On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
I strongly agree with this. BW is fucking hard, something that can be done with 60 apm in sc2 can require like 300 apm in BW, and even then it may not look as smooth as in sc2 because of things like the massively improved pathing.
Using this video as an example:
That's like 20 tanks (probably more) dying in a matter of seconds because storm is so ridiculously strong, but that's still not imbalanced because it is stupidly fucking hard to storm like that, I couldn't even explain how hard it is to someone who hasn't played BW and doesn't know how hard it is without the need for an explanation.
So, if you want the game to be more like BW you're going to have to put more restrictions on players, like in BW, you'd have to reduce the unit selection limit to maybe 24 rather than 255, remove smartcasting, and such, which is something that will never happen.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
What you just said the OP says and what I think are completely different things. In fact, they're almost opposites.
I'm saying BW requires more APM and speed to play than Sc2, and therefore Sc2 play seems flat, and the deathball is caused since now you 1a instead of 1a2a3a and now you slap down storms just by clicking instead of using amazing hand precision to individually select tons of templar. To hit good execution in Sc2 in a huge fight is pretty easy.
He's saying stuff dies too fast, and in Sc2 you need tons of APM to play optimally compared to BW, and the game needs to be slowed down.
That's like, literally not what I'm saying at all. We are in disagreement. Entirely.
On July 12 2012 18:25 Apolo wrote: How many times have we watched a 15 min macro game where everything is decided by a battle of 2 deathballs that lasts 10 seconds with one of the players being helpess to comeback?
excluding the PL which is full of players who are pretty much brand new to the game, i haven't seen anything like this since... about November of last year. im sure you an cherry pick some games that were like it, but the vast majority of games i watch now (especially in Code S) are full of engagements, positioning, and some of them are non-stop battling for like 20 minutes, with multiple armies being destroyed multiple times, huge comebacks, lot's of harassment, etc.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
No? I'm saying that our bodies are not able to respond quickly enough to micro perfectly against the high dps/high focus numbers in lategame armies.
The deathball is not only a problem of SC2 mechancs, but also a maps that are made by community, maps that are too secure, that have a lot of chokes that allow to defend the gready play way too easy, and punishing gready play too hard.
Really agree with that point. In addition to the main base choke, many maps now have a secondary choke or ramp at their natural. In addition, many maps are big. It gives defenders a large advantage and makes early pressure difficult. This makes games tend to be more longer and macro oriented and easier to get to deathball.
I don't mind having long macro games and I also enjoy early all in pressures. But my fear for these longer games is that not much happens in game for a long period of time. Makes the games not the exciting to watch.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
No? I'm saying that our bodies are not able to respond quickly enough to micro perfectly against the high dps/high focus numbers in lategame armies.
Oh, I think I misread you. I thought you were saying that the underlying problem with Sc2 is that we are limited by having physical bodies... so we need to transcend and become beings of pure intellect if we want to play Sc2 at a higher level.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
No? I'm saying that our bodies are not able to respond quickly enough to micro perfectly against the high dps/high focus numbers in lategame armies.
Oh, I think I misread you. I thought you were saying that the underlying problem with Sc2 is that we are limited by having physical bodies... so we need to transcend and become beings of pure intellect if we want to play Sc2 at a higher level.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
What you just said the OP says and what I think are completely different things. In fact, they're almost opposites.
I'm saying BW requires more APM and speed to play than Sc2, and therefore Sc2 play seems flat, and the deathball is caused since now you 1a instead of 1a2a3a and now you slap down storms just by clicking instead of using amazing hand precision to individually select tons of templar. To hit good execution in Sc2 in a huge fight is pretty easy.
He's saying stuff dies too fast, and in Sc2 you need tons of APM to play optimally compared to BW, and the game needs to be slowed down.
That's like, literally not what I'm saying at all. We are in disagreement. Entirely.
It's the same thing, except in a "lower" magnitude, as you might call it. In this post you're saying that BW requires more APM to play, which is true, but the thing is, if players actually could play at an exponentially higher APM, they could play SC2 almost the same way as the do BW, because they could reduce deathball and AOE DPS to a point where it is no longer the most effective way to deploy your armies.
It's a thing of proportions. Basically, what the OP is saying, is that if the game was slower, you would WANT to distribute your armies in groups of 12 or even less (while smartcasting would probably be just as powerful though), because it would make your armies more effective. BW 1a2a3a4a would be MORE effective than 1a'ing your entire armies, thus faster players who could micro at this level would be rewarded, like in BW. Not so sure about spells though. Like I said, smartcast would probably be just as powerful, although if players could micro like the OP says, damage would be severely reduced, at least when talking about storms.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
No? I'm saying that our bodies are not able to respond quickly enough to micro perfectly against the high dps/high focus numbers in lategame armies.
Oh, I think I misread you. I thought you were saying that the underlying problem with Sc2 is that we are limited by having physical bodies... so we need to transcend and become beings of pure intellect if we want to play Sc2 at a higher level.
Haha ok, now that i read the quote again i get what you mean Not the physical limits of our bodies, but the limits of our physical bodies would be the better way to put it.
On July 12 2012 23:55 naastyOne wrote: I think a lot of that, if not most is intentional.
SC2 was build around 10-20 minutes per match in mind, not 40-60 like BW. Thus, it is faster in most ways.
Again, to stress it, is is not a bug, it is a feature, that was intended.
I think there's something to that. I remember some of Blizzards early explanations of some of their changes/ features were about speeding up the game.
Things like starting with 6 workers rather than 4 workers were to get the players out the early game which had they felt were rather boring/ lot's of dead time. (I guess Bisu probe micro and zealot, marine, zergling shenangins didn't count.) Same with the macro mechanics. Partially it was to create an "APM sink" and partially it was to speed up the game to get to the so-called more interesting parts.
I've also always felt that the faster DPS and faster battle deaths was due to an over-reaction due to complaints from Warcraft 3. Post-Warcraft 3 they heard loud and clear that units were far too beefy so they made "terrible, terrible damage" only they went too far.
I also seem to recall that they wanted games to be around 20 minutes on average, but I'd have to find some very old beta era interviews.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.
The issue isn't how quickly armies destroy each other, but how easily they do so, and the amount of apm and control it takes to get an army to actually do something.
Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.
No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.
The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.
I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.
BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.
I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.
And that's okay.
They're different games.
OP is saying the exact same thing, but from a different angle. He's saying that all these things you say make BW a different game from SC2 translate into one concept few people talk about, which is fundamentally time. The higher DPS units, the UI changes, the AI changes, all add up to the concept that players are unable to keep up with the insane speed SC2 has in comparison to BW.
He's basically saying that physical limits of our human bodies make it so it's practically impossible to overcome the speed of the game with micro alone, which makes it so the most effective way of using your units is the so called deathball. I've always thought that players will eventually be able to use smaller groups of units in a way that is more effective than just 1Aing all your army, and from a theoretical standpoint it looks possible and logical that micro can defeat strong AOE, but I actually hadn't thought that it might not be possible. This point has actually been proven before with AI maps that dodge storms, banelings or tank shots in such a way that the armies take the least possible damage, but the APM required exceeds the thousands IIRC.
Basically, considering all the changes, in order to play SC2 like BW you'd need 10x the APM of the fastest BW players. I'm not saying the game is harder, I'm saying the speed of the game and the improvements make it so this happens.
The OP is saying that while reavers and storms and tanks deal INSANE amounts of damage in BW, the time resource invested in making them be effective makes micro and positioning be a lot more relevant to the game outcome. He's saying that making things kill each other slower is an idea that would allow players to keep up with the game without disabling the AI and UI changes made in SC2.
This seems like the answer to all the different problems discussed in this thread.
Are you suggesting we transcend our physical bodies while playing Sc2?
No? I'm saying that our bodies are not able to respond quickly enough to micro perfectly against the high dps/high focus numbers in lategame armies.
Oh, I think I misread you. I thought you were saying that the underlying problem with Sc2 is that we are limited by having physical bodies... so we need to transcend and become beings of pure intellect if we want to play Sc2 at a higher level.
Imagine the pros burning aura in their booths during intense micro situations lol
On July 12 2012 23:55 naastyOne wrote: I think a lot of that, if not most is intentional.
SC2 was build around 10-20 minutes per match in mind, not 40-60 like BW. Thus, it is faster in most ways.
Again, to stress it, is is not a bug, it is a feature, that was intended.
Why? Well it is largely better for touraments to have shorter matches, since it allows more players participating it tournament for same amount of equipment, space, and support personal such as casters.
It is more convenient to play shorter high intensivity matches as a player, because your time is not quite delivered in the 30-40 minutes blocks.
Also, there is a problem of the maps. The initial maps were smaller, they had way more vulrnable naturals, and very vulrnable thirds. The game was designed for 1 base play for quite some time, not the 16CC, forge fast expand and so on.
But than the community wanted similar to BW maps, that have naturals and easier to get thinds. They hated rocks on the third expancion.
Eventually the map pool changed so that naturals are super easy to secure, which fuels the economy way faster than it was unticipated at the design stage.
Conclusion? Community needs to change their mentall setup from BW to SC2, and make maps that have more vulrnable mains and naturals, then you will see harrasment.
When naturals and thirds are super easy to secure, harrasment is not an interesting option.
The deathball is not only a problem of SC2 mechancs, but also a maps that are made by community, maps that are too secure, that have a lot of chokes that allow to defend the gready play way too easy, and punishing gready play too hard.
EPT
Not the physical limits of our bodies, but the limits of our physical bodies would be the better way to put it.
