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On September 27 2012 03:17 eleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 02:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 02:50 eleaf wrote:On September 27 2012 02:39 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote:
Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly. yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments.... I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes? What? You realize that the only Korean's that have paid their way to MLG are those who have gone through the open bracket right? The majority of the Koreans that attend have been in group play, MLG covered those costs last year with their deal with GOM and they pay for everyone in group play this year. Very few ESF players have covered their own trips. FXO usually sends two, SlayerS and TSL have sent a handful as well. U do realize that if MLG paid those trips to foreigners MLG is going to be shit today right? Beside, eSF players earn these money coz they all fight through the open bracket to the pool play. MLG invitational seeding is not directly seeded into pool play. So eSF players use their money first to earn the money from MLG, what's the problem with this? MLG have an format and they have to stick to it so they have to send money to eSF players. It's not a charity it's pure business. MLG originally seed 4 Koreans in their pool play now due to their stupid format they have about 30 koreans in the pool, and now they argue they paid too much to Koreans? For god sake they only paid 4 for free others are pure result from their business model. Dont even try to argue MLG 'paid' Koreans make esport grow. They paid because Koreans are good and can earn their pool seeds through open bracket while foreigners cant keep their standings in pool play.
What the fuck are you even saying dude? MLG has paid for the majority of trips for Koreans to attend MLG tournaments. Its a fact. It doesn't matter why. ESF players didn't just decide to go to MLG one day. MLG invited them and paid their way. And they have been doing so since.
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i think i must be in the kindergarden that is really childish and unnecessary, they should be happy to compete in such events and take like the first 20 places
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ooooooooo, more ESF vs KESPA drama
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I'm on ESF's side with this.
Some people like CosmicSpiral gave some excellent reasons.
Seems like MLG is always just trying to find some new hype to ride on.
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The day Sundance retires will be a day of celebration. In case this shit was not only his fault alone my statement is true for the rest of the MLG crew.
On September 27 2012 03:21 kixer wrote:
i think i must be in the kindergarden that is really childish and unnecessary, they should be happy to compete in such events and take like the first 20 places
What is childish is the tournament itself.
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It's hard to decide if this decision was correct or not. However, I can totally understand ESF declining due to their limited participation. I wonder if there was any negotiation behind this or if they directly decided that not participating was the only way to make their statement clear.
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Wasn't it MLG vs Kespa and not MLG vs eSF vs Kespa for a reason?
If people are fine with Kespa dying and being replaced by another trigger-happy organization then it's all cool for #ESPORTS I guess.
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On September 27 2012 03:15 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:14 aristarchus wrote:On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote:
You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to. Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that. It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it. If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate. IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared.
That was back when Liquid players were actually the very best players, and everyone was having invitational tournaments. Nony got an invite off of TSL2, Jinro/Haypro/Ret off of BW, and the same for Idra. This is a completely different circumstance. The player talent in SC2 is large enough to where you can hold a tournament and have decent competition without having to invite people, something that tournaments seem to fail to understand. MLG most egregiously.
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Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 27 2012 03:09 Salazarz wrote:
On a side note, why is eSF announcing that they won't play in this literally on the day of the matches? The details of the tournament were published quite a while ago, yet they wait until it's time to play the games, then say, 'oh changed our minds lol'.
No, there were 6 spots for non-Kespa Koreans. These spots are now taken by MC, Oz , Crank, aLive, Alicia and Puma. Notice all these players are on non-eSF teams. Basically some eSF players were invited but declined so there is speculation eSF didn't like the treatment. But we have no further information since players can decline for various reason and might not be eSF/Kespa related. But those players that did decline definitely did not pull out last minute.
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Why not all the foreign invites to the ESF players?
The only foreigners I would like to see @ MLG are Stephano and maybe Nerchio.
It is like WCS Asia having only 10 Koreans and having 10 Chinese and 9 Taiwanese.
Just making the lower rounds less entertaining.
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On September 27 2012 03:26 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:15 Dodgin wrote:On September 27 2012 03:14 aristarchus wrote:On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote:
You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to. Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that. It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it. If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate. IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared. That was back when Liquid players were actually the very best players, and everyone was having invitational tournaments. Nony got an invite off of TSL2, Jinro/Haypro/Ret off of BW, and the same for Idra. This is a completely different circumstance. The player talent in SC2 is large enough to where you can hold a tournament and have decent competition without having to invite people, something that tournaments seem to fail to understand. MLG most egregiously.
yeah the liquid players were so good that only 1, teh reigning champ advanced to the next round....
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On September 27 2012 03:27 deadmau wrote:
Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
Yes, and calling people kiddies because their opinion is different from yours if very mature...
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Tournaments can invite whoever they want I guess, but weakens the "pay for us if you want to support ESPORTS" argument if we're going to have all these fun power struggles. Shame.
On September 27 2012 03:27 deadmau wrote:
Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
Glad we're still getting this kind of bullshit now we're all playing SC2. Well done that man.
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What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
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Don't mess with eSF or they refuse to join your tournaments. Then you call KeSPA.
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MLG tournament structures and invite systems just keep getting worse and worse. Sigh.
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On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote:
I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership.
MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other.
To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'.
MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is the only guy who really understood the situation properly?
I was even surprised when i saw 8 Gom Players announced since it's called MLG x Kespa.
Not a nice move from eSF. You can say whatever you want but MLG was nice enough to give them some spots.
Next time don't fuck MLG denying the seeds u guys reserved for them and honor the agreements you have made with them so you can make another partnership with them like Kespa just did.
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On September 27 2012 03:14 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote:
You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to. Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that. It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it. If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
Of course it will be biased, I already said it. Its THEIR tournament. It is probably unfair, but again its their tournament, they can do with it what they want.
And am I surprised that ESF does not want participate? Well I said that already too. I would probably did so as well seeing someone turning his back on me when I helped his business to flourish. And as for being in a handicapped position from the very start, this would only strengthen my decision to bail out.
Fans have every right to boycott this tournament, I will wont watch it due to PPV model and it being rigged from the start.
Yet again they can do whatever they want with it, but they risk public outrage and loss of popularity and authority as a company.
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On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote:
What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
ESF players are players from ST, IM, MvP, Prime, NSH, TSL, FXO, teams that from the federation (used to have ZENEX / OGS before they disbanded / absorbed). Slayers is the only major Korean non KeSPA team that's not ESF, but they sometime act with ESF and sometime don't. Koreans on foreign teams kind of the same way but generally they side with ESF.
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EPT
