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On August 23 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:42 boxman22 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:15 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 22:01 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:59 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 21:57 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:49 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 16:45 Qwyn wrote:
No it doesn't really, b/c the lack of KeSPA players just leaves the GSL as it has always been, lol. But when they are allowed to play it's going to be fucking awesome. No, GSL has always been about featuring the best players in the world. Kespa is destroying the integrity of the GSL with this behavior. Use your brain. All Kespa has is their players, who have enormous expectations. Why the fuck would Kespa even risk losing the hype around its players if they thought they needed 1 more week or 1 more year?? Use your brain. How does that contradict what I said? You're saying Kespa not allowing it's players fucks up the GSL because some of the best players won't participate. I'm saying Kespa players aren't ready, despite kicking ass at WCS I'm sure everyone will agree the GSL players played like shit. That makes no sense at all. If they can beat them at WCS they can beat them in code A. Just glancing through day 1 of the open bracket, looking at some famous kespa player results: Wooki 0-2 고재흠 Hoejja 1-2 Harrier Flying 0-2 Brown Flash 2-0 Brown, Flash 1-2 Sniper Crazy-hydra 1-2 inori Bisu 0-2 Moon Fantasy 0-2 Pet Only 1 kespa player, Flash, was able to beat a top Code B/Code A player. It's not as though Kespa players winning against GSL players is a common thing Recent, more relevant results, prove you wrong.
Not in the slightest. None of those players played.
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Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
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On August 23 2012 22:51 MVTaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:36 Salazarz wrote:On August 23 2012 22:34 MVTaylor wrote:
Pathetic, I'm not paying OSL or any league related to KESPA a penny until they change their stance. Quite frankly I wouldn't mind if Blizzard black listed the OSL tournament and every KESPA pro gaming house until they change their mind. Finally something useful about bnet 0.2 Pathetic, you don't even know that OSL and everything KeSPA related has always been free, including their live events and even merch give-aways during finals etc, and yet you feel you know enough about the situation to spout crap like this. edit: It's so annoying reading comments by these know-it-alls who don't know anything about the ridiculous demands Blizzard had for KeSPA (lol their broadcasting fees), or the awful organisation at WCGs, or the dumb deal with GOM at the launch of SC2, but somehow are super familiar with the evil that is KeSPA, their atrocious crimes, and how KeSPA really SHOULD act. The amount of pure bandwagon hate just for the sake of hating because someone else said, 'hey lets hate on x' is really retarded. It's the number one reason I don't read forums like reddit, but it seems like TL isn't exactly much better these days... You my friend are speaking out of your arse, OGN have never bothered with an English steam for SC until next week and if you honestly think that will be free HQ and free VODs you are mental. In case you didn't know (you don't) OGN run a LoL tournament with a dedicated English stream and other that the eight pixel stream that shit ain't free. Your days of Sayle and Ooophidian free rebroadcasts are over my friend, prepare to meet the world as it actually is in 2012.
I'm sorry I don't watch LoL so I don't know (nor care) about what happens with it. As for OGN "never bothering" with English streams - do you know why was that? Oh right, because BLIZZARD FUCKED WITH KESPA AT EVERY TURN DURING BW ERA. They had basically no presence or interest in the foreign scene because BLIZZARD NEVER EVER cooperated with KeSPA. And even though OGN haven't provided English streams for SC in the past, they were happy enough to allow restreams and free VODs both for Koreans and foreigners, also every live event hosted by KeSPA in Korea was free admission.
As for the whole thing about KeSPA 'messing' with GOM during GOM Classic seasons etc, ugh, it was never as clear cut as some people tend to believe... During that time, several teams literally forbid their players to play in OSL + MSL at the same time, plenty of players have stated that their individual league runs were cut short because they were too busy preparing for PL to allow them show their full potential in individuals, etc. KeSPA teams have always prepared MUCH more seriously for every game they play - hence the quality of their games. It's not like KeSPA went and said, "Okay guys, GOM league is now illegal, get out" - the schedule was way too packed for the style of preparation that KeSPA players have, and no one was interested in a league that advertises itself as a major event if only a handful of B-teamers will play in it.
Whether you think KeSPA teams limiting themselves like that is a bad thing or not, is really irrelevant. It's how they do it, it's why they are so good when they do play; demanding them to adjust that because YOU want it is fucking stupid.
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Right now is a brief window of opportunity GOM actually have some power. Since their player is still superior overall. If GOM let KeSPA player catch up then it would be too late to do anything. So some ultra aggressive move by GOM soon would not surprise me.
Dumb idea but if no KeSPA player advance to OSL Ro8, GOM can convince all their player to pull out and form their own "GOM Arena" event with the same players, leave OSL running a court with no king.
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It's actually mind boggling how far people are going to defend kespa as some sort of good guy, anyone remember leta getting dq'd?
Having said that people jumping the gun before any real information has been released is equally questionable.
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On August 23 2012 23:06 nokz88 wrote:
Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
Kespa is a Korean organization. Korean means good. Therefore Kespa is a good organization.
It's koreophilia.
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On August 23 2012 22:58 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:55 EAGER-beaver wrote:
Thanks for the translation Weirdkid. This is a real shame, I hope Kespa isn't trying monopolize the scene again like they did to gom in BW by pulling all of their players out. Even if not all the kespa players are ready, from wcs results, there are enough of them to compete in the generous seeds presented by gom.
Can't the kespa teams quit kespa, play in gom and still compete in the osl, afterall, gom players can play in the osl, why wouldn't ex kespa players be allowed? Why would they want to? Kespa: better living conditions, better pay, more prestigious leagues, far more stable career GOM: team conditions ranging from okay to awful, poor to no salaries, one domestically unpopular league I don't think you'll find many if any players at all that care enough about GSL to give up on all it means to be on a kespa team
That won't extend to the players who are paid little to nothing. If KeSPA is going to be isolantionist about everything I think a lot of those players will look to the International scene.
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On August 23 2012 23:01 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:00 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 22:57 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully Blizzard puts on the daddy pants and saids "if you dont let your players participate were pulling the plug on letting you broadcast SC2" That would be retarded and it would accomplish nothing. The players would just come out and say that it's their own decision not to play in GSL then and you'd have the exact same situation, except with Blizzard having acted like dicks. Player and coach already said it was not their decision. Too late for that boat.
And I'll bet you anything that that statement would be revised if GOM and Blizzard decided to push things.
The players and coaches wanted to be positive about playing in GSL and against the GSL opposition, you're reading too much into bland media statements. If the teams don't want their players to play, the players won't play.
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On August 23 2012 23:08 bo1b wrote:
It's actually mind boggling how far people are going to defend kespa as some sort of good guy, anyone remember leta getting dq'd?
Having said that people jumping the gun before any real information has been released is equally questionable.
Yeah, a couple of bad referee decisions in 10 years of tournaments (that's ten friggin' years for you) means the entire association is vile and rotten to the core. Clearly.
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On August 23 2012 23:06 nokz88 wrote:
Somehow, someway KeSPA gets more support and less flak in TeamLiquid, a foreign forum, than in Korea itself. Go figure.
It doesn't get shadier than this folks. Why are some of you defending this asshole move?
What's the reaction in the Korean community about this?
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I will still watch GSL regularly because it truly is the biggest bestest eSports tournament in the world
... dissapointed in KESPA, but wasn't really expecting much by means of this anyways [esp. after the 8 seeds to MLG fell through]
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On August 23 2012 23:09 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:01 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 23:00 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 22:57 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully Blizzard puts on the daddy pants and saids "if you dont let your players participate were pulling the plug on letting you broadcast SC2" That would be retarded and it would accomplish nothing. The players would just come out and say that it's their own decision not to play in GSL then and you'd have the exact same situation, except with Blizzard having acted like dicks. Player and coach already said it was not their decision. Too late for that boat. And I'll bet you anything that that statement would be revised if GOM and Blizzard decided to push things. The players and coaches wanted to be positive about playing in GSL and against the GSL opposition, you're reading too much into this. If the teams don't want their players to play, the players won't play.
Yeah, that's true, but they can't claim that player and coach made the decision when contrary already been stated. Well, they can, but they would look REALLY shady and foolish.
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On August 23 2012 23:04 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On August 23 2012 22:42 boxman22 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:15 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 22:01 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:59 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 21:57 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:49 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 16:45 Qwyn wrote:
No it doesn't really, b/c the lack of KeSPA players just leaves the GSL as it has always been, lol. But when they are allowed to play it's going to be fucking awesome. No, GSL has always been about featuring the best players in the world. Kespa is destroying the integrity of the GSL with this behavior. Use your brain. All Kespa has is their players, who have enormous expectations. Why the fuck would Kespa even risk losing the hype around its players if they thought they needed 1 more week or 1 more year?? Use your brain. How does that contradict what I said? You're saying Kespa not allowing it's players fucks up the GSL because some of the best players won't participate. I'm saying Kespa players aren't ready, despite kicking ass at WCS I'm sure everyone will agree the GSL players played like shit. That makes no sense at all. If they can beat them at WCS they can beat them in code A. Just glancing through day 1 of the open bracket, looking at some famous kespa player results: Wooki 0-2 고재흠 Hoejja 1-2 Harrier Flying 0-2 Brown Flash 2-0 Brown, Flash 1-2 Sniper Crazy-hydra 1-2 inori Bisu 0-2 Moon Fantasy 0-2 Pet Only 1 kespa player, Flash, was able to beat a top Code B/Code A player. It's not as though Kespa players winning against GSL players is a common thing Recent, more relevant results, prove you wrong. Not in the slightest. None of those players played.
Then maybe you should revise your statement and not say "kespa players aren't winning with regularity" when most KeSPA players are in GM league, beating notable GSL players, winning games in the ACTUAL WCS TOURNAMENT that wasn't played a month ago like thos statistics, and overall are regarded as equals by the GSL players.
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Now that I think about it more perhaps this could backfire on them. There's so much money in the foreign scene now and it seems like there's no desire on KeSPA's part to give it's players a piece of that pie except for maybe MLG. Moreover, there's a ton of new Korean players coming into the SC2 scene and unless KeSPA starts lifting some of their restrictions it might mean less interest from these new players in joining a KeSPA team, new players who could turn out to be stars in the future.
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On August 23 2012 22:53 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:36 Salazarz wrote:On August 23 2012 22:34 MVTaylor wrote:
Pathetic, I'm not paying OSL or any league related to KESPA a penny until they change their stance. Quite frankly I wouldn't mind if Blizzard black listed the OSL tournament and every KESPA pro gaming house until they change their mind. Finally something useful about bnet 0.2 Pathetic, you don't even know that OSL and everything KeSPA related has always been free, including their live events and even merch give-aways during finals etc, and yet you feel you know enough about the situation to spout crap like this. edit: It's so annoying reading comments by these know-it-alls who don't know anything about the ridiculous demands Blizzard had for KeSPA (lol their broadcasting fees), or the awful organisation at WCGs, or the dumb deal with GOM at the launch of SC2, but somehow are super familiar with the evil that is KeSPA, their atrocious crimes, and how KeSPA really SHOULD act. The amount of pure bandwagon hate just for the sake of hating because someone else said, 'hey lets hate on x' is really retarded. It's the number one reason I don't read forums like reddit, but it seems like TL isn't exactly much better these days... I have to agree with this guy a little bit. Kespa never charged American and non-European viewers to watch their content, while letting Koreans view for free to build their brand (like GOM) so your never going to "have to pay them a penny." Remember when GOM was trying to charge even more then they are now when they first starting producing content? Remember when after ten years of not giving a shit about broodwar Blizzard claimed to care just so they could get ahead of Kespa in the fight for viewers in Korea. I really don't know why people hate Kespa so much, but then put Blizzard and especially GOM on a pedestal. Obviusly Kespa has its faults, but there are two sides to every story. Yeah it sucks for the players and the viewers, but I think at sc2's current stage competition is a good thing and will result in the best product.
KeSPA would have monetized if they could. They are a company and a company needs to make profit. The only reason I can think of for a company to give free content is that there is no gain, only the glimmer of hope that the free content will grow a bigger audience (which they can then charge for content).
We've all seen how some of the re-streams were taken down at the OSL final. I think we'll be paying for content soon enough.
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On August 23 2012 22:48 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:47 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 22:41 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:40 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 22:36 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:35 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 22:16 Rustug wrote:On August 23 2012 21:57 floor exercise wrote:On August 23 2012 21:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 23 2012 21:49 monkybone wrote:
[quote]
No, GSL has always been about featuring the best players in the world. Kespa is destroying the integrity of the GSL with this behavior. true, but really I need to know why KeSPA declined its teams from participating I'm sure its not something unreasonable, They've pulled crazy shit before but this is completely random. It all comes down to money. Kespa players are hot commodities, they would certainly increase viewership of gom domestically and around the world. That means more money for Gom, and for what, using another organisations players that they have built and supported for a decade. It's easy for Gom to appeal to the fans and cry victim like this, but we really don't know the arrangement or if Kespa is expected to just hand over their stars, which is their only real valuable asset, for nothing Domestically yes, internationally it's already doing pretty good. This is a domestic "turf war", can't tell who's the good guy and who is the bad guy. But IMO if Blizzard doesn't step in quick, it will be bad for SC in Korea as a whole. Yes, Blizzard, the company that won't even make LAN mode for tournaments is going to try to step in? I think they would be out of their depths. Yes, they created the game and has the license for it, but they don't know the e-sports scene in Korea. Actually, the lack of LAN is why they could step in. Imagine OSL finals, Flash vs MVP say. After the 1st game, Flash's account was suddenly banned. Really? You think Blizzard would risk the entire Korean market by pulling a stunt like that? Look, some of us hardcore SC2 fans might get upset because Kespa players won't be playing in GSL this season. But let's face it, we are a small minority. Blizzard would be stupid to try to step in like this. I would think they would want to step in, though not in the manner I described. They don't want KeSPA to get too much power, since it takes away power from them. They don't have many options anyway. The two things they can do is come up with some slap-on-the-wrist PR statement or deny Kespa the right to run SC2 tournaments. Nobody would care about the former, and they would be digging their own grave as far as Korean market is concerned with the latter. It's mind boggling that GOM (and possibly Blizzard) basically want to pressure the teams to have players compete in their tournaments. Well it's not mind boggling, it's understandable from a business / power play perspective, but that is much more of a dick move than Kespa teams simply deciding that they can't fit another individual league into their schedule at this point in time. Then don't let GSL players participate in OSL. If it goes both ways, I am perfectly happy.
Fuck no. I want to see MC and DRG playing flash and the other Kespa players in the OSL. Don't punish the fans for kespas behavior.
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On August 23 2012 23:11 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:04 boxman22 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On August 23 2012 22:42 boxman22 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:15 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 22:01 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:59 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 21:57 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2012 21:49 monkybone wrote:On August 23 2012 16:45 Qwyn wrote:
No it doesn't really, b/c the lack of KeSPA players just leaves the GSL as it has always been, lol. But when they are allowed to play it's going to be fucking awesome. No, GSL has always been about featuring the best players in the world. Kespa is destroying the integrity of the GSL with this behavior. Use your brain. All Kespa has is their players, who have enormous expectations. Why the fuck would Kespa even risk losing the hype around its players if they thought they needed 1 more week or 1 more year?? Use your brain. How does that contradict what I said? You're saying Kespa not allowing it's players fucks up the GSL because some of the best players won't participate. I'm saying Kespa players aren't ready, despite kicking ass at WCS I'm sure everyone will agree the GSL players played like shit. That makes no sense at all. If they can beat them at WCS they can beat them in code A. Just glancing through day 1 of the open bracket, looking at some famous kespa player results: Wooki 0-2 고재흠 Hoejja 1-2 Harrier Flying 0-2 Brown Flash 2-0 Brown, Flash 1-2 Sniper Crazy-hydra 1-2 inori Bisu 0-2 Moon Fantasy 0-2 Pet Only 1 kespa player, Flash, was able to beat a top Code B/Code A player. It's not as though Kespa players winning against GSL players is a common thing Recent, more relevant results, prove you wrong. Not in the slightest. None of those players played. Then maybe you should revise your statement and not say "kespa players aren't winning with regularity" when most KeSPA players are in GM league, beating notable GSL players, winning games in the ACTUAL WCS TOURNAMENT that wasn't played a month ago like thos statistics, and overall are regarded as equals by the GSL players.
He meant TOP KeSPA player (the player actually have fame in Korea and are important as power play chips) are not transitioning as well. Lower level player can do as good as they do in WCS but it doesn't translate into bargain power for KeSPA, because there is no difference between them and people who already in GOM.
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On August 23 2012 23:04 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:47 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 22:41 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:40 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 22:36 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 22:35 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 22:16 Rustug wrote:On August 23 2012 21:57 floor exercise wrote:On August 23 2012 21:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 23 2012 21:49 monkybone wrote:
[quote]
No, GSL has always been about featuring the best players in the world. Kespa is destroying the integrity of the GSL with this behavior. true, but really I need to know why KeSPA declined its teams from participating I'm sure its not something unreasonable, They've pulled crazy shit before but this is completely random. It all comes down to money. Kespa players are hot commodities, they would certainly increase viewership of gom domestically and around the world. That means more money for Gom, and for what, using another organisations players that they have built and supported for a decade. It's easy for Gom to appeal to the fans and cry victim like this, but we really don't know the arrangement or if Kespa is expected to just hand over their stars, which is their only real valuable asset, for nothing Domestically yes, internationally it's already doing pretty good. This is a domestic "turf war", can't tell who's the good guy and who is the bad guy. But IMO if Blizzard doesn't step in quick, it will be bad for SC in Korea as a whole. Yes, Blizzard, the company that won't even make LAN mode for tournaments is going to try to step in? I think they would be out of their depths. Yes, they created the game and has the license for it, but they don't know the e-sports scene in Korea. Actually, the lack of LAN is why they could step in. Imagine OSL finals, Flash vs MVP say. After the 1st game, Flash's account was suddenly banned. Really? You think Blizzard would risk the entire Korean market by pulling a stunt like that? Look, some of us hardcore SC2 fans might get upset because Kespa players won't be playing in GSL this season. But let's face it, we are a small minority. Blizzard would be stupid to try to step in like this. I would think they would want to step in, though not in the manner I described. They don't want KeSPA to get too much power, since it takes away power from them. They don't have many options anyway. The two things they can do is come up with some slap-on-the-wrist PR statement or deny Kespa the right to run SC2 tournaments. Nobody would care about the former, and they would be digging their own grave as far as Korean market is concerned with the latter. It's mind boggling that GOM (and possibly Blizzard) basically want to pressure the teams to have players compete in their tournaments. Well it's not mind boggling, it's understandable from a business / power play perspective, but that is much more of a dick move than Kespa teams simply deciding that they can't fit another individual league into their schedule at this point in time. "can't fit it into their schedule" is a PR way of saying "we're going to start our own league and keep the current players to ourselves".
Why would you think this? It's pretty obvious to me that they can't actually fit Code A qualifiers and Code A into their schedule right now, in the middle of dual-game Proleague + OSL. They're already involved in WCS and WCG too.
And obviously they're going to keep the players to "themselves", they employ all the players.
On August 23 2012 23:10 ragz_gt wrote:
Yeah, that's true, but they can't claim that player and coach made the decision when contrary already been stated. Well, they can, but they would look REALLY shady and foolish.
To be honest, they've already gone through a decade of looking shady and foolish.
But they will stick together (and the players will too), so there's really nothing to be gained from escalating shit and trying to force them to be involved with GSL at all costs, when it's obviously inconvenient for them at this time.
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This is really obvious (and was discussed on iTg). KeSPA is a novelty and only remains a novelty if it is "Kespa players". When you start to assimilate they begin to lose the "heroism" and "novelty" right off the bat and that is why the oct to oct lock was signed so they wouldnt do this. Putting KeSPA players into the fire, where Artosis has said it it even harder than Code S multiple times, is actually going to hurt KeSPA and its players...
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EPT
