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On November 08 2012 05:59 ReachTheSky wrote:
Whatever happened to the VVV sc2 team?
A lot of our players felt that we shouldn't put an emphasis on the type of learning environment we were seeking to create and should emulate other organizations like a Checksix or Reign. Since that model is extremely hard to get right, as management we were limited in what we could do as a community-focused organization to keep those players around. Either we compromised everything that makes vVv great, or we helped them find teams where their goals were aligned. In the end, we felt that the community aspect of vVv wasn't worth sacrificing given the risk involved. We don't begrudge these players for leaving, but wish them good luck. Not everyone is entrepreneurial-minded, and it's definitely easier for those players to join an organization that will meet their goals immediately than trying to build that support structure in vVv from the ground up.
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On November 08 2012 06:20 KoDo wrote:
I question what exactly vVv people are apsiring to be apart of. I'd be embarassed to be on a team with RuFF. Glon is good but for the most part this org has had very little impact in the sc2 pro scene since the first few months of sc2. Plus all of their threads seem full of self bumps...good luck to the players tho I don't seem to understand the organization.
I think one of the greatest things about vVv Gaming is that even if all the pro players disappeared tomorrow then our Aspire team would still be able to aspire to make SC2 the best competitive scene possible. We have a solid group of people who are passionate about the game and want to improve and do great things, and whether they achieve that or not, or stick with vVv Gaming or not, the real benefit is to the SC2 community at large.
On November 08 2012 07:36 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 06:20 KoDo wrote:
I question what exactly vVv people are apsiring to be apart of. I'd be embarassed to be on a team with RuFF. Glon is good but for the most part this org has had very little impact in the sc2 pro scene since the first few months of sc2. Plus all of their threads seem full of self bumps...good luck to the players tho I don't seem to understand the organization. The self bumps stuff is literally stuff they're required to do. It's a bit nuts, tbh. the Academy is a cool thing, but I have to agree, I generally have a negative view of vVv as a team in general.
Actually, we've revised our processes a lot over the past few months. Briefly, we've decided to offer a variety of ways for people to pursue their passions as members of vVv Gaming. The old model you are describing is no longer with us. As for this thread, the only replies from within vVv are from Aspire members and management.
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On November 08 2012 23:21 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 06:20 KoDo wrote:
I question what exactly vVv people are apsiring to be apart of. I'd be embarassed to be on a team with RuFF. Glon is good but for the most part this org has had very little impact in the sc2 pro scene since the first few months of sc2. Plus all of their threads seem full of self bumps...good luck to the players tho I don't seem to understand the organization. I think one of the greatest things about vVv Gaming is that even if all the pro players disappeared tomorrow then our Aspire team would still be able to aspire to make SC2 the best competitive scene possible. We have a solid group of people who are passionate about the game and want to improve and do great things, and whether they achieve that or not, or stick with vVv Gaming or not, the real benefit is to the SC2 community at large. Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 07:36 Zennith wrote:On November 08 2012 06:20 KoDo wrote:
I question what exactly vVv people are apsiring to be apart of. I'd be embarassed to be on a team with RuFF. Glon is good but for the most part this org has had very little impact in the sc2 pro scene since the first few months of sc2. Plus all of their threads seem full of self bumps...good luck to the players tho I don't seem to understand the organization. The self bumps stuff is literally stuff they're required to do. It's a bit nuts, tbh. the Academy is a cool thing, but I have to agree, I generally have a negative view of vVv as a team in general. Actually, we've revised our processes a lot over the past few months. Briefly, we've decided to offer a variety of ways for people to pursue their passions as members of vVv Gaming. The old model you are describing is no longer with us. As for this thread, the only replies from within vVv are from Aspire members and management.
Totally fair - I haven't checked out vVv in a while. Glad to hear that you're revised that rule, definitely a step in the right direction in my mind.
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Well, right now we get considerable freedom in... basically everything. It's mostly all up to the team captain and the opinions of the members.
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I dont know the whole OP is way too positive and overhyped. I looks like a cheap way to promote the brand (come on, if you study all GSL games of your race you are in masters in like a month or three).
Also taken from their forums (applications): "If you are looking for extra credit, here are ways you can add value beyond the above:" followed by the common social hyping their players, brand, etc.
Kinda feels like vVv is building a future market for coaching.
and guys, just read this thread on their HP: "Announcement: New Applicants check this out FIRST before Applying!" just pure gold. (eg. You spend money everyday. Spend some on vVv Gaming! Vote with your wallet!)
I really feel that NA/EU gaming clans should focus more on being good gamers than milking money from fans through streaming/coaching. Maybe there will be a time when casters dont have to hype foreign players to the max to generate any interest, cause they know they just play bad/sloppy and dont stand a chance. But i am not optimistic and looking forward to the ridiculous hyping of players playing/streaming HotS atm in future events.
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We're actually looking for coaches to train our players (myself included). So we are focusing on becoming better, and I honestly don't see any sort of milking happening now or in the future. The sole reason for such endeavors dying out is - you guessed it - lack of attention. Aspiring players have absolutely no coverage until there's a major upset or they suddenly start winning everything. Until that, people have all their attention turned to (mostly) highest-level Koreans and the best foreigners. There are actually teamleagues out there for amateur/hobby/fun/semi-serious/academy teams, but you're lucky to discover them due to professional stuff drowning them out :/
So yeah, advertising is a must, to a degree. Think of it as an experience exchange program (because that's what it is :D ). Everybody wins. I mean, a lot of players have motivation problems because it's so hard to actually break out on the scene (caster/player/writer etc.), and this raises everybody's chances just a wee bit.
Any sort of "overhype" you might detect there is probably just the choice of wording sounding like that. To be frank, most of the articles on the site sound like that, and I don't have a problem with it. Why? It's actually a cohesive organization with its own jargon, set of rules, guidelines, and, of course, requirements. If you join up as a fully-fledged member and if you're inactive, you get booted. If you're a massive troll, you get booted. I guess that's not any different from what you see in other organizations, correct? Maybe the style of writing comes across as "overly" professional or "tryhard" or w/e, but it's just a characteristic element.
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On November 10 2012 19:54 Oakwarrior wrote:
We're actually looking for coaches to train our players (myself included). So we are focusing on becoming better, and I honestly don't see any sort of milking happening now or in the future. The sole reason for such endeavors dying out is - you guessed it - lack of attention. Aspiring players have absolutely no coverage until there's a major upset or they suddenly start winning everything. Until that, people have all their attention turned to (mostly) highest-level Koreans and the best foreigners. There are actually teamleagues out there for amateur/hobby/fun/semi-serious/academy teams, but you're lucky to discover them due to professional stuff drowning them out :/
So yeah, advertising is a must, to a degree. Think of it as an experience exchange program (because that's what it is :D ). Everybody wins. I mean, a lot of players have motivation problems because it's so hard to actually break out on the scene (caster/player/writer etc.), and this raises everybody's chances just a wee bit.
But the problem is that right now, there's no reason to advertise these players, because they aren't very good. There are some great unknowns out there right now, but they're definitely not a part of this team. Focus on getting better. Advertising should come later.
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On November 10 2012 22:50 Zennith wrote:
But the problem is that right now, there's no reason to advertise these players, because they aren't very good. There are some great unknowns out there right now, but they're definitely not a part of this team. Focus on getting better. Advertising should come later.
I kind of disagree with you in the statement that this thread advertises the players. What it does try to show, is the spirit behind the team. If we tried to advertise the players, you'd see the full roster at the end, with people's twitters, etc. I was very pleased with the subtle way this was written, as it doesn't focus on the players themselves as much, rather than shows what the team is trying to do.
There's still this problem, that people expect the top players to appear out of nowhere. Many people quit, because they never get noticed, even though they become up & coming players (Attero, anyone?). Because nobody helps them to reach that; who'd expose them. Everything comes in modesty and balance in my opinion, so of course, over-exposure is bad and can be seen as attention grabbing & intrusive. Now, look at this: In real sport, you have teams training their talents, you sadly don't see that happening in eSports. In my opinion, there's still this "old guys elite club", the same faces seen everywhere, with few new ones appearing out of thin. The question is - what do we really want? Richer, more vibrant community with teams helping their talents & passionate players to raise under their banner or the way it is now; just few, mostly always the same players playing vs each other and not really caring about next generation of players, in hopes someone will follow their example?
vVv Gaming is coming into next era, when it comes to SC2, a rejuvenation so to speak, after feedback from us, feedback from the community. There will be changes, and I for sure hope for the better, especially when it comes to reaching out to the SC2 community as a whole. So don't condemn an organization, because of past mistakes & because of lack of knowledge what we are about, as it is much more difficult to try and do something, compared to just complaining how this and that was done wrong. 
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On November 11 2012 01:11 BabyToss! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 22:50 Zennith wrote:
But the problem is that right now, there's no reason to advertise these players, because they aren't very good. There are some great unknowns out there right now, but they're definitely not a part of this team. Focus on getting better. Advertising should come later. I kind of disagree with you in the statement that this thread advertises the players. What it does try to show, is the spirit behind the team. If we tried to advertise the players, you'd see the full roster at the end, with people's twitters, etc. I was very pleased with the subtle way this was written, as it doesn't focus on the players themselves as much, rather than shows what the team is trying to do. There's still this problem, that people expect the top players to appear out of nowhere. Many people quit, because they never get noticed, even though they become up & coming players (Attero, anyone?). Because nobody helps them to reach that; who'd expose them. Everything comes in modesty and balance in my opinion, so of course, over-exposure is bad and can be seen as attention grabbing & intrusive. Now, look at this: In real sport, you have teams training their talents, you sadly don't see that happening in eSports. In my opinion, there's still this "old guys elite club", the same faces seen everywhere, with few new ones appearing out of thin. The question is - what do we really want? Richer, more vibrant community with teams helping their talents & passionate players to raise under their banner or the way it is now; just few, mostly always the same players playing vs each other and not really caring about next generation of players, in hopes someone will follow their example? vVv Gaming is coming into next era, when it comes to SC2, a rejuvenation so to speak, after feedback from us, feedback from the community. There will be changes, and I for sure hope for the better, especially when it comes to reaching out to the SC2 community as a whole. So don't condemn an organization, because of past mistakes & because of lack of knowledge what we are about, as it is much more difficult to try and do something, compared to just complaining how this and that was done wrong.
Dude, I started a whole thread about development of talent and the creation of minor leagues in Starcraft. I am bobviously in favor of it. But the problem is, if you can't get to a certain level on your own, you almost certainly don't have the talent to go pro. We need to be focusing on the players who are really, really strong (attero is a great example) who don't have a way to break through. We don't need to be focusing on diamond players.
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On November 11 2012 01:20 Zennith wrote:
Dude, I started a whole thread about development of talent and the creation of minor leagues in Starcraft. I am bobviously in favor of it. But the problem is, if you can't get to a certain level on your own, you almost certainly don't have the talent to go pro. We need to be focusing on the players who are really, really strong (attero is a great example) who don't have a way to break through. We don't need to be focusing on diamond players.
And that is exactly where I think you are wrong in your mindset. A perfect example of player, who went from silver to semi-pro level is Glon. vVv took him as a silver lvl player and look where he is now. He had help from his stronger teammates. Of course, teammates can nudge you forward, but the work behind it is your own doing, that is true. But, having a solid team behind you can do wonders, no matter where you start. Sadly, from what I see, many amateur teams lose interest quick. So, it is not very easy to find that solid organization with solid teammates who'd not fall apart after mere few months.
Everyone starts somewhere. What this community needs is more positivity; not negative nancies saying that this cannot be done. It can be done. If it's done right, with the right people.
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On November 11 2012 01:36 BabyToss! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 01:20 Zennith wrote:
Dude, I started a whole thread about development of talent and the creation of minor leagues in Starcraft. I am bobviously in favor of it. But the problem is, if you can't get to a certain level on your own, you almost certainly don't have the talent to go pro. We need to be focusing on the players who are really, really strong (attero is a great example) who don't have a way to break through. We don't need to be focusing on diamond players. And that is exactly where I think you are wrong in your mindset. A perfect example of player, who went from silver to semi-pro level is Glon. vVv took him as a silver lvl player and look where he is now. He had help from his stronger teammates. Of course, teammates can nudge you forward, but the work behind it is your own doing, that is true. But, having a solid team behind you can do wonders, no matter where you start. Sadly, from what I see, many amateur teams lose interest quick. So, it is not very easy to find that solid organization with solid teammates who'd not fall apart after mere few months. Everyone starts somewhere. What this community needs is more positivity; not negative nancies saying that this cannot be done. It can be done. If it's done right, with the right people.
Am I saying it can't be done? It absolutely can - but the community needs to be focusing on the players deserving of it. Glon clearly has talent - who is to say he wouldn't have gotten there on his own? There are limited resources in the community, and they should be spent focusing on players who have already shown talent, determination, and skill.
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Wow, i didn´t heard from that at all and i always check TL, but that like a really great project!
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Out of curiosity, who is the Terran coach? Says you are looking for only Protoss and Zerg coaches.
Is the end goal to develop "professional" players or just players that can sort of compete in clan wars with other NA teams?
If the goal is to just provide a casual community for which low level players can improve in, this might be the way to go but I don't see the end result being a team that can be considered professional or that will be able to compete with even the best NA teams. I thought that was the vision of vVv at one point, has it changed?
I guess we'll find out in the next few years? GL vVv
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On November 10 2012 17:50 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I dont know the whole OP is way too positive and overhyped. I looks like a cheap way to promote the brand (come on, if you study all GSL games of your race you are in masters in like a month or three).
Also taken from their forums (applications): "If you are looking for extra credit, here are ways you can add value beyond the above:" followed by the common social hyping their players, brand, etc.
Kinda feels like vVv is building a future market for coaching.
and guys, just read this thread on their HP: "Announcement: New Applicants check this out FIRST before Applying!" just pure gold. (eg. You spend money everyday. Spend some on vVv Gaming! Vote with your wallet!)
I really feel that NA/EU gaming clans should focus more on being good gamers than milking money from fans through streaming/coaching. Maybe there will be a time when casters dont have to hype foreign players to the max to generate any interest, cause they know they just play bad/sloppy and dont stand a chance. But i am not optimistic and looking forward to the ridiculous hyping of players playing/streaming HotS atm in future events.
Let's be fair now, I'm sure there are plenty of players who watch GSL, MLG, and other major tournaments and are stuck in bronze-gold anyway. Some people just don't learn without the right environment, which we are attempting to provide.
As for being a cheap way to promote the brand, I'm not sure what your point is. Should everyone have to spend millions of dollars to enter the competitive gaming space? Aren't we looking for innovative new ways to make eSports work so we can grow this space? We are definitely trying to organize something that can work long term and provide a net benefit to the eSports scene.
As for the part you quoted about extra credit, of course we consider it positive if applicants promote our team and players and other news Why wouldn't we encourage and reinforce that? It sounds like you're just looking for reasons to dislike us.
Regarding the announcement you are misquoting, I'm having trouble finding it. Could you link me so I can provide a better explanation?
I'm also not sure how we are milking money from people through streaming/coaching? Could you provide a better explanation?
Thanks and I hope you take a closer look at what we do and see that your negative reaction is based on a series of misconceptions (as close as I can tell anyway)!
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On November 11 2012 03:08 MurDeRsc2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, who is the Terran coach? Says you are looking for only Protoss and Zerg coaches.
Is the end goal to develop "professional" players or just players that can sort of compete in clan wars with other NA teams?
If the goal is to just provide a casual community for which low level players can improve in, this might be the way to go but I don't see the end result being a team that can be considered professional or that will be able to compete with even the best NA teams. I thought that was the vision of vVv at one point, has it changed?
I guess we'll find out in the next few years? GL vVv
The terran coach right now is vVv Einherjar. The goal of the program is to set talent development in motion, helping players achieve experience and develop their talents so that they can reach their true potential. It's not expected that everyone in the programs will graduate to become pro players, but at the same time it's not expected that no one will graduate to the pro level either. Like Zennith has said, not everyone has the talent to develop themselves into a pro. However, by providing structure and organizational support for the development of potential pro players, we are putting ourselves a little bit more on the same level as Koreans, who already have this infrastructure and then some.
Also, if players like Attero and such were interested in forming a team under vVv in an Aspire-like environment, I would be all for it. From what I have seen this is not the case. We provide for the players who WANT to improve in this type of environment, and we certainly don't want to force anyone or make anyone feel like this is the only way.
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On November 11 2012 03:08 MurDeRsc2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, who is the Terran coach? Says you are looking for only Protoss and Zerg coaches.
Is the end goal to develop "professional" players or just players that can sort of compete in clan wars with other NA teams?
If the goal is to just provide a casual community for which low level players can improve in, this might be the way to go but I don't see the end result being a team that can be considered professional or that will be able to compete with even the best NA teams. I thought that was the vision of vVv at one point, has it changed?
I guess we'll find out in the next few years? GL vVv
The end goal of aspire is to develop high masters players and teach them as much as possible about getting exposure and how to pratice/train etc. Once the players are at that level it is up to them as to whether or not they want to try and pursue professional starcraft 2. From what I understand that is the goal of aspire.
The goal of vVv Starcraft 2 is to have players play for them under their banner. So as Sugarbear said if players like Attero were to come to vVv and request sponsorship or whatever.
Thanks everyone for the great response and wishes <3
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On November 10 2012 17:50 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I dont know the whole OP is way too positive and overhyped. I looks like a cheap way to promote the brand (come on, if you study all GSL games of your race you are in masters in like a month or three).
Also taken from their forums (applications): "If you are looking for extra credit, here are ways you can add value beyond the above:" followed by the common social hyping their players, brand, etc.
Kinda feels like vVv is building a future market for coaching.
and guys, just read this thread on their HP: "Announcement: New Applicants check this out FIRST before Applying!" just pure gold. (eg. You spend money everyday. Spend some on vVv Gaming! Vote with your wallet!)
I really feel that NA/EU gaming clans should focus more on being good gamers than milking money from fans through streaming/coaching. Maybe there will be a time when casters dont have to hype foreign players to the max to generate any interest, cause they know they just play bad/sloppy and dont stand a chance. But i am not optimistic and looking forward to the ridiculous hyping of players playing/streaming HotS atm in future events.
vVvGaming as a website is all about adding value, you get out of vVv what you put in. vVvGaming tries to produce members of the community who are active and do things like cast, stream, and follow/ understand Social media.
However, vVvGaming provides the option of donations for people who are simply looking for a community to be a part of, but do not have time to be a player or a streamer or a caster or a social media co-ordinator.
I agree with you that NA teams need to practice more and be better games, but everyone involved with professional sc2 knows that exposure is half the battle in becoming a professional starcraft 2 player.
Of Course we hype the brands that sponsor us?
We get a lot of applicants, thats why there's the giant announcement telling people to read first.
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Hey guys, if you ever have any questions, you can always ask on this or you can PM one of us on this and we'll try our best to get back to you as soon as we can. This Aspire program is really awesome ever since I got accepted into the program.
We are like a family like any other team I see. We are more than just a team. We are more than just friends. We are a family. We have built a relationship like one and we all care for and respect one another. We joke around, we encourage, we do things how friends and families do things.
If there were more things like this, I think the E-Sports scene as a whole would do much better. I think that this is a step in the right direction and I like that there are a few teams that do this because this is new and this is different. This can be done and I believe it will be done someday.
We just need those few people to take the initiative. If no one ever took the initiative to do anything, where do you think this world would be today? Or how do you think it would be?
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EPT
