by a large margin. I think I'd even pick Sora over the others (because fuck results, trust is what matters =D )
sOs played incredibly well on day 2. He was a step ahead of both Bomber and Jaedong all day.
I think after this blizzcon, if it wasn't obvious before, it should be obvious now.
You just can't rank the top players. I mean you can, if you want, but it's not accurate.
There is no best player, or best protoss/zerg/terran. There's just a group of top players that can take games from each other at any moment.
sOs isn't the best player of the year, neither is SoulKey, or Jaedong, or INnoVation, or Dear. They're all top players well above most, but on the same level as the likes of Taeja, HerO, Bomber, Maru, Polt. And lots of players not mentioned here are also on their same level. Look at Jaedong's semi finals game where he "rises to the next level" and then gets crushed by sOs. Does that mean sOs is beyond that? Nope. They're clearly equals and sOs had some amazing new builds to bring the victory.
With that said, for fun, I voted for Dear, because his play has impressed me the most recently. But still, I think it should be pretty obvious that "best" doesn't actually exist in this game. Undecided on if that's a good thing or not.
And on top of that, who's the best terran? Terran seems to be in shambles right now, I suppose maru has to be the best but I have a hard time ever putting money on the guy.
I dont like when people simply chalk up sOs's wins to being something the other player isn't used to or that he's cheesy. While there is some of that, he hasn't used it or as a crutch or simply relied on braindead allins as so many other toss players have (though he mixes them in). His macro play is simply fantastic and his play is beautifully creative.
He might have the best anti drop defense of any toss I've seen. He was constantly saving bases that looked 100% dead and his reaction time was amazing. Without any prior vision he would instantly jump across the map from where his army was to immediately feedback/storm a medivac just barely boosting into his vision. It was unreal. In addition, his army positioning and composition is always spot on with constant, CONSTANT scouting and comes with some awesome reactionary play based on that scouting that no one else ever does.
On top of that, he constantly mixes up his play and mindgames the shit out of his opponent, making him one of the best series players so far.
I don't know if I can say he's 100% the best atm, but he's been doing some incredible, metagame advancing play, and people don't seem to realize it yet. I picked him to win blizzcon and my friend laughed at me...who's laughing now!? haha
Trap is definitely among the best players too. His high templar control in late game PvT is phenomenal. His use of warp prisms to micro high templars in the late game is outstanding and beautiful to watch. I expect to see a lot from him in the near future!
I think MC's PvZ is the most solid right now with it looking really strong. At least from how I feel with seeing other toss on pvz. So I think in this order for top PvZ is MC SoS ??? is how I feel.
For PvT: clearly we have to give this to Dear and Sos in a tie. They both give off the same aura that they are stable compare to the rest.
As for pvp, I have no clue everyone feels so close to each other.
In my opinion I really can't think we can lump all the toss to be the best in overall. It just doesn't seem that way to me at all at least from the past wcs event.
Protoss players have to change their playstyle very often which makes it hard to stay at the top for a long time so it's nice to see a lot of Protoss doing well lately.
I love Rain and sOs but i think right now Dear is the best.
On November 10 2013 16:31 slowbacontron wrote: imo, it's pretty indisputable that Hurricane is not only best toss, but best player, given that he holds the title of Unofficial World Champion
I think we need a Hurrican vs sOs bo101 showmatch to decide that
On November 10 2013 16:31 slowbacontron wrote: imo, it's pretty indisputable that Hurricane is not only best toss, but best player, given that he holds the title of Unofficial World Champion
I think we need a Hurrican vs sOs bo101 showmatch to decide that
hmm, Unofficial WC vs. Official WC. I guess the winner would be the Official Unofficial Official WC.
On November 10 2013 16:32 blade55555 wrote: To me Dear seems really good. I wasn't that impressed with sos where as dear just can play and look so dominating.
I don't think it's accurate to characterize Dear as a timing-based player, to me his strength is to always be able to be aware of the various advantages (tech, army, economy) in a long macro game and know exactly what he has to do in order to even it up or to win.
I would say Dear is right now the most solid, but on the other hand, right now prottos isnt a race of solidness but more of mind games/strategy/tactics/gimmicky, and on that part i would give sos the edge.
On November 10 2013 16:54 Kingsky wrote: sOs he won blizzcon isnt that THE premier tournament >_>. how can people still vote for dear
Because a lot of sports based on weekend tournaments (not a season) are like this. Olympics are the best example. For a lot of sports, the olympics are THE premier event. But lots of times, the # 1 ranked player (the best) doesn't necessarily win due to things like condition that day, draws, a player getting hot. In sports like these, it is more about performing consistently.
On November 10 2013 16:54 Kingsky wrote: sOs he won blizzcon isnt that THE premier tournament >_>. how can people still vote for dear
It is interesting - I orginally voted for Dear but it is hard to say - sOs carpe diemed the shit out of Blizzcon, no one deserves the title more and yet lingering in the back of my mind is the question of sustainability for a champion like sOs...
Time will tell. How smart is his play though? Man that guy has some intelligence...tricked the shiznizzlebangfizzle out of JD! lol.
When players have figured out Dear's several timings, he will fall back to being an average code S protoss, and will never again be seen as a championship contender. Literally everything that could've worked out in his favor in WCS KR season 3 did so, and he was very fortunate to reach the finals, along with his average opponent, Soo. The season 3 finals came too soon for players, especially zerg, to figure out his timings. But Jaedong proved that once one has figured them out, Dear can do nothing but struggle helplessly in his mediocre lategame against superior SC2 players.
I still think it is Rain. Though Dear and sos are amazing, Rain has been the best protoss since that first OSL. More than a year. He always does well in tournaments, he owned face in proleage. Sad he didn't have enough points to get to Blizzcon.
INnoVation - recently unimpressive but otherwise amazing this year (6)
18%
Bomber - WCS S2 win, good results elsewhere but inconsistent (5)
15%
Other - Polt, MMA, (2)
6%
TaeJa - strong foreign wins but hasn't shined as much as last year (1)
3%
33 total votes
Your vote: Who is the best Terran?
(Vote): INnoVation - recently unimpressive but otherwise amazing this year (Vote): Maru - OSL win, three straight semi-finals (Vote): Bomber - WCS S2 win, good results elsewhere but inconsistent (Vote): TaeJa - strong foreign wins but hasn't shined as much as last year (Vote): Other - Polt, MMA,
Poll: Who is the best Zerg?
Soulkey - amazingly consistent, high level player (21)
53%
Jaedong - looking great recently, but unable to eke out tournament golds (14)
35%
Life - Great micro and unique play (5)
13%
Other (0)
0%
40 total votes
Your vote: Who is the best Zerg?
(Vote): Soulkey - amazingly consistent, high level player (Vote): Jaedong - looking great recently, but unable to eke out tournament golds (Vote): Life - Great micro and unique play (Vote): Other
i guess this is another interesting discussion for the two other races too
P.s. Squirtle... your fans are still waiting for you to return to the top
HOLY SHIT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!
Currently Dear. The only toss so far that I regard as the complete package, though his last 2 games against JD where he seemed to pull out needless allins made me think twice. The image of Dear storm-dropping Maru amidst jaw-dropping terran aggression is burned into my retina though
On November 10 2013 17:54 Pontius Pirate wrote: When players have figured out Dear's several timings, he will fall back to being an average code S protoss, and will never again be seen as a championship contender. Literally everything that could've worked out in his favor in WCS KR season 3 did so, and he was very fortunate to reach the finals, along with his average opponent, Soo. The season 3 finals came too soon for players, especially zerg, to figure out his timings. But Jaedong proved that once one has figured them out, Dear can do nothing but struggle helplessly in his mediocre lategame against superior SC2 players.
"Mediocre lategame"? He also showed epic lategame skills against Maru. This looks more like a typical post hating on the alleged "protoss is a gimmick race" concept. At the very least, I see Dear being as good as Innovation- extremely strong in 2 matchups and weak in one atm ost.
It's BroodWar come again. Here we have the Three Kings and the Legend of the Fall all over again with three protoss championships (two champions) and three great protosses.
Rain was doing so well but then kinda dropped off right around the proleague finals, hopefully he returns to form. sOs is definitely second in my book, overall super solid, great mindgames and strategies, and obviously the world champ deserves respect. I still have to say Dear is the best though. His games just stand out so much more as him not winning through any sort of trickery or mindgames, but just being better than his opponent in all his mechanics.
Even though sOs showed some gamechanging strategies and won the grand finals I think that Dear just plays way more solid and makes better ingame decisions.
I was pretty sure Dear was the best player in the world, last weekend. This weekend, he actually did some mistakes and we haven't seen too much of his PvP, which should be his worst matchup. sOs actually destroy PvP and he beat Jaedong, which Dear couldn't. Both have amazing PvT, I really don't know, but since sOs is crowned the world champion of SC2, you cannot really argue with that.
Nice to see a whole breadth of top players of each race maes it more exciting. I think Dear is the best toss but sOs entertains me more. Best zerg Soulkey/Jaedong with players like life and HyuN bringing up the rear. Terran I think is the toughest to choose from with Inno MMA Maru Bomber Polt leading the pack. Hmmm imo when Inno is at the top of his game he is the best but Im looking forward to watch Maru improve
P.s. Squirtle... your fans are still waiting for you to return to the top
HOLY SHIT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!
Currently Dear. The only toss so far that I regard as the complete package, though his last 2 games against JD where he seemed to pull out needless allins made me think twice. The image of Dear storm-dropping Maru amidst jaw-dropping terran aggression is burned into my retina though
On November 10 2013 17:54 Pontius Pirate wrote: When players have figured out Dear's several timings, he will fall back to being an average code S protoss, and will never again be seen as a championship contender. Literally everything that could've worked out in his favor in WCS KR season 3 did so, and he was very fortunate to reach the finals, along with his average opponent, Soo. The season 3 finals came too soon for players, especially zerg, to figure out his timings. But Jaedong proved that once one has figured them out, Dear can do nothing but struggle helplessly in his mediocre lategame against superior SC2 players.
"Mediocre lategame"? He also showed epic lategame skills against Maru. This looks more like a typical post hating on the alleged "protoss is a gimmick race" concept. At the very least, I see Dear being as good as Innovation- extremely strong in 2 matchups and weak in one atm ost.
Ya pontius is a hater...with no objectivity..."mediocre later game"...thats a troll comment right there...
On November 10 2013 21:06 GumBa wrote: Nice to see a whole breadth of top players of each race maes it more exciting. I think Dear is the best toss but sOs entertains me more. Best zerg Soulkey/Jaedong with players like life and HyuN bringing up the rear. Terran I think is the toughest to choose from with Inno MMA Maru Bomber Polt leading the pack. Hmmm imo when Inno is at the top of his game he is the best but Im looking forward to watch Maru improve
i don't think mma or polt have any claim at the top terran tbh
hmm. tough to say, but in my eyes atm it's definetely sOs, winning bo5s or bo7s against all 3 races (also people who became wcs champions) and only losing 1 game every series. this is impressive as hell and he was always calm and collected in his game. sOs got the upper hand and is on top of the protoss world for now. Dear is close, dear is impressive, dear played exceptionally well, but when it came to the 5th game against jd, he lost it, he was not himself. he went for a 4 gate, then stopped it, then panicked. he didnt build any probes and went on to blink all in with like 35 probes? he panicked, sos didn't that's the difference here. they are both crazy good players, but sOs has the upper hand when it comes to nerves and mind games.
On November 10 2013 22:29 Undead1993 wrote: hmm. tough to say, but in my eyes atm it's definetely sOs, winning bo5s or bo7s against all 3 races (also people who became wcs champions) and only losing 1 game every series. this is impressive as hell and he was always calm and collected in his game. sOs got the upper hand and is on top of the protoss world for now. Dear is close, dear is impressive, dear played exceptionally well, but when it came to the 5th game against jd, he lost it, he was not himself. he went for a 4 gate, then stopped it, then panicked. he didnt build any probes and went on to blink all in with like 35 probes? he panicked, sos didn't that's the difference here. they are both crazy good players, but sOs has the upper hand when it comes to nerves and mind games.
I would agree if it weren't for Dear's pre-Blizzcon record in Bo5s being 6-0 vP, 8-2 vZ, 6-1 vT. I agree that he didn't play his series like Jaedong like he could have (should have?) but his games during the weeks up until Blizzcon were extremely impressive. I could stretch to sOs being on Dear's level, but I'm not sold on him having surpassed Dear right now. RBBG will tell us more.
I am against all the "well he just won Blizzcon, so he has to be the best". But I actually see sOs on top. He 3-1ed Hero, Polt and Bomber and then 4-1ed Jaedong. And its not like he was a darkhorse for this tournament, he was very solid all year with a high winrate, and he also won DH Bukarest. He is also the best protoss judged by aligulac .
Well considering sOs paved the way for Dear I'd almost, almost want to put him ahead of him but Dear's multitask is pretty darn good. sOs on the other hand can take unit compositions that are so risky like we saw against Bomber and make them work (just disgusting storms connecting right in the middle of the units is quite something else). Then you have guys like Trap, Rain, Parting, MC, HerO, etc. A lot of these guys brought something else to the table so they're definitely worth mentioning.
When everything clicks? HerO. HerO is unbeatable when it's coming together for him. The reason for that is simple. HerO plays a style that should win him every game if he does everything the way he imagines it. But he also probably plays the most mechanically challenging style of protoss which is why he's so inconsistent. It's just so incredibly easy to make mistakes with his playstyle. But when he doesn't make those then there's no better protoss.
Good examples of such coming togethers for HerO: DH finals vs Taeja, GSL Ro8 vs Supernova, Quarterfinals vs Hyun at IEM Shanghai
Other than that it's hard to say. Possibly Dear, possibly sOs. I have no idea what's going on with Rain at the moment though.
On November 10 2013 22:58 Psychobabas wrote: Voting for Rain.
sOs just gimmicked his way to the finals with proxy stargates, cannon rushes and 2 base allins.
imo
I disagree. Not that he used proxy stargates and cannon rushes, but that he did so in a "gimmicky" way.
One of the interesting things about sOs this tournament, and which I suspect will really change the metagame going forward, was that he showed that Proxy Oracle is actually an extremely stable opening in PvT. Many times he would open proxy Oracle, it would be scouted and picked off very early, and he'd just shrug his shoulders, play defensively while getting fast templar tech, and pull out the win regardless. There's always been this widespread idea that proxy Oracle is a very risky opening that will either win or lose you the game, and sOs just showed definitively that it isn't nearly as risky as people think. It was funny watching the casters repeatedly baffled--they'd see the Oracle go down, think sOs was behind, and then he'd do just fine anyway.
His cannon rushing in PvZ seemed more map dependent, but he showed a similar ability to salvage games where the cannon rush didn't work out.
To my mind, saying sOs won off "gimmicks" implies he just tried cheesy tricks that worked and won him games. But many times his "tricks" didn't work, and he just played standard and won regardless. If anything, he showed that failed early aggression doesn't necessarily have to lose you the game if you're good at defense and make smart build choices.
Dude's be living in the past man. If we went back in time when KeSPA made the transition I would say Rain the guy to look out for out of the KeSPA protoss players, but there have been a lot of guys who've done quite a bit since then. Have to go by today.
On November 10 2013 23:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: When everything clicks? HerO. HerO is unbeatable when it's coming together for him. The reason for that is simple. HerO plays a style that should win him every game if he does everything the way he imagines it. But he also probably plays the most mechanically challenging style of protoss which is why he's so inconsistent. It's just so incredibly easy to make mistakes with his playstyle. But when he doesn't make those then there's no better protoss.
Good examples of such coming togethers for HerO: DH finals vs Taeja, GSL Ro8 vs Supernova, Quarterfinals vs Hyun at IEM Shanghai
Other than that it's hard to say. Possibly Dear, possibly sOs. I have no idea what's going on with Rain at the moment though.
parting is doing pretty well - he didn't manage to qualify for S3 finals since his PvZ sucks, but otherwise he's been doing great. 4-0 hero, etc. if he had qualified for S3 finals, he could have made blizzcon, and who knows what the result would have been?
On November 10 2013 23:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: When everything clicks? HerO. HerO is unbeatable when it's coming together for him. The reason for that is simple. HerO plays a style that should win him every game if he does everything the way he imagines it. But he also probably plays the most mechanically challenging style of protoss which is why he's so inconsistent. It's just so incredibly easy to make mistakes with his playstyle. But when he doesn't make those then there's no better protoss.
Good examples of such coming togethers for HerO: DH finals vs Taeja, GSL Ro8 vs Supernova, Quarterfinals vs Hyun at IEM Shanghai
Other than that it's hard to say. Possibly Dear, possibly sOs. I have no idea what's going on with Rain at the moment though.
I don't entirely disagree, except that HerO's peaks don't come quite consistently enough, and when he's off his game even a little, the whole thing just crumbles and he looks lost. Compare to Rain, sOs and Dear--even when they're losing they look stable as hell and like they always have a shot. HerO has sometimes pulled out big comebacks, but just as often he makes a too few many crucial errors while trying to keep up with his crazy multitask, exposes some massive vulnerability, and just gets rolled horribly. I love the guy, he's definitely one of my favorites, but until he can look his best with somewhat more reliability its hard for me to declare him the #1 Protoss.
On November 10 2013 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Dear > sOs > Rain > Parting > Everyone else, imo.
Which seems to be a pretty standard order, according to most other posts lol
Parting really isnt doing that flash at the moment - I'd have MC & HerO above him and maybe even Trap & Sora at LEAST equal to him, if not above.
He won WCG KR man. He, and Rain as well, simply needs to fix their habit of choking and work out a few more builds. I'd say Dear > sOs > PartinG=Trap > Sora (needs to play more games) > Rain (hasnt forgiven his OSL defeat)
On November 10 2013 23:59 mechengineer123 wrote: Dear has a much more solid and respectable style. Sos is basically a glorified cheeser.
As I said above, if you actually watch sOs' games he often attempted tricky early plays like Proxy Oracles and Cannon Rushing, but his opponents nearly always scouted them quickly and reacted properly. sOs just defendeed well, stabilized, then defeated them in straightforward games from then on. He went Proxy Oracle in practically every PvT, and in many of them the Oracle would get completely shut down, and it didn't matter sOs still won regardless.
On November 10 2013 23:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: When everything clicks? HerO. HerO is unbeatable when it's coming together for him. The reason for that is simple. HerO plays a style that should win him every game if he does everything the way he imagines it. But he also probably plays the most mechanically challenging style of protoss which is why he's so inconsistent. It's just so incredibly easy to make mistakes with his playstyle. But when he doesn't make those then there's no better protoss.
Good examples of such coming togethers for HerO: DH finals vs Taeja, GSL Ro8 vs Supernova, Quarterfinals vs Hyun at IEM Shanghai
Other than that it's hard to say. Possibly Dear, possibly sOs. I have no idea what's going on with Rain at the moment though.
On November 10 2013 23:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: When everything clicks? HerO. HerO is unbeatable when it's coming together for him. The reason for that is simple. HerO plays a style that should win him every game if he does everything the way he imagines it. But he also probably plays the most mechanically challenging style of protoss which is why he's so inconsistent. It's just so incredibly easy to make mistakes with his playstyle. But when he doesn't make those then there's no better protoss.
Good examples of such coming togethers for HerO: DH finals vs Taeja, GSL Ro8 vs Supernova, Quarterfinals vs Hyun at IEM Shanghai
Other than that it's hard to say. Possibly Dear, possibly sOs. I have no idea what's going on with Rain at the moment though.
I don't entirely disagree, except that HerO's peaks don't come quite consistently enough, and when he's off his game even a little, the whole thing just crumbles and he looks lost. Compare to Rain, sOs and Dear--even when they're losing they look stable as hell and like they always have a shot. HerO has sometimes pulled out big comebacks, but just as often he makes a too few many crucial errors while trying to keep up with his crazy multitask, exposes some massive vulnerability, and just gets rolled horribly. I love the guy, he's definitely one of my favorites, but until he can look his best with somewhat more reliability its hard for me to declare him the #1 Protoss.
I agree with this. I think HerO has the highest peak potential but it happens too rarely. It happens more often when he's on a roll - which depends heavily on his mentality. That's where the whole winter thing came from, Dreamhack Winter just happens to spark the flame and the confidence he gets from these streaks makes him transcend things.
This would be so much easier if every Protoss played in the same team league.
Infrastructure aside, it seemed like sOs got into JD's head really well and that's what contributed most to his victory. Do other Protoss players metagame their opponent this hard? Because you don't play SC professionally off of BO1's right? You try to win a tournament where (as inC said), metagame is REALLY important.
On November 11 2013 00:22 IntoTheheart wrote: This would be so much easier if every Protoss played in the same team league.
Infrastructure aside, it seemed like sOs got into JD's head really well and that's what contributed most to his victory. Do other Protoss players metagame their opponent this hard? Because you don't play SC professionally off of BO1's right? You try to win a tournament where (as inC said), metagame is REALLY important.
Yeah we really do need one team league, but even then we would want every player to meet one another constantly. When it comes to mind games. You have to give it to sHy. Dear does get more flustered then him when things aren't working out; whereas, sHy just goes on about his business and has no problem throwing curve balls based on what his opponent sees. I'd say Dear has better multitask (although sOs's storms were MINT); whereas, sHy takes bigger risks (how the bloody f does he make some of these unit compositions work where if you take out the key units the Protoss is basically fucked).. It's really hard for me to say which one I'd pick. If they were playing head to head. Dear would come out on top. It really comes down to what you value more. Ability to throw your opponent off and not get discouraged when it doesn't work or superior multitask that hits like a truck.
On November 11 2013 00:22 IntoTheheart wrote: This would be so much easier if every Protoss played in the same team league.
Infrastructure aside, it seemed like sOs got into JD's head really well and that's what contributed most to his victory. Do other Protoss players metagame their opponent this hard? Because you don't play SC professionally off of BO1's right? You try to win a tournament where (as inC said), metagame is REALLY important.
Yeah we really do need one team league, but even then we would want every player to meet one another constantly. When it comes to mind games. You have to give it to sHy. Dear does get more flustered then him when things aren't working out; whereas, sHy just goes on about his business and has no problem throwing curve balls based on what his opponent sees. I'd say Dear has better multitask (although sOs's storms were MINT); whereas, sHy takes bigger risks (how the bloody f does he make some of these unit compositions work where if you take out the key units the Protoss is basically fucked).. It's really hard for me to say which one I'd pick. If they were playing head to head. Dear would come out on top. It really comes down to what you value more. Ability to throw your opponent off and not get discouraged when it doesn't work or superior multitask that hits like a truck.
I dunno. Are we talking about overall ability to win tournaments or overall ability to win games individually? 'Cuz sOs clearly had what it took. He read his opponent and then won. I'm not discounting other pro-gamers but it looked like sOs did some solid mindgaming. HyuN vs. JD in that one DH finals looked like JD just tried some really weird... thing in the last game and then just got rolled. SD vs. JD in the other DH finals was JD making a weird choice during a base-trade situation and having a very awkward Extractor. I"m not saying that HyuN and SD didn't play well, but it didn't look like they were metagaming nearly as hard.
I would say Dear. SoS currently won, but only because he lucked out with not having to fight Maru. Jaedong and Dear both suffered the same hubris. They assumed their opponents wouldn't adapt to their previous strategies so perfectly. Dear just wins, regardless of the circumstances or whatever counterplay, and he's been doing that for months, until finally the Dong takes a series from him. Dear is the most frightening.
I have to say sOs. Not just the fact that he won Blizzcon, beating Jaedong and Dear did it, but it's the way it happened for me. Dear is the best macro Protoss and his strengths shine through most when he plays macro. But in the last game of possibly the biggest series of his career, on Akilom Wastes, notoriously good for Protoss macro play, he goes for a 2 base all-in which plays away from his biggest strengths in the first place. His mental strength failed him when he needed it most which is what separates sOs from Dear in my opinion. sOs has mastered these mental attributes necessary for success, but Dear leaves too much to be desired.
On November 11 2013 00:22 IntoTheheart wrote: This would be so much easier if every Protoss played in the same team league.
Infrastructure aside, it seemed like sOs got into JD's head really well and that's what contributed most to his victory. Do other Protoss players metagame their opponent this hard? Because you don't play SC professionally off of BO1's right? You try to win a tournament where (as inC said), metagame is REALLY important.
Yeah we really do need one team league, but even then we would want every player to meet one another constantly. When it comes to mind games. You have to give it to sHy. Dear does get more flustered then him when things aren't working out; whereas, sHy just goes on about his business and has no problem throwing curve balls based on what his opponent sees. I'd say Dear has better multitask (although sOs's storms were MINT); whereas, sHy takes bigger risks (how the bloody f does he make some of these unit compositions work where if you take out the key units the Protoss is basically fucked).. It's really hard for me to say which one I'd pick. If they were playing head to head. Dear would come out on top. It really comes down to what you value more. Ability to throw your opponent off and not get discouraged when it doesn't work or superior multitask that hits like a truck.
I dunno. Are we talking about overall ability to win tournaments or overall ability to win games individually? 'Cuz sOs clearly had what it took. He read his opponent and then won. I'm not discounting other pro-gamers but it looked like sOs did some solid mindgaming. HyuN vs. JD in that one DH finals looked like JD just tried some really weird... thing in the last game and then just got rolled. SD vs. JD in the other DH finals was JD making a weird choice during a base-trade situation and having a very awkward Extractor. I"m not saying that HyuN and SD didn't play well, but it didn't look like they were metagaming nearly as hard.
We're talking about both. It certainly helps to have a lot of tools in your kit to win an extended series (no, we're not talking about MLG extended series). Also, let's not discount the difference between reading what your opponent wants to do and pulling their leg to play in your hand. There is such a thing as forced errors and unforced errors as well.
Jaedong has a habit of making a lot of costly mistakes. Some of them are forced, but the ones I can remember in my head? Unforced. Your comments might be right on the money even though I barely remember the DH series. ;/ Jaedong's made strides though and we're starting to see a better technical shift from him by saving more larva so he can react quicker to what his opponent is doing. Something that is very important in ZvP specifically. It's funny because in BW we see the role reversal. Protoss FEing became common practice and when you do that you have to play a reactive style to what the Zerg gives you more often than not.
On November 11 2013 02:01 Cloak wrote: I would say Dear. SoS currently won, but only because he lucked out with not having to fight Maru. Jaedong and Dear both suffered the same hubris. They assumed their opponents wouldn't adapt to their previous strategies so perfectly. Dear just wins, regardless of the circumstances or whatever counterplay, and he's been doing that for months, until finally the Dong takes a series from him. Dear is the most frightening.
Maru's style is very similar to Bomber's except he has better micro (he'd be better off at picking off those templars if he was in the same situation). Dear and sOs are both very scary.
On November 11 2013 04:49 LongShot27 wrote: Providing analysis for blizzcon
Protoss players tend to make pretty good casters and analysts. ToD, Incontrol, Artosis, Grubby...hell, even MC has been showing off casting chops lately.
I'd say Dear just because he beat flash when he was on that ridiculous 13-14? winning streak in PL back in 2012 and put an end to the unbearable KT fanboy gloating. Thank you Dear.
sOs takes the cake for now. Claims that he is cheesy or subpar are just stupid. sOs showed a very strong understanding of the meta game and his opponents and played them like no one else. Just as there was the transition from the BoxeR era of RTS to iloveoov's macro centric plays sOs is showing something entirely new within the domain of SC2. sOs also has shown that his late game/standard play is not weak at all. He is one of the only, if not only, player that consistently abuses weaknesses in his opponents, MU and specific maps that no one does. The people who complain about his style are unwilling to change or look past the fact that there are more ways at approaching the game and are much like IdrA. Macro is not the only respectable approach, and some people should get their asses out of their heads. sOs has shown that he understands Protoss and the game to a degree that is hard to compare. Taking Blizzcon shows that he is not only the best Protoss, but also potentially the best player and is pioneering a new way of consistently playing with results. Haters will hate.
Gotta say Dear. His defense against multi-pronged harass is nothing short of amazing. I play zerg, and I really don't like Protoss players in general. In fact, I don't really like Dear ( no particular reason, maybe because he keeps beating my fave players). Despite my general disregard for both protoss and Dear, you have to respect the guy. Even outside his amazing results, winning WCS KR and the season finals against amazing players, his defense is simply amazing game to game. He is remarkably consistent and his one game against HerO (another protoss that I highly respect) was simply mindblowing (the one where HerO opened phoenix + stalker rush against dear's FE).
Dear is still the best one at the moment. He showed somewhat more consistancy and solid play. sOs is close to that. Other then that Rain is too predictable nowadays for the pro's.
Interesting that the consensus seems to be pretty strong for Dear, with sOs the primary second choice, and everyone else (Rain included) seen as a notch below.
On November 10 2013 21:36 Creager wrote: Is there a single professional Korean Protoss who is absolute shit at PvT right now?
An interesting point. I looked through Aligulac's top 40 protosses and their matchup ratings. Very few of them are significantly worse at PvT than both their other matchups and it's somewhat common for PvT to be their best matchup. The players I found that best answered your questions were:
--CJ herO (though he's on a sharp rise in every matchup since he did crazy well in IEM and RBBG qualifiers) --AZUBU VINES (hasn't been very relevant for a while now sadly, especially given his hilarious name) --Axiom Crank (apparently it has been his worst matchup for just about his whole career, and in HotS he's barely above 50% there)
On November 11 2013 06:13 chairmobile wrote: Gotta say Dear. His defense against multi-pronged harass is nothing short of amazing. I play zerg, and I really don't like Protoss players in general. In fact, I don't really like Dear ( no particular reason, maybe because he keeps beating my fave players). Despite my general disregard for both protoss and Dear, you have to respect the guy. Even outside his amazing results, winning WCS KR and the season finals against amazing players, his defense is simply amazing game to game. He is remarkably consistent and his one game against HerO (another protoss that I highly respect) was simply mindblowing (the one where HerO opened phoenix + stalker rush against dear's FE).
I think if you play Terran or Zerg you don't like them in general. ;o
I think it's between Dear, sOs or Rain, probably in that order. IMO, if Rain had made it to blizzcon (he would've by just being at season 3 finals instead of trap, so so close), he would've instantly became one of the favorites to win it all. I think Rain will be the protoss king in 2014
I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
These threads almost always pop up after some tournament in which a protoss won. Thing is, who is the best is subjective considering the game is still changing. There is another exp to be released and all of those listed in the OP have had some success and quantifying that(Blizzcon more than WCS KR?) is difficult. Heck, people still consider Rain as the best if we go by that poll but when you consider how well he's doing recently, I think he's nowhere near his peak when he first started playing SCII and was smacking everyone around. He almost won a GSL(lost in semis 2-3 to MVP) and won OSL 4-1 over DRG before it became WCS KR yet he wasn't at Blizzcon and isn't making the finals of WCS KR etc...
I'll bite and do a ranking. Keep in mind that I realize how subjective this is and I think most of these are SO close it is hard to call, and can change rapidly. 1. Dear 2. sOs 3. Trap 4.Rain 5. PartinG 6. Hurricane 7. Sora 8. Super 9. Avenge 10. HerO Hopefully this is at least pretty reasonable. Maybe there are others who should be up there but it is hard to rate players who don't get as many tournament matches in, such as cjherO
This is really interesting because what this discussion is about is actually more like if the best player in the world can be determined, in a single weekend no less, which is in fact exactly what blizzard is trying to do. This whole tournament was to find out the "best sc2 player of 2013" but it happened in 1 weekend.
I think the whole idea of lan tournaments is very inconclusive, and matches are much better when players are given ample time to prepare. back in bw, finals would usually be after 1-2 weeks of break after the semis. I think this is how the game got a lot more creative with their abilties. Lan situations are much much more high pressure and high stress than a planned prepared for finals. When you look at the GO scene there are usually 2-3 days break in between their games of a series. these games can be up to 2 or 3 days long as well.
If blizzard is trying to create a legitimate competition to find whomever is the best player in the world, I would say that it should probably should be more GSL style with the matches in the tournament take place over a month or two. A lot of the American ESports scene is used to lans and fast paced tournaments that take place locally. but because of the amount of travel you had to do it in 1 trip, where as in korea, all the pro gamers lived in Seoul so you could meet in the same place every week.
On November 11 2013 12:46 tl2212 wrote: This is really interesting because what this discussion is about is actually more like if the best player in the world can be determined, in a single weekend no less, which is in fact exactly what blizzard is trying to do. This whole tournament was to find out the "best sc2 player of 2013" but it happened in 1 weekend.
I think the whole idea of lan tournaments is very inconclusive, and matches are much better when players are given ample time to prepare. back in bw, finals would usually be after 1-2 weeks of break after the semis. I think this is how the game got a lot more creative with their abilties. Lan situations are much much more high pressure and high stress than a planned prepared for finals. When you look at the GO scene there are usually 2-3 days break in between their games of a series. these games can be up to 2 or 3 days long as well.
If blizzard is trying to create a legitimate competition to find whomever is the best player in the world, I would say that it should probably should be more GSL style with the matches in the tournament take place over a month or two. A lot of the American ESports scene is used to lans and fast paced tournaments that take place locally. but because of the amount of travel you had to do it in 1 trip, where as in korea, all the pro gamers lived in Seoul so you could meet in the same place every week.
I'd like to see them more spread out too but in this day and age it's next to impossible. We've living in the day of the LAN weekend tournaments and I tried to look for solutions to it when I came up with a world tour circuit but it was next to impossible not to use the Western Model when it came to a circuit. It would still be an entire season, but it would definitely be a bit more conclusive with all the players travelling and playing on location and constantly battling one another but it just isn't reasonable to keep them in one spot if we truly want to have a global circuit.
On November 11 2013 12:14 Darkhoarse wrote: I'll bite and do a ranking. Keep in mind that I realize how subjective this is and I think most of these are SO close it is hard to call, and can change rapidly. 1. Dear 2. sOs 3. Trap 4.Rain 5. PartinG 6. Hurricane 7. Sora 8. Super 9. Avenge 10. HerO Hopefully this is at least pretty reasonable. Maybe there are others who should be up there but it is hard to rate players who don't get as many tournament matches in, such as cjherO
Pretty good list, but I'd still put Rain over Trap. and I'd swap in First for Avenge.
On November 11 2013 06:13 chairmobile wrote: Gotta say Dear. His defense against multi-pronged harass is nothing short of amazing. I play zerg, and I really don't like Protoss players in general. In fact, I don't really like Dear ( no particular reason, maybe because he keeps beating my fave players). Despite my general disregard for both protoss and Dear, you have to respect the guy. Even outside his amazing results, winning WCS KR and the season finals against amazing players, his defense is simply amazing game to game. He is remarkably consistent and his one game against HerO (another protoss that I highly respect) was simply mindblowing (the one where HerO opened phoenix + stalker rush against dear's FE).
He is the only protoss who i think can beat maru. Whenever they play it is the most epic thing of all time. I personally think maru would've shredded sOs if he was in the finals
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
MC is underrated in a strange way. He's been around so long that people sort of take him for granted. But his year prior to these grand finals was damn good. Two second place finishes in WCS europe is nothing to sneeze at, and he's played some excellent games that show he's still got an incredible gamesense. He retains the trademark ability to intuit vulnerabilities that no one else can see--it is still pretty common to see MC playing some very good player and go for a big attack, and the Casters will be like "I don't think this is going to work..." and then a few forcefields later MC's opponent is GGing.
However, I do feel that the thing with MC is not so much that he's lost his ability, but that the competition has gotten much tougher. Way back in the day, tt used to be that MC's perfect forcefields, elite blink micro, and terrific engagement management were a rarity among even the Protoss of the time, and he'd win a lot of times simply by outmicroing his opponents. He got away with a lot of big risks that way. Eventually a few players like PartinG entered the scene who were on MC's level when it comes to micro, and the competition gradually better learned to adapt. But these days, it seems like more and more Protoss are appearing with truly stellar micro abilities. What once set MC apart has now become standard for true top tier Protosses like Dear or sOs or even Trap.
MC is still very capable of winning games on gamesense and sheer balls. He's still a great, great player. But I do think he's been displaced at the top among Protoss by some players who can match him in mechanics while playing overall more stable styles.
Well he should have won season 2 but went for ridiculous all in game 7. His problem is overcommitment always has been. Thats why I like Dear better. Like a better MC.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
I don't agree with this at all. Rain 10th? Below JIM?! That's just cold and disrespectful. Not mention Trap is not on your list. The sheer number of Korean protosses you overlooked for Jim is frankly Jimcredible.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
On November 11 2013 14:05 mongmong wrote: six dragons of sc2
1. Dear
2. Sos
3. Rain
4. Parting
5.Hero
6.Naniwa
By what possible standard is Naniwa considered ahead of MC?
Haha ofc MC is a better player he just didn't come to my mind when I wrote it. Naniwa was kinda easy to write because he is the only foreigner that can consistently put up a fight against koreans. Think of it as a "foreigner premium"
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
If you want to rate a player's achievements by sorting them out by the skill level of players he beat, what about Parting? cuz i got tons to say about him. He won 2 championships at the end of wings which are BWC and WCG. In BWC he made it ezpz beating foreigners left n right. The only notable player he beat in that tourney was Creator, who at that time was a pvp monster. What happened after that? People fucking hyped him as the best player of the world. What about WCG? i don't remember him beating any good koreans but a bunch of mediocore foreigners taking ez money.
Gotta go with sos, just because he defeated the absolute best players from all races to win the championship, and the kind of skills, strategy and composure he'd shown doesn't developed overnight. Even when Dear won his GSL he said himself that he received a lot of help from sos.
On November 11 2013 14:37 zengrz wrote: Gotta go with sos, just because he defeated the absolute best players from all races to win the championship, and the kind of skills, strategy and composure he'd shown doesn't developed overnight. Even when Dear won his GSL he said himself that he received a lot of help from sos.
On November 11 2013 14:37 zengrz wrote: Gotta go with sos, just because he defeated the absolute best players from all races to win the championship, and the kind of skills, strategy and composure he'd shown doesn't developed overnight. Even when Dear won his GSL he said himself that he received a lot of help from sos.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
If you want to rate a player's achievements by sorting them out by the skill level of players he beat, what about Parting? cuz i got tons to say about him. He won 2 championships at the end of wings which are BWC and WCG. In BWC he made it ezpz beating foreigners left n right. The only notable player he beat in that tourney was Creator, who at that time was a pvp monster. What happened after that? People fucking hyped him as the best player of the world. What about WCG? i don't remember him beating any good koreans but a bunch of mediocore foreigners taking ez money.
PartinG had an easy road in 2012 WCS Finals, but he qualified FOR those finals by beating tons of other strong Koreans like RorO, Curious (we may recall at the end of WoL these were two of the top Korean Zerg), HerO, and CJ_herO.
He's still great at PvP and PvT (look at his offline match records against Koreans in HotS; he's beaten INnoVation, Maru, Flash, Dear, JangBi, Flying, etc). He has an over 70% win rate in PvP in those matches and an almost 60% rate in PvT. Just his PvZ has gotten so terrible he gets knocked out by the first Zerg he plays, so I can't put him higher on my list. If we were making a just PvT or PvP list he'd be top 5 on both.
MC's match record in offline matches in HotS versus Koreans is way under 40% overall, and only close to 50% in PvT. And that's not playing against the "top" Koreans like PartinG is playing against either. I just can't see rating MC higher than PartinG.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
There is no need to be rude about it, people are entitled to their opinions and if you think differently, suggest why you think their opinion makes no sense. If you said something along the lines of "I agree with some of your list, but MC..." then gone on about how his showing a weak performance compared to, as you exampled, Rain, without passive flaming you would come off as an intelligent person.
But alas, you came back as an arrogant flamer.
On topic though, I think it's pretty undisputed that Dear and sOs are the only players that have shown consistent results to be called the top, they've both got their own play style and I think out of the two, Dear's play style relies on mechanics, but as shown if you shake him up a bit he falls apart, whilst sOs plays the boX, he gets in the opponents head and stops greedy play before it can happen, getting his own greedy advantage which he solidifies into a lead and never lets it go.
In all honesty, I think Dear has more solid play and would get further then sOs in tournaments with open brackets or finish within the day/2 days whilst sOs would get knocked out as he cannot prepare for each player, which is his strength.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
There is no need to be rude about it, people are entitled to their opinions and if you think differently, suggest why you think their opinion makes no sense. If you said something along the lines of "I agree with some of your list, but MC..." then gone on about how his showing a weak performance compared to, as you exampled, Rain, without passive flaming you would come off as an intelligent person.
But alas, you came back as an arrogant flamer.
On topic though, I think it's pretty undisputed that Dear and sOs are the only players that have shown consistent results to be called the top, they've both got their own play style and I think out of the two, Dear's play style relies on mechanics, but as shown if you shake him up a bit he falls apart, whilst sOs plays the boX, he gets in the opponents head and stops greedy play before it can happen, getting his own greedy advantage which he solidifies into a lead and never lets it go.
In all honesty, I think Dear has more solid play and would get further then sOs in tournaments with open brackets or finish within the day/2 days whilst sOs would get knocked out as he cannot prepare for each player, which is his strength.
I don't know, I made a list, he called my list a joke, I came back and called his list a joke. I didn't think that was so terrible. Sorry if I came off offensive.
Dear definitely gets the top spot in my books. He has shown NO WEAKNESS in his play ever since his GSL run. True, he might've dropped games here and there, but overall his play is rock solid. He isn't weak in a particular match-up (unlike Rain's PvP, PartinG's PvZ, or -- at a shocking 50.00% -- sOs' PvT); his game play is a combination of solid defense, smart strategy planning, devastating timing attacks, and relentless harassment. His series loss against Jaedong was in fact the Tyrant outplaying him in a nailbitingly close fashion: Dear showed top level play despite the loss.
Let's put it this way. When you examine other top Protosses you can sort of identify the weakness in their trademark styles: Rain is not aggressive enough, MC the polar opposite; HerO and PartinG's over confidence in multitasking and army control respectively has sometimes cost them games; sOs occasionally suffers from inconsistency where he fails at clutch situations. However, Dear's play has no clear weakness. He might not be as solid in defense as Rain or as cunning as sOs, but he's more balanced.
I think that people who say sOs are riding a hype train. Up until now, he got 4-0ed by Innovation in S1 and as far as I know never won anything meaningful in SC2 up until now.
I think we need to wait for the next season to see if he is really good or not. I would say that Dear is clear number 1, he is the most consistent and barely lost 3-2 to JD in this tournament.
So I would say 1. Dear 2. Rain 3. sOs Parting, First, Trap etc. (depending on the current form)
How can you win WCS and a day later people question if you're really the best at the moment? And how can you be the best earning SC2 player over several years and still get questioned?
I hate this attitude that you have to play a certain style to be considered really good. Results count, not some weird notion of morally superior 'solid' play.
On November 11 2013 15:27 dyDrawer wrote: Dear definitely gets the top spot in my books. He has shown NO WEAKNESS in his play ever since his GSL run. True, he might've dropped games here and there, but overall his play is rock solid. He isn't weak in a particular match-up (unlike Rain's PvP, PartinG's PvZ, or -- at a shocking 50.00% -- sOs' PvT); his game play is a combination of solid defense, smart strategy planning, devastating timing attacks, and relentless harassment. His series loss against Jaedong was in fact the Tyrant outplaying him in a nailbitingly close fashion: Dear showed top level play despite the loss.
Let's put it this way. When you examine other top Protosses you can sort of identify the weakness in their trademark styles: Rain is not aggressive enough, MC the polar opposite; HerO and PartinG's over confidence in multitasking and army control respectively has sometimes cost them games; sOs occasionally suffers from inconsistency where he fails at clutch situations. However, Dear's play has no clear weakness. He might not be as solid in defense as Rain or as cunning as sOs, but he's more balanced.
I don't think sOs has terrible PvT, I think a lot of people are actually praising him for that. Look at the caliber of players his had to face against, I see a lot of Innovation, Maru, Flash and Taeja and little anyone else.
I think showing he can beat Polt(75% TvP) and Bomber pretty easily shows that he might have statistic weakness down in PvT, it's nothing like that in his gameplay.
Whoever gets lucky in the most recent tournament? Despite the Msc, Protoss remains way too unstable in most MUs to win consistently and PvP contributes a ton of randomness too. Everything worked out perfectly for Dear recently (Note Naniwa's comment on him: "He reacts perfectly. Every reaction is a perfect counter.") but it remains to be seen whether that was just a lucky break or some form of innovation from him. The off-season will probably shuffle the card, though.
On the other hand, the same can be asked about T and Z. Innovation and Maru did well recently, so did Bomber and Polt. But all of them also suffer terrible defeats every now and then. Soulkey, Jaedong and Hyun probably represent Z but once again, they suffer terrible terrible defeats every now and then or, actually, quite often.
We're in a period of volatility at the moment, so it does not really make sense to call anyone the best.
On November 10 2013 16:54 Kingsky wrote: sOs he won blizzcon isnt that THE premier tournament >_>. how can people still vote for dear
Because a lot of sports based on weekend tournaments (not a season) are like this. Olympics are the best example. For a lot of sports, the olympics are THE premier event. But lots of times, the # 1 ranked player (the best) doesn't necessarily win due to things like condition that day, draws, a player getting hot. In sports like these, it is more about performing consistently.
But with Olympics everyone agrees you are the best disregarding rankings... (football, tennis exluded)
On November 11 2013 18:41 Ghanburighan wrote: Whoever gets lucky in the most recent tournament? Despite the Msc, Protoss remains way too unstable in most MUs to win consistently and PvP contributes a ton of randomness too. Everything worked out perfectly for Dear recently (Note Naniwa's comment on him: "He reacts perfectly. Every reaction is a perfect counter.") but it remains to be seen whether that was just a lucky break or some form of innovation from him. The off-season will probably shuffle the card, though.
On the other hand, the same can be asked about T and Z. Innovation and Maru did well recently, so did Bomber and Polt. But all of them also suffer terrible defeats every now and then. Soulkey, Jaedong and Hyun probably represent Z but once again, they suffer terrible terrible defeats every now and then or, actually, quite often.
We're in a period of volatility at the moment, so it does not really make sense to call anyone the best.
On November 10 2013 16:54 Kingsky wrote: sOs he won blizzcon isnt that THE premier tournament >_>. how can people still vote for dear
Because a lot of sports based on weekend tournaments (not a season) are like this. Olympics are the best example. For a lot of sports, the olympics are THE premier event. But lots of times, the # 1 ranked player (the best) doesn't necessarily win due to things like condition that day, draws, a player getting hot. In sports like these, it is more about performing consistently.
But with Olympics everyone agrees you are the best disregarding rankings... (football, tennis exluded)
Except Tennis is the most apt comparison to e-sports. An individual sport with a huge, year-round tournament circuit with a few majors and many smaller ones held under a loose organizational umbrella. And yes, winning an Olympic gold medal in Tennis is nice and impressive, but it doesn't completely overshadow everything else that happens in the sport during that year.
I'd say Dear is the best and represents a true pushing of the envelope in terms of Protoss gameplay similar to what Rain did back in WoL and what Parting/Squirtle did in PvT in WoL. Whether he'll remain "at the top" is yet to be seen, but he has definitely set a new standard for top Protoss play. After that, I'd say sOs, though I'm still a bit skeptical of his consistency and how well he can sustain such an unorthodox playstyle. But he did just win the biggest tournament of the year, so I'd be a fool not to give him at least #2 spot. For #3 onward, things get a bit more muddled. It's probably Rain/Parting/Trap, but it's so difficult to tell because they're all so good and because top level Sc2 is so cutthroat.
Personally, I still think Parting is one of the most talented Protoss players in the world. He hasn't had a huge level of success recently, but I'd still favour him for 3rd just because when he brings his A-game, he comes closest to Dear in amazing me (albeit in a different way).
SoS is #1 in my mind he seems really impressive when he plays. I also would throw Naniwa in Top 5. He beats Koreans, he was the only foreigner in Blizzcon. He is consistently making it very far in tournaments.
There is no absolute best/it changes on a weekly basis. You have a small group of very good players for each race, who are doing really well regularly. But since MC for early 2011, there was never anyone standing out so much, that you could say, this is the best!
On November 10 2013 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Dear > sOs > Rain > Parting > Everyone else, imo.
Which seems to be a pretty standard order, according to most other posts lol
Parting really isnt doing that flash at the moment - I'd have MC & HerO above him and maybe even Trap & Sora at LEAST equal to him, if not above.
PartinG is doing pretty well at the moment, qualifying for Red Bull and beating HerO 4-0 in SWL finals.
PartinG also won WCG Korea and is in Code S since the first GSL of 2012 (3 appearances in the RO8 this year).
Concerning the #1 spot, I rank Dear above sOs right now because of his win WCS Korea and WCS S3 Finale. sOs run in Blizzcon was amazing but Dear path to those 2 championship were harder imo. However, sOs is definitively the best Protoss of 2013 because of his awesome record in PL and because of his performance in WCS S1.
On November 11 2013 11:54 Yakikorosu wrote: I voted for Dear. sOs looked spectacular at Blizzcon but a large part of that was because he played with such an unorthodox approach and no one was prepared because he's been all but invisible in Seasons 2 and 3. Also he prepared really well for such a fast-paced tournament, being able to use the same surprise strategies over and over because people didn't have time to study them (like hiding expands on large maps, going proxy oracle against Terran, going cannon rush against Zerg, etc).
I would vote
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) Rain 4) HerO 5) Trap 6) NaNiwa 7) PartinG 8) First 9) MC 10) Jim
Caveat: Have not really seen San or Sora play much but they just haven't had enough results in major events yet (which is the same reason I've not seen them).
Edit: Almost forgot this, but Dear and sOs actually met in WCS KR S3, and sOs won 2-0. Not that that's crucial in the determination or anything.
MC #9 lol he was #1 in protoss money this year until two weeks ago. Still is #3 money protoss this year not to mention #1 overall all time and #1 last three years protoss. Haters gonna hate.
Rain #3? Is this a joke? Mr turtle has won what? Gives you a good nights sleep? Someone who cant even make WCS global finals in top 3 rank is ridiculous bias.
1) Dear 2) sOs 3) MC 4) HerO 5) Parting 6) Yongwa 7) duckok 8) First 9) Jim 10) rain
Money talks BS walks.
Hate to say it but your list is the joke. MC is the third best protoss in the world? He's played all year in the region with the most foreigners and fewest Koreans (and no "top" Koreans except for Mvp and MMA) and he still hasn't won a championship. When's the last time MC won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? Oh that's right. TWO YEARS AGO.
When's the last time Rain won a championship against a competition of the best Koreans? OSL near end of Wings of Liberty when Protoss was the weakest race by far. Was in the finals of OSL again not long ago.
I like MC personally and think he's a good player but the idea that he's better than HerO or PartinG or especially Rain is ridiculous and not supported by, well, anything. If you think the sole measure of a player is how much money they've won I guess you think NesTea is currently the third-best player in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
If you want to rate a player's achievements by sorting them out by the skill level of players he beat, what about Parting? cuz i got tons to say about him. He won 2 championships at the end of wings which are BWC and WCG. In BWC he made it ezpz beating foreigners left n right. The only notable player he beat in that tourney was Creator, who at that time was a pvp monster. What happened after that? People fucking hyped him as the best player of the world. What about WCG? i don't remember him beating any good koreans but a bunch of mediocore foreigners taking ez money.
On November 11 2013 14:05 mongmong wrote: six dragons of sc2
1. Dear
2. Sos
3. Rain
4. Parting
5.Hero
6.Naniwa
By what possible standard is Naniwa considered ahead of MC?
Haha ofc MC is a better player he just didn't come to my mind when I wrote it. Naniwa was kinda easy to write because he is the only foreigner that can consistently put up a fight against koreans. Think of it as a "foreigner premium"
E.g. in the aligulac rankings, players like Stardust, Squirtle, Avenge and Genius are much higher ranked than MC, whom you can't even find in the top 40. So the claim that MC is bad isn't unmotivated.
He's got that something subtle that I only see in sOs, but I think strategically he relies less on gimmicks. Not that gimmicks are a bad thing (like cannon openings vs Jaedong) but I think Dear's mid/late game are more fleshed out, and a bit better mechanically.
Dear and sOs are the best Protoss right now. Which is better is so heavily dependent on your criteria that it's easier to just say they're kinda equal overall and the better of the two depends on the day.
Aligulac says sOs is the better of the two, though!!
On November 12 2013 17:50 Lunareste wrote: Definitely going with Dear imo.
He's got that something subtle that I only see in sOs, but I think strategically he relies less on gimmicks. Not that gimmicks are a bad thing (like cannon openings vs Jaedong) but I think Dear's mid/late game are more fleshed out, and a bit better mechanically.
You know that gimmicks are actual strategies right? If anyting; they are actually more strategic then raw mechanics. I never understood why people are so against it. Remember Mvp, the most achieved player in SC2 ever? How many times did he "gimmick' his way to victory? From abusing a new map with bunkers against Nestea to 2raxing Squirtle.
On November 12 2013 17:50 Lunareste wrote: Definitely going with Dear imo.
He's got that something subtle that I only see in sOs, but I think strategically he relies less on gimmicks. Not that gimmicks are a bad thing (like cannon openings vs Jaedong) but I think Dear's mid/late game are more fleshed out, and a bit better mechanically.
You know that gimmicks are actual strategies right? If anyting; they are actually more strategic then raw mechanics. I never understood why people are so against it. Remember Mvp, the most achieved player in SC2 ever? How many times did he "gimmick' his way to victory? From abusing a new map with bunkers against Nestea to 2raxing Squirtle.
The most famous player ever, SlayerS_BoxeR, used mindgames, "cheese", and tricky/"gimmicky" plans all the time. Of course, even in his prime some people hated it. Some people want every single game to be a long macro game with tons of action throughout the game all over the map, with mechanics playing a big role in the eventual winner. Anything that deviates from that is therefore seen as bad. But, as you say, for those who have an appreciation of clever tricks and mindgames, players like sOs are fun to watch.
On November 12 2013 17:50 Lunareste wrote: Definitely going with Dear imo.
He's got that something subtle that I only see in sOs, but I think strategically he relies less on gimmicks. Not that gimmicks are a bad thing (like cannon openings vs Jaedong) but I think Dear's mid/late game are more fleshed out, and a bit better mechanically.
You know that gimmicks are actual strategies right? If anyting; they are actually more strategic then raw mechanics. I never understood why people are so against it. Remember Mvp, the most achieved player in SC2 ever? How many times did he "gimmick' his way to victory? From abusing a new map with bunkers against Nestea to 2raxing Squirtle.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Gimmicks are good to have, but if they can be countered, you lose. Notice I also said that his mid and late game are more fleshed out, and that's why I think he's better =)
On November 10 2013 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Dear > sOs > Rain > Parting > Everyone else, imo.
Which seems to be a pretty standard order, according to most other posts lol
Parting really isnt doing that flash at the moment - I'd have MC & HerO above him and maybe even Trap & Sora at LEAST equal to him, if not above.
parting is at least 2 levels above MC...
idd..MC is kinda bad tbh. Far from being top anyways.
I would say top dogs atm are Dear and sOs obviously but also Trap has been doing really good lately. Rain is good but we haven't seem much from him lately. It is bit early to say much about Sora but he really has shined in online qualifiers at least HerO is otherwise good but his pvp is really really lacking
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/a0/Dearmlg.jpg/300px-Dearmlg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/2/27/Rain-SFMLG20130316-162247.jpg/300px-Rain-SFMLG20130316-162247.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3f/SOsDHBucharest2013.jpg/300px-SOsDHBucharest2013.jpg)
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