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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
Both my super posts just finished talking about that  Battlenet 0.2 ->> 2.0 /UMS /better community integration is the key to attracting and keeping casuals. Powerful spells are fun for casual even if you only get one off. Diluted spells are not as fun for casuals too. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On November 22 2012 01:53 Lightspeaker wrote: Do people even read what they are saying here? Two of the most classic strategy games ever: Chess and Go. Clearly one-dimensional and stale games there because you only have to "micro" one piece at a time and because you don't have to stand on your head to make the pieces do what you intend them to do. Right? Out-thinking the opponent is so overrated. I'm not trying to say that they are in any way indicative of SC2, but please stop with the constant sweeping comments about how things are this way or that way as if its some kind of universal truth. There's a lot of it going around lately and its utter garbage. Focus on SC2 because most generalised comments are just not going to work. And how many people watch pro go and pro chess compared to pro-football? BW = Football SC2 = Chess a.k.a not that fun to watch If you guys want chess then that's fine, but just realise that SC2 will die as an esport trying to become that. Note that there is still a shitload of strategy in football, so hardcore spectators can admire it, but the amateurs can still really enjoy it too without having to understand the management aspect. Analogous to BW. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
That being said, a lot of the game right now sort of hinges on spells being as easy to cast as they are, force field in particular being the easiest to point out as Protoss would never make it 10 minutes into a game without them. Changing the way spellcasting works would necessarily lead to changes in unit design and would likely lead to changes in the spells themselves, and perhaps unit movement as well. Of course, I don't have any problem with these things being addressed if the end result is a better game, but Blizzard has indicated on a number of occasions that for whatever reason, they're happy with the way the game's AI functions now. | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
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Pisko.
United States214 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
A simple point to give is that infestor is pretty much the only way zerg can reliably deal with both air and ground at any stage of the game (aside from the early game), particularly dealing with any units in the late game. The problem's cause pretty much boils down the fact hydralisks suck, and the fact zerg have only one true spellcaster. On top of that, they have a lack of useful/commonly-used special abilities compared to other races. It's a massive funnel forcing zergs to play a certain way. Falling wrote: I disagree with that part. I do think there's many diferences from brood war which may have contributed to various issues in SC2, but SC2 has very big defenders advantages with the improved siege tank mechanic, force fields, burrowed banelings, creep, easier walling. Particularly I find zerg is much less able to perform sneaky high aggression builds such as involving lurkers, sending only 4-6 mutalisks, or rushing zergling speed and flat-out killing the opponent (sounds absurd to an SC2 player, probably even those who've played BW). Even terran had great offense with vultures or cliff drop, wraith, or something else.and strong defender's advantage | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
I read many post about the idea that the new casting is more intuitive (maybe not all in those words), or that the new casting is better because it would otherwhise just restrict skills/apm that could be used better in another place. From my understanding, casting in BW works the same as blinkstalkers in sc2. So imagine a game where, if you blink, you always blink one stalker at a time. It would make blinking back significantly easier, and people wouldnt be impressed by blink micro all that much. Maybe you can consider this comparison when saying that it wouldnt be good/fun/interesting. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On November 22 2012 16:30 Deckkie wrote: I would like to add something. I read many post about the idea that the new casting is more intuitive (maybe not all in those words), or that the new casting is better because it would otherwhise just restrict skills/apm that could be used better in another place. From my understanding, casting in BW works the same as blinkstalkers in sc2. So imagine a game where, if you blink, you always blink one stalker at a time. It would make blinking back significantly easier, and people wouldnt be impressed by blink micro all that much. Maybe you can consider this comparison when saying that it wouldnt be good/fun/interesting. It requires more skill in the BW-way, thats the whole point. And if it would only blink stalkers one by one it would randomly select the blinked stalkers which would ultimately make it quite useless. If all infestors in your group would cast fungal at the enemy at once it would be a gigantic waste of energy and thus you would need to select them individually which again would increase the skill required by a huge amount. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On November 21 2012 19:30 Bagi wrote: No. Having to click more to achieve the same thing isn't what this game needs. If you want 1 click games go play on your iphone. | ||
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On November 22 2012 16:30 Deckkie wrote: I would like to add something. I read many post about the idea that the new casting is more intuitive (maybe not all in those words), or that the new casting is better because it would otherwhise just restrict skills/apm that could be used better in another place. From my understanding, casting in BW works the same as blinkstalkers in sc2. So imagine a game where, if you blink, you always blink one stalker at a time. It would make blinking back significantly easier, and people wouldnt be impressed by blink micro all that much. Maybe you can consider this comparison when saying that it wouldnt be good/fun/interesting. People in here might argue with you that why would the interface not help you blink better so you could make better strategical decision, after all, isn't what SC2 is about? I would argue that it's not. I don't want a game that rewards only thinking. I want a game that rewards thinking AND being able to put in practice what you think. Also, who says that having 4 templars selected should allow a storm cast one by one is intuitive? It's counter intuitive. I have a SELECTION of units and you don't think it's natural that they all cast TOGETHER their common ability? From this Smart Cast position we are in we could make it a Perfect Cast where each templar will know where are more marines to do the storm there, and you will only give the command to start the storm. How about that? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
I think it's a good idea to give more options for how to utilize what is given to you. If you have 2 HT's that happen to be in good formation against a bioball, you could save one click by using BW style casting. Doesn't matter for 99%+ of players. But the small number that can recognize it and save a click have that extra time to do something else. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On November 22 2012 18:52 ceaRshaf wrote: People in here might argue with you that why would the interface not help you blink better so you could make better strategical decision, after all, isn't what SC2 is about? I would argue that it's not. I don't want a game that rewards only thinking. I want a game that rewards thinking AND being able to put in practice what you think. Also, who says that having 4 templars selected should allow a storm cast one by one is intuitive? It's counter intuitive. I have a SELECTION of units and you don't think it's natural that they all cast TOGETHER their common ability? From this Smart Cast position we are in we could make it a Perfect Cast where each templar will know where are more marines to do the storm there, and you will only give the command to start the storm. How about that? On November 22 2012 16:44 Aunvilgod wrote: It requires more skill in the BW-way, thats the whole point. And if it would only blink stalkers one by one it would randomly select the blinked stalkers which would ultimately make it quite useless. If all infestors in your group would cast fungal at the enemy at once it would be a gigantic waste of energy and thus you would need to select them individually which again would increase the skill required by a huge amount. I am nut sure, but I feel misunderstood. I agree with the OP. I am trying to create awerness to people that would say that the new casting system is better may also enjoy blink stalker micro. I try to make a comparison that makes it easier to understand why the BW casting system can be considered better. I understand that it is not a perfect comparison, but I think that blink micro is most comparable to the BW casting system. And I link that to the idea that most people find blink micro some of the more fun aspect of sc2. Both while playing and while watching. | ||
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haka
United States1414 Posts
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Wertheron
France439 Posts
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Roarer
Hong Kong124 Posts
Yes, you need to cast the spell manually to benefit from it. However, you need not get a spell caster at all. E.g. a protoss can play with colossi only, without high templars. The conscious choice is made by the player, not the game designer. Spell casters did not make the game "harder". Instead, it gives player more ways to play the game. In SC2, casters allow players with better micro to shine brighter in late games. They allow a player to simply "outmicro the opponent's macro". Or, at least that is the original concept. Smart-casting makes less micro skill is required to "outmicro" someone. | ||
Waxangel
United States33713 Posts
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
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