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Increasing keypress repeat rate will increase speed of zerg's mass production, making lots of zerglings/banelings.
Keypress repeat rate: How many instances/second that keypress is sent to the computer once your key is considered "held down"
Keypress repeat delay: How much time before the key is held down and the keypress starts repeating.
You can increase keypress repeat rate and decrease keypress repeat delay beyond the limit of the normal user settings in Windows or on a Mac by
(1) doing it through a third-party program(such as Keyboard King[freeware]),
(2) or you can do other things within Windows or a Mac to edit it.
Windows: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/171326/how-can-i-increase-the-key-repeat-rate-beyond-the-oss-limit
Mac: http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20090823193018149
I think this is fair to do.
Issues
(1) Mac and Windows players shouldn't have different keypress limits. I am pretty sure there is a difference, and there should not be any.
(2) Should it okay to eg. go into the registry, or go into the "Terminal"(for Mac) to edit keypress limits, at home and at tournaments?
What do you all think?
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huh?
Edit: Ok thanks for adding more details.
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Canada16217 Posts
Not fair. Also most tournaments don't allow third party programs.
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would it break the keyboard?
Plus fast doesnt alway mean good.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I don't think this will help that much. For drones, you can't just hold d and build as much as you want. At higher levels drone production is calculated and precise. For Remaxes, at best it saves you a few milliseconds, which can be negated by unit collision, pathing, and other things.
Probably not worth it.
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On August 19 2013 13:32 lichter wrote:
I don't think this will help that much. For drones, you can't just hold d and build as much as you want. At higher levels drone production is calculated and precise. For Remaxes, at best it saves you a few milliseconds, which can be negated by unit collision, pathing, and other things.
Probably not worth it.
When you're making 60 pairs of lings, it does save you a bit of time every time you do it.
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ive tried it and when you try to type iiiiiiiitttttttt lllloooooooookkkkkkkkkkssss lllllliiiiiikkkkkeeee ttttthhhhhhhiiiiiiisssss
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I dont see why not, third party program = no but the one in windows configuration is perfectly fine.
no difference than setting the mouse acceleration thing on widows setting
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In my opinion, I believe the limits for keypress repeat delay and rate and already different for Mac and Windows. To me, it doesn't make sense for players to have different limits just because the tournament computers are different.
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so just editing the registry in windows would be ok?
hmmm pros might have to do some registry editing before each match at offline events lol
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On August 19 2013 13:36 ETisME wrote:
I dont see why not, third party program = no but the one in windows configuration is perfectly fine.
no difference than setting the mouse acceleration thing on widows setting
The grey area is going into the registry to edit it beyond the limits of the "normal" menu settings.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 19 2013 13:35 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 13:32 lichter wrote:
I don't think this will help that much. For drones, you can't just hold d and build as much as you want. At higher levels drone production is calculated and precise. For Remaxes, at best it saves you a few milliseconds, which can be negated by unit collision, pathing, and other things.
Probably not worth it. When you're making 60 pairs of lings, it does save you a bit of time every time you do it.
Yes it saves time actually producing the lings. In that case it would save a second in actual production, perhaps slightly more. But when they spawn, they will bump into each other, block each other, crowd at ramps/walls/obstacles, and "line up" orderly during the rally. These delays will increase when the lings spawn at closer intervals. Like I said, it will save you time building them but I am skeptical if it will make a difference because of the above-mentioned delays.
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On August 19 2013 13:40 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 13:35 hearters wrote:On August 19 2013 13:32 lichter wrote:
I don't think this will help that much. For drones, you can't just hold d and build as much as you want. At higher levels drone production is calculated and precise. For Remaxes, at best it saves you a few milliseconds, which can be negated by unit collision, pathing, and other things.
Probably not worth it. When you're making 60 pairs of lings, it does save you a bit of time every time you do it. Yes it saves time actually producing the lings. In that case it would save a second in actual production, perhaps slightly more. But when they spawn, they will bump into each other, block each other, crowd at ramps/walls/obstacles, and "line up" orderly during the rally. These delays will increase when the lings spawn at closer intervals. Like I said, it will save you time building them but I am skeptical if it will make a difference because of the above-mentioned delays.
morphing 30 banelings might save you 1/2 a second. 1/2 a second can be a big deal at pro-level, considering you can't press any other keys during that time.
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Doesn't this make it harder though in the early game? say you have 4 larvae and you want to make 4 lings and 2 drones, maybe you accidentally make 8 lings or all drones.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 19 2013 13:44 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 13:40 lichter wrote:On August 19 2013 13:35 hearters wrote:On August 19 2013 13:32 lichter wrote:
I don't think this will help that much. For drones, you can't just hold d and build as much as you want. At higher levels drone production is calculated and precise. For Remaxes, at best it saves you a few milliseconds, which can be negated by unit collision, pathing, and other things.
Probably not worth it. When you're making 60 pairs of lings, it does save you a bit of time every time you do it. Yes it saves time actually producing the lings. In that case it would save a second in actual production, perhaps slightly more. But when they spawn, they will bump into each other, block each other, crowd at ramps/walls/obstacles, and "line up" orderly during the rally. These delays will increase when the lings spawn at closer intervals. Like I said, it will save you time building them but I am skeptical if it will make a difference because of the above-mentioned delays. morphing 30 banelings might save you 1/2 a second. 1/2 a second can be a big deal at pro-level, considering you can't press any other keys during that time.
For banelings it could make a big difference. For units that won't experience the blocking/obstacles/walls/chokes it would be beneficial, I agree. But to sacrifice precision, especially in droning... I'm still not convinced. You could try it and tell us your findings.
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On August 19 2013 13:44 FakeDouble wrote:
Doesn't this make it harder though in the early game? say you have 4 larvae and you want to make 4 lings and 2 drones, maybe you accidentally make 8 lings or all drones.
This is affected if you lower your keypress repeat delay too much. But you can just increase the keypress repeat rate, which is different.
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Hello hearters. I too have been interested in this issue before (and i play Zerg).
There was a post about it quite some time ago in blizzard forums but they got no response from blizzard. The question obviously is, is one allowed to use a higher repeat rate and a lower repeat delay than what the OS settings allow?
I can imagine users using Linux or maybe even Mac can tweak these values in other ways than the windows settings, so just saying "lets just use what the OS allows" might not be a solution.
There is hardware out there that allows you to tweak your key repeat rate, for example the Zowie Celeritas keyboard where you can turn it up to as high as ~8 times higher than the windows control panel max value. I actually bought this keyboard and tried this very feature (but i mostly tried the 4 times higher speed setting, not the 8 times higher setting), it was nice to be able to make units that fast but at the same time i felt that the repeat delay is a bigger issue than the repeat rate. The repeat delay minimum is capped at 250 ms in windows, thats 1/4 of a second you have to wait every time you need to spam units. Waiting around 100-120 ms i feel would be optimal (but it would take some getting used to for the typical user). The higher key repeat rate also seemed to make the game bug (like a key not being registred or something like that) a few times here and there (not often, but often enough for me to notice), at least if i tried with the 8 times higher setting. So i got paranoid about it and since i felt the repat delay was the real issue anyways i found myself turning the Celeritas settings off and just using the windows control panel max value.
Keyboard King is an old free software that hasnt been updated in a long time. Its unfortunately not fully stable with many programs including SC2. You can use it in SC2, but you will find that it has consistency issues.
I should also clarify that i have never played with a higher repeat rate than the windows control panel max in a tournament or a league, just in ladder where i tried it out. However, it seems there are no restrictions on this matter from what i can see, meaning if a user wants to use a Celeritas keyboard with the repeat rate being turned up a bit in a tournament i guess there is nothing stopping that person as of right now (other than the fact that it requires a P2S port and i can imagine some tournaments not having such ports on their computers nowadays).
To sum up, after exploring some options i ended up just using the windows control panel max settings in the end after all.
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I would really like to have a higher repetition rate to use my ghosts better. the snipe is still good if you use the rapid fire key, (ill get up to 1200 apm) but if i could snipe even faster it would be better ofc
from what i have read, changing the registry doesnt work on win7 64bit?
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wow thanks babru for your input!
it would be nice if blizzard gave an official stand on this.
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Here is the thing about repeat rates.
First and foremost the 'advantage' will likely be negligible. Secondly the potential hindrance is the key double tapping, which could actually screw you up, because the game was designed with default windows settings in mind.
Past all of that aside from being a ladder hero, what's the point? Something like this won't make some random person with bronze skill suddenly GM. Even if you were say masters and this gave you a slight advantage to make it to say GM, what have you really accomplished? The moment your not on your own PC you are right back to square one.
I get why people hack, they don't care about being liked or good, they just want to troll or try to steal money in online competition.
What's the point of trying to find edges like this if they are no good outside of your house, and diminish any accomplishment they help you achieve?
If you want blizzards 'official stance' it's really simple. If you do anything out of the norm, and they decide to program the cheat detection to catch it and ban you, they can ban you. If something is a 'grey area' they will always without fail 100% say nothing. That way regardless of if they never ban, or do ban, they never said it was ok which leaves their option to ban completely open should they choose to.
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On August 19 2013 15:33 Nerski wrote:
Here is the thing about repeat rates.
First and foremost the 'advantage' will likely be negligible. Secondly the potential hindrance is the key double tapping, which could actually screw you up, because the game was designed with default windows settings in mind.
Past all of that aside from being a ladder hero, what's the point? Something like this won't make some random person with bronze skill suddenly GM. Even if you were say masters and this gave you a slight advantage to make it to say GM, what have you really accomplished? The moment your not on your own PC you are right back to square one.
I get why people hack, they don't care about being liked or good, they just want to troll or try to steal money in online competition.
What's the point of trying to find edges like this if they are no good outside of your house, and diminish any accomplishment they help you achieve?
If you want blizzards 'official stance' it's really simple. If you do anything out of the norm, and they decide to program the cheat detection to catch it and ban you, they can ban you. If something is a 'grey area' they will always without fail 100% say nothing. That way regardless of if they never ban, or do ban, they never said it was ok which leaves their option to ban completely open should they choose to.
the point is: why should it be a Grey area when macs and windows have different limits In the first place? Maybe different windows versions have different limits. And what is considered "normal" settings? Is going into the "terminal" for Mac, like command prompt for windows, considered normal or cheating? These are what I wish blizzard could put a stand on.
And as I was mentioning earlier, An extra 0.5s of paralysis when Morphing banelings for a pro-gamer can be a significant disadvantage. The difference will be at least a several seconds over a game if you talk about zergling production.
Regarding double tapping, this depends on your repeat delay, which you can adjust to what you're comfortable with and is completely independent from repeat rate...
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Vatican City State582 Posts
it's unnecessary and won't help much. JD, sarlett, soulkey don't need this to play well.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:21 dacimvrl wrote:
it's unnecessary and won't help much. JD, sarlett, soulkey don't need this to play well.
To be fair, i noticed that Soulkey seems to be using that hotkey trick for creep spread. So who the heck knows :D
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With the Zowie Celeritas you can actually set the key press repeat rate to 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x times.
But i don't think its helping too much, unless for some specific moments (making a ton of lings). Any time else you have to do precise amounts of units not just "ahh about 20ish drones"
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quick related question: is the keypress repeat rate different for different keys? I swear it takes ages to select all my idle workers using Ctrl + F1... <.<
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:35 JustPassingBy wrote:
quick related question: is the keypress repeat rate different for different keys? I swear it takes ages to select all my idle workers using Ctrl + F1... <.<
keypress repeat rate is completely irrelevant to Ctrl-F1. It is just select all idle workers function being slow.
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Wouldn't this just cause problems elsewhere rather than helping you?
Like when you actually want a small group of 12 lings and end up with 40?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:37 Nekovivie wrote:
Wouldn't this just cause problems elsewhere rather than helping you?
Like when you actually want a small group of 12 lings and end up with 40?
When you want group of 12 lings you may just press z key 6 times. Holding it down no matter the settings will not get you 12 lings anyway :D. It is more troublesome with getting drones, should you have more than needed larvae :S
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It's kind of weird how many people are in this thread just to downplay this possibility. We have people saying that it's negligible but who are any of you to decide that? I don't think it's negligible at all. I also don't think that it is really worth pointing out that it's harder to be precise if you make these changes. That's really no different than saying that it's harder to be accurate with your mouse if you increase the sensitivity. Concluding that a person will actually become significantly inaccurate because they have made any such changes is bizarre in its inaccuracy.
The problem here is how arbitrary everyone is being in casting their judgements. Since when was there a real study into whether this is negligible or not? If it's really such an undesirable or useless feature, why is it offered with some keyboards which are marketed for gaming? Just some bogus feature that 'sounds' relevant but actually isn't? Why is it that you speak authoritatively when you declare that these differences are negligible? What if for some reason you had to play SC with more or less of a delay than everyone else? Would you still say it's negligible? Does it not depend on both the user, and the precise changes that are made? Because right now all that is being said is equivalent to: "Whatever changes you make, regardless of exactly what they are, and who is using them, and whether they actually do or don't have any drawbacks - it's all negligible, because I say so."
This sweeping dismissal of /any/ changes as /all/ being negligible is very poorly thought out, and it doesn't really contribute to a conversation that could instead be focused on the possibilities and relevance of things here. Personally, I find the default difference in Mac vs PC rates to be a very compelling fact. Not only do we have people dismissing the relevance of these differences as they might be pursued as advantages, creating disadvantages for others - people are also ignoring that that this kind of imbalance already exists between users simply from being on different platforms.
Personally, I would love to lower my delay and have faster rates of repetition when my keys are understood to be 'held down'. I know it would make a big difference at my level of play. It's constant. All that time adds up. I feel like only sub GM players would actually be so hasty to dismiss the relevance of the invaluable resource that is time / actions to spare, in the game that is Starcraft.
The only reason I'm not pursuing these changes right now is because of the grey area as to whether this is allowed or not, and knowing that it would be problematic to actually edit registries when I'm out of the house. I would have to edit them back, at the very least - and that's only if an uninformed admin/computer owner even thought it was allowable for me to change those settings to begin with.
It's a grey area, but it really shouldn't be. Because differences already exist, and this is truly a kind of change to our peripherals that is lateral to other settings for our peripherals - like mouse sentivitity. I think it's simply an oversight by Blizzard, and that if it were part of the in-game menu settings, you wouldn't have a single person in this thread talking about how it's all "negligible". What a bunch of poorly considered balogna.
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at tournaments there are always windows systems.
also over 99% progamers play starcraft 2 on windows.
thus should not be a problem at all
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On August 19 2013 22:43 winthrop wrote:
at tournaments there are always windows systems.
also over 99% progamers play starcraft 2 on windows.
thus should not be a problem at all
As pointed out by others, there are keyboards which allow increased repeat rates. Should these be banned from tournaments where you can use your own keyboard?
Personally I would love to see a patch which Gives a menu option to override O/S repeat delay and sensitivity, And allow faster repeat rates and repeat delays for everyone to even the playing field. No player should be handicapped or specially advantaged Because of certain hardware, software or settings if they can do something about it.
Even if it's for LotV or even sc3, I really would like to see this change (:
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EPT
