On November 28 2012 18:45 Penev wrote: I've never realized just how lazy Stephano seems to be... He doesn't want to do GSL because he doesn't want to put in the work of researching his opponents and there isn't enough money in it. I used to love this guy, now I'm just like, meh.
I honestly think he truly believes that he is just intellectually superior to everyone else and wants to go out of his way to show how lazy he is because he feels that it makes him seem more like a "natural." I'm not saying he's not, but it's sad how far he goes out of his way to make sure people see how little effort he puts into it. What a douche. Seriously. He'll never fully realize his potential, but whatever.
I think you completely miss the point. He isn't smarter than other players. He's certainly quite gifted but I don't think he's better than TLO/Nerchio/Ret/Scarlett if you look at pure SC2 skills. He just has that great mental strenght that is required in most sports and that allows him to be almost at 100% at every tournament he plays. Idra said it, and Stephano admitting it in an interview doesn't make him a douchebag.
As far as carrer choices go, it's up to him and I don't think we can judge him on that. Him saying GSL would be a bad carrer move because he doesn't feel he can get very far is rather a display of modesty.
Besides that, he DOES practice, just less than others. You can't be a top player by playing 10 games a week.
in terms of pure SC2 skills, he is way better than TLO, a rank above Ret, I don't know much about Scarlett and Nerchio just has his own aggressive style so it's harder to judge there. TLO is innovative but it often doesn't work out especially against koreans because korean players who play standard are able to deal with weird unexpected builds. Ret's late game control is pretty poor and often plays too greedy imo. Nerchio's aggressive style falls against korean good terrans because it's not easy to play aggressive his way if he doesn't trade efficiently
And besides, Stephano is kinda the first one to refine a build that deals well with most of the toss timings after FFE.
No one ever come close to stephano's minimap awareness, his game 1 in dreamhack against STC has shown us how amazing his mini map awareness is, never missed a single drop.
I should have added that he's one of those players who managed to have a complete grasp of a certain period of the metagame. His builds have been part of his early success and yes he does have excellent map control but I don't think he's that much more skilled / talented.
What makes the difference imho is mental strengh and consistency. If you watched TLO's stream in korea he was competing no problem against top 30 GM players but his decision making can get shaken easily in big tournaments (look at his last series vs Nerchio game1). Same goes with Ret and his inconsistency despite being one of the most talented players. In his MLG interview Idra himself said that Stephano wasn't playing exceptionnaly well lately, he is just incredibly clutch in competition.
On November 29 2012 01:44 Arceus wrote: I dont see how could people compare Stephano to figures like Agassi, Ronaldinho, TMac etc just to show how much of a genius he is. These athletes played the best of their respective sport and are widely regarded as the best. Meanwhile, Stephano never played the best starcraft in the world and refused to play in the hardest league. Theres nothing to admire about his talent cuz the guy is only a minor leagues player
rofl
he has beaten players who were supposed to be the best in the world multiple times. he is the only foreigner with over 200.000 $ in prize money. the next best foreigner has not even above 100.000 $. he playes many tournaments around the world with always some of the best players in the world in it. if you play more tournaments your style can be countered more easily because more players can try to adept your style.
but for you he is only a minor league player. trololol wtf is wrong with you guys.
All he's ever done is dominate foreigners and go about 50-50 with good koreans on foreign turf. You can't compare the results of foreign tournaments to GSL and now OSL performance. He is a minor leaguer by choice.
This exactly.
You'd think that with EG shelling out loads of money for someone like Stephano.. That he would be motivated to be the best possible player and compete and win in the best possible leagues (GSL/OSL).. But he refuses to, even with how much he's making.
And whats this? He doesn't want to compete at GSL because he doesn't think he'll get that far? Ohhh cry me a river baby.
Look at Naniwa.. Did he think he would get that far in GSL? Yet Stephano continues to dodge. The guy has no motivation whatsoever.
Quite a lot of people lose their motivation (or hunger if you will) once they're comfortable. A huge EG salary and non-gaming responsibilities make things more comfortable regardless of results. So does fame/notoriety. Look at how many GSL runner-ups just disappeared? Hell, look at Fruitdealer, everyone knew he basically started coasting after the open seasons (no matter what he said in interviews). Top also admitted to just being happy with how well he did and let his condition call off (I think it was Top; it might have been another runner-ups).
Speaking of dodging the GSL compared to Naniwa... has Stephano agreed to play Naniwa yet? Or does 'stuff keep coming up'.
On November 29 2012 03:39 chenchen wrote: For those of you who'd perhaps like to read an anecdote regarding amount of practice and skill, I currently live with EGSuppy at a house near where we go to school and he, as a full time student at Berkeley who currently holds a 4.0 and is involved in multiple club activities, *barely touches the game* compared to the Koreans and top foreigners against whom he typically performs rather well.
However, his play is meticulously planned, and whenever he has time or shortly before important tournaments, he'll sit down and practice for hours straight, though still nothing compared to the *daily schedule* of Korean progamers.
To all the people raving about Stephano being a "genius" and "hardly practicing," honestly SC2 is easy enough of a game mechanically and mentally that practicing for 10+ hours a day doesn't push skills forward except maybe marginally. Nothing in SC2 approaches the mechanical virtuosity and aptitude demonstrated by Korean S class BW pros, who've mastered every facet of control, who've conditioned themselves to have multiple clocks ticking by the second in their heads, who know every single timing of almost every viable situation in and out.
Honestly, Suppy and Stephano aren't even that special. A lot of the little Korean 14-15 kids that routinely wreck the later stages of Code S, and even win silver and gold titles are *full time secondary school students* subject to Korea's rigorous secondary school class schedule. Some of these little kids like Life, Leenock, Creator, and Maru have even mentioned the impact that going to school full time have had on their practice. Yeah, little kids pick things up very quickly, and there were fewer but existent successful young BW players, and Stephano and Suppy themselves are rather young, but all of these examples just show that many pros have found success with light practice routines.
To me, Stephano is interesting because he had a lax practice routine, even at its peak, and still accomplished just as much as the very best Korean pros and at present he's not practicing at all, even prior to important tournaments, yet until very recently he's still been doing better than just about everyone in the world. I'm sure there are a lot of EU and NA pros who play even less than 3 hours a day (like Suppy if your post is to be believed), but who cares about them? They've accomplished as a group absolutely nothing of note, and anyone who brags about how little he practices when he's not winning any tournaments or accomplishing anything important is a clown. With Stephano it's forgivable because the guy shows up and wins, and is clearly usually the most talented guy in the room.
I don't know how much Creator, Life and Leenock practice habits but school, unless you're trying to graduate early, have a job or a shit load of activities and extremely difficult class load, is not that time intensive and you always have the weekends free. If you're OK with a busy schedule, going to school should not be too much of a chore and you should have tons of down time, even if you're taking school seriously. Also, Life didn't have his break out until he joined Startale and started buckling down. Until that point he was just an inconsistent fringe Code A player with lots of talent. From interviews, Creator seems very serious so I imagine his work ethic eclipses the EU / NA work ethic, which of course is in general a joke (at least when it comes to e-sports), but I'm just speculating. I have no idea what Leenock does for practice.
Also, I think SC2 does require a fair amount of practice at the very highest levels. The KESPA pros are already showing better mechanics in certain aspects of the game -- Flash's 2-2 pushes already look as good if not better than Bomber's (faster with more stuff), SoO's creep spread is the best in the game, etc. If the KESPA pros generally eclipse the ESF pros (which is happening at a reasonable clip given that they just started playing) that will be a strong argument that SC2 in fact does require a tremendous amount of practice in order to excel at it.
Korean schools are not like the American schools. In American schools you stay for 8 hours, in korean school you can stay at school far longer than 8 hours a day.
On November 29 2012 03:39 chenchen wrote: For those of you who'd perhaps like to read an anecdote regarding amount of practice and skill, I currently live with EGSuppy at a house near where we go to school and he, as a full time student at Berkeley who currently holds a 4.0 and is involved in multiple club activities, *barely touches the game* compared to the Koreans and top foreigners against whom he typically performs rather well.
However, his play is meticulously planned, and whenever he has time or shortly before important tournaments, he'll sit down and practice for hours straight, though still nothing compared to the *daily schedule* of Korean progamers.
To all the people raving about Stephano being a "genius" and "hardly practicing," honestly SC2 is easy enough of a game mechanically and mentally that practicing for 10+ hours a day doesn't push skills forward except maybe marginally. Nothing in SC2 approaches the mechanical virtuosity and aptitude demonstrated by Korean S class BW pros, who've mastered every facet of control, who've conditioned themselves to have multiple clocks ticking by the second in their heads, who know every single timing of almost every viable situation in and out.
Honestly, Suppy and Stephano aren't even that special. A lot of the little Korean 14-15 kids that routinely wreck the later stages of Code S, and even win silver and gold titles are *full time secondary school students* subject to Korea's rigorous secondary school class schedule. Some of these little kids like Life, Leenock, Creator, and Maru have even mentioned the impact that going to school full time have had on their practice. Yeah, little kids pick things up very quickly, and there were fewer but existent successful young BW players, and Stephano and Suppy themselves are rather young, but all of these examples just show that many pros have found success with light practice routines.
thats why I think the KeSPA players might push the skill ceiling to a new height. I dont know what it looks like, but players like Bogus has already shown a glimpse of next level control and timing
no matter how good a player is, randomness still exists in SC2 where a inferior player who practices 2 hours a day will have a shot against a player who practices 12 hours a day because they chose the right "strategy".
it's not randomness either when both players know (sometimes roughly) what is possible from certain play and certain races; lots of players choose to take a risk and cut corners regardless.
for a long time in the sc1 pro-scene, the average game length was under 16-20 minutes. many games were a battle of 2 base vs 2 base and finding a way to secure a third base while hurting the opponent's chances at having an expansion. some players were especially strong in certain matchups yet their overall winrate would settle just above 50%. this was considered the norm for a good player. the randomness that comes in may be the condition and mentality of the player, as both are trying to maintain a level of control within the game.
as a seperate note, you should recognize how obviously biased some maps were in the BW map-pool.
just like stephano says, foreign events are usually weekend events that happen over 2-3 days where you play several games at the venue.. only to do so again the next day.
you could say that there are always random factors present that open opportunities to lesser skilled players, but i would not describe the dedication and determination that's possible of a player as random. chance or not, you have to win as a player. nothing will ever be perfectly balanced when starcraft is involved.
On November 28 2012 21:25 Snake.69 wrote: Where is the honor...No respect for the game of the fans... Used to love him but hes a little bit too cocky and disrespectful. I wonder how EG feels about such statements when they pay him a good amount - A contract of close to six figures should have a minimum hours of practice per day required...
honor? such a feeble human emotion. he's just playing a game. he openly stated its for the money to do other things, its not really such a surprising thing. i would argue it is better to be have a more emotionally detached approach to the game.
On November 28 2012 21:25 Snake.69 wrote: Where is the honor...No respect for the game of the fans... Used to love him but hes a little bit too cocky and disrespectful. I wonder how EG feels about such statements when they pay him a good amount - A contract of close to six figures should have a minimum hours of practice per day required...
"if the zergs do a little mistake they can still come back in the game" unlike other races, do u remember Idra's quote? "zerg is no a come back race" well it wasn't because of the maps... I guess...
isn't terran the hardest race to play? "with decent apm and good micro you can make your opponent crazy with drops at multiple locations" but he also said that he's good at watching minimap, and drops doesn't work on him... Well still stuff like reverse race tournaments or fun match switching races... I still see main terran players winning over non mainly terran players... Also few/many (achieved) terran programers said that terran was harder or weaker! Nahhhhhhhh Stephano I saw you losing few times vs Demuslim switching races!!!!
"Defending is harder than attacking" I still remember Stephano saying that : if his opponent would have split A LITTLE BIT his army... he would have been able to defend his attacks Which means Stephano or Zergs? Can split their armies to defend multiple front attacks x'))
"Zerg is like 30% skill, 70% strategy" well... When you can see all what your opponent is doing you can go to the Hive strategy I guess
On November 28 2012 21:25 Snake.69 wrote: Where is the honor...No respect for the game of the fans... Used to love him but hes a little bit too cocky and disrespectful. I wonder how EG feels about such statements when they pay him a good amount - A contract of close to six figures should have a minimum hours of practice per day required...
On November 29 2012 01:44 Arceus wrote: I dont see how could people compare Stephano to figures like Agassi, Ronaldinho, TMac etc just to show how much of a genius he is. These athletes played the best of their respective sport and are widely regarded as the best. Meanwhile, Stephano never played the best starcraft in the world and refused to play in the hardest league. Theres nothing to admire about his talent cuz the guy is only a minor leagues player
rofl
he has beaten players who were supposed to be the best in the world multiple times. he is the only foreigner with over 200.000 $ in prize money. the next best foreigner has not even above 100.000 $. he playes many tournaments around the world with always some of the best players in the world in it. if you play more tournaments your style can be countered more easily because more players can try to adept your style.
but for you he is only a minor league player. trololol wtf is wrong with you guys.
All he's ever done is dominate foreigners and go about 50-50 with good koreans on foreign turf. You can't compare the results of foreign tournaments to GSL and now OSL performance. He is a minor leaguer by choice.
He isn't dodging koreans. He is a PROgamer and he does his job. It's koreans like nestea and mvp who choose not to attend foreign tournaments. Not to mention that if you listened to this interview you would realize that GSL and say MLG is a completely different tournament. Like regular chess matches and blitz. Also Seed, jjakji.
On November 29 2012 07:08 tns wrote: I'll take in note :
"if the zergs do a little mistake they can still come back in the game" unlike other races, do u remember Idra's quote? "zerg is no a come back race" well it wasn't because of the maps... I guess...
isn't terran the hardest race to play? "with decent apm and good micro you can make your opponent crazy with drops at multiple locations" but he also said that he's good at watching minimap, and drops doesn't work on him... Well still stuff like reverse race tournaments or fun match switching races... I still see main terran players winning over non mainly terran players... Also few/many (achieved) terran programers said that terran was harder or weaker! Nahhhhhhhh Stephano I saw you losing few times vs Demuslim switching races!!!!
"Defending is harder than attacking" I still remember Stephano saying that : if his opponent would have split A LITTLE BIT his army... he would have been able to defend his attacks Which means Stephano or Zergs? Can split their armies to defend multiple front attacks x'))
"Zerg is like 30% skill, 70% strategy" well... When you can see all what your opponent is doing you can go to the Hive strategy I guess
On November 29 2012 01:44 Arceus wrote: I dont see how could people compare Stephano to figures like Agassi, Ronaldinho, TMac etc just to show how much of a genius he is. These athletes played the best of their respective sport and are widely regarded as the best. Meanwhile, Stephano never played the best starcraft in the world and refused to play in the hardest league. Theres nothing to admire about his talent cuz the guy is only a minor leagues player
rofl
he has beaten players who were supposed to be the best in the world multiple times. he is the only foreigner with over 200.000 $ in prize money. the next best foreigner has not even above 100.000 $. he playes many tournaments around the world with always some of the best players in the world in it. if you play more tournaments your style can be countered more easily because more players can try to adept your style.
but for you he is only a minor league player. trololol wtf is wrong with you guys.
All he's ever done is dominate foreigners and go about 50-50 with good koreans on foreign turf. You can't compare the results of foreign tournaments to GSL and now OSL performance. He is a minor leaguer by choice.
He isn't dodging koreans. He is a PROgamer and he does his job. It's koreans like nestea and mvp who choose not to attend foreign tournaments. Not to mention that if you listened to this interview you would realize that GSL and say MLG is a completely different tournament. Like regular chess matches and blitz. Also Seed, jjakji.
You do realise that MVP already has an MLG championship, WCG Championship and IEM championship? Nestea has been to a few MLG's too.
On November 29 2012 07:08 tns wrote: I'll take in note :
"if the zergs do a little mistake they can still come back in the game" unlike other races, do u remember Idra's quote? "zerg is no a come back race" well it wasn't because of the maps... I guess...
isn't terran the hardest race to play? "with decent apm and good micro you can make your opponent crazy with drops at multiple locations" but he also said that he's good at watching minimap, and drops doesn't work on him... Well still stuff like reverse race tournaments or fun match switching races... I still see main terran players winning over non mainly terran players... Also few/many (achieved) terran programers said that terran was harder or weaker! Nahhhhhhhh Stephano I saw you losing few times vs Demuslim switching races!!!!
"Defending is harder than attacking" I still remember Stephano saying that : if his opponent would have split A LITTLE BIT his army... he would have been able to defend his attacks Which means Stephano or Zergs? Can split their armies to defend multiple front attacks x'))
"Zerg is like 30% skill, 70% strategy" well... When you can see all what your opponent is doing you can go to the Hive strategy I guess
Ayaaaaaaa!!
dude, the drops from marine king are the worst kind of harassing a player can imagen. I still remember the games, adn they were horrible to watch.
Even though he sees all the dropships when mk uses them they still do damage somehow. (or he has a few tactics he executes while stephano has to defend) etc. what foreigners can't pull of due to lack in training (skill & micro).
On November 29 2012 18:22 FuzZyLogic wrote: He never said he doesn't practice, they were only addressing that specific tourney where he didn't practice due to vacation etc..
Also, I doubt any pros have fun playing sc2.. Most ladder players don't have fun so try doing it stressed out for 8 hours a day..
I very much doubt that pros feel stressed out when practicing on ladder. Ladder anxiety is something more casual players experience, but pros certainly don't. If anything, practicing 8 hours a day, every day, is tedious but not stressful.
"Patch-zergs" existing could also mean that those players were already as good as many of the other races and suddenly storm out because of the improvement of the race. This argument should have died out many months ago. I'm pretty sure Nerchio is right about Stephano's plan too.
On November 28 2012 09:17 rogiebearassasin wrote: I'm not quiet sure how to begin this post I believe the zerg army is quite inferior in the overall scheme of things. There scouts armory has a lot.of.chinks in it,a little inside rumour dragons in the new expansion (read it a don ragu interview) who caught the latest episode of.gsl I thought the strategies of all.major players was pitiful. What do u guys think
EPT
