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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better.
Eh, it is not totally worthless for a pro to come out and say "this is my honest opinion after careful review." Presumably they are good at forming opinions of this kind. You don't ask your doctor to go through his entire personal reasoning process when he comes in and tells you his diagnosis.
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On June 06 2012 02:21 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:19 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better. ok sorry, relax guy! how do you know i'm a guy? why so presumptuous?
Ok sorry, relax it ^_^
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hackers and cheaters just disgust me. recently there's a lot of these threads, also in dota2.
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On June 06 2012 02:21 zerglingrodeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better. Eh, it is not totally worthless for a pro to come out and say "this is my honest opinion after careful review." Presumably they are good at forming opinions of this kind. You don't ask your doctor to go through his entire personal reasoning process when he comes in and tells you his diagnosis.
I demand my doctor's reasoning process. I don't want to know how his brain works, but I do demand that he tells me why and/or how based on his analysis of my injury/illness (If applicable. Obviously broken bones are obvious). If you leave with nothing else, take this advice: Ask your doctors questions. This is all completely unrelated, but at least if you ask more questions when examined by your doctors, something good will have come out of this thread.
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On June 06 2012 02:21 zerglingrodeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better. Eh, it is not totally worthless for a pro to come out and say "this is my honest opinion after careful review." Presumably they are good at forming opinions of this kind. You don't ask your doctor to go through his entire personal reasoning process when he comes in and tells you his diagnosis.
Use your brain though, how could we actually convict someone over the internet for cheating on this game if to not go by a pros non-bias opinion? If you ask Kasparov, Karpov, Fischer, and Spassky to review an online chess finals to see if one of the players were cheating and all of them were in agreement he was, what more need we do? If the best of the best thinks he hacks then what do the worst of the worst opinions even matter? If you're learning how to putt and Tiger Woods gives you advice as well as your brother who has golfed for almost 2 years now, on the same subject, who's advice would you value more?
The pros opinions outweigh everyone elses.. We have CatZ, Drewbie, TT1, Illusion, IdrA, and PainUser saying they think he hacks. What more do we need?
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On June 06 2012 02:25 BlackGosu wrote:
hackers and cheaters just disgust me. recently there's a lot of these threads, also in dota2.
It is not even possible to hack in dota2?
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On June 06 2012 02:20 Starshaped wrote:I'm just gonna keep quoting this until someone addresses it, because you really don't need more than one fucking instance of obvious maphack. Forget the magic scans, forget everything, just watch this one fucking moment: Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:06 Starshaped wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
maybe that one inch ahead forward and re siege again so his tanks are in range of the bloody ramp for an more effective contain? How about we talk about how he got owned left and right by drops all over the place?
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On June 06 2012 02:16 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:13 Mobsy wrote:
Haha so funny, 6 or 7 pros now have said he hacked yet all you little kids still think you know the game better than the pros. Jesus, talk about the Dunning-Kruger effect! We are looking for solid numbers, not estimations and opinions. Or rather, they are.
You are asking for the impossible, that is the nature of these kinds of hacks if they are used well. There is no smoking gun that 100% shows Spades is hacking. Unless we get an image of his hard drive, we will never have the hard facts people are looking for.
All we have is Occam's Razor. If you don't like it, well your are entitled to your opinion. However, professionals and events that are trying to make a living off of SC2 have to make the hard call based on the information they have.
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On June 06 2012 02:18 solidONE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about...... I appreciate you being open about your opinion, and I know how you said you're not invested enough into this to really take the time to break it down..but truly I urge you to do it. It's important to the community and we deserve people like you to help in these kinds of situations. I'm not saying it's like an obligation but we could really use your insight dude :|
Where does he say that? Quite a few other pros have posted detailed analysis of his play, I don't know why one more would sway anyone either one.
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On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions.
He gave the same analysis that Catz did. Terran players do not move tanks-first up ramps and along cliffs without vision. Spades did this _multiple times_ because he knew his units were safe. He had no vision and did no scans in these cases yet moved his tanks to the perfect position every time and never lost one due to walking into units that could have surprised him.
e: wording
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painuser opinion matters why? hes a pro player and is not obligated to explain. even though its right on top of the op that you should use evidence to back up claims. now hes getting mad at other people and pretending not to be with quotes like "he's mad U STYLIN BRO."
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On June 06 2012 02:22 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:21 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:19 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better. ok sorry, relax guy! how do you know i'm a guy? why so presumptuous? Ok sorry, relax it ^_^
you better be sorry because you got owned.
User was warned for this post
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On June 06 2012 02:27 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:18 solidONE wrote:On June 06 2012 01:57 PainUser wrote:
I have watched all the replays and analyzed them quite closely. I believe Spades was cheating. This is coming from someone who did not know Spades was a previous hacker and a personal friend of his. I am dissapointed and irritated. We have had some great games in the past and it just makes me question the integrity of anything he has ever accomplished. I would imagine Spades is a good player without the hacks but I just don't know anymore.
Nobody plays this way, there are far too many instances of fishy+screen freezes on last location. Not to mention the troop movement and scans are just out of this world fishy. In TvT, positioning is everything and he NEVER airs on the side of caution. There are too many blatantly risky troop movements on his part that you simply would not do without vision of your opponent. That is my two cents I don't care to go into too much detail because it is obvious to me.
We need to clamp down on more of these situations especially with all the online tournaments and money floating around. Crazy to think about...... I appreciate you being open about your opinion, and I know how you said you're not invested enough into this to really take the time to break it down..but truly I urge you to do it. It's important to the community and we deserve people like you to help in these kinds of situations. I'm not saying it's like an obligation but we could really use your insight dude :| Where does he say that? Quite a few other pros have posted detailed analysis of his play, I don't know why one more would sway anyone either one.
Scratch my first sentence, next poster linked PainUser's statement.
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On June 06 2012 02:15 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:13 Mobsy wrote:
Haha so funny, 6 or 7 pros now have said he hacked yet all you little kids still think you know the game better than the pros. Jesus, talk about the Dunning-Kruger effect! QFT its mindblowing people are still arguing about this. Its so obvious he cheated but I geuss people like to argue!
People just want hard evidence, not 'expert analysis'. It's a serious, career ending accusation.
I remember in the Trayvon Martin thread, daPhreak mentioning you should always take expert analysis with a grain of salt. It's impossible for anyone to be 100% objective about any issue, and if you look hard enough, you can find an expert to support any position you take.
If Spades really does hack, some kind of hard, technical proof shouldn't be to hard to find. Until then, I'm reserving judgement.
And I think a lot of criticism has nothing to do with Spades, but how his situation was handled by TL. If this is how all accusations of hacking are going to be handled in the future, I can't imagine TL being a very pleasant community. :/
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On June 06 2012 02:25 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:21 zerglingrodeo wrote:On June 06 2012 02:17 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:14 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:On June 06 2012 02:12 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 02:02 PainUser wrote:
I'm not invested enough to give a point by point breakdown to convince people my opinion is correct. Thats my opinion and it isn't changing. Why did you voice your opinion if you are not going to invest in enough time to bring down spades' reputation? You already invested enough time to watch all 109 of his replays, even at 8x per replay it would take you at least 5 hour straight. Why not spend a 10th of that time write up a point by point argument supported with examples of suspicious actions. He just said why, he doesn't feel the need to covince people his opinion is correct! he said why he doesn't want to do the point by point, i ask why he even bother voice his opinion as in a baseless opinion is worthless, and he should not have voiced it, read better. Eh, it is not totally worthless for a pro to come out and say "this is my honest opinion after careful review." Presumably they are good at forming opinions of this kind. You don't ask your doctor to go through his entire personal reasoning process when he comes in and tells you his diagnosis. I demand my doctor's reasoning process. I don't want to know how his brain works, but I do demand that he tells me why and/or how based on his analysis of my injury/illness (If applicable. Obviously broken bones are obvious). If you leave with nothing else, take this advice: Ask your doctors questions. This is all completely unrelated, but at least if you ask more questions when examined by your doctors, something good will have come out of this thread.
You're an asshole of a patient. I bet you have the better business bureau's phone number in your cell phone too.
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On June 06 2012 02:21 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 02:17 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 06 2012 02:16 Psychobabas wrote:On June 06 2012 02:13 Mobsy wrote:
Haha so funny, 6 or 7 pros now have said he hacked yet all you little kids still think you know the game better than the pros. Jesus, talk about the Dunning-Kruger effect! We are looking for solid numbers, not estimations and opinions. So you not even taking the top pro´s opinions in the NA scene into consideration, really? well then Its like trying to solve a murder case without the police then! Wrong analogy in my opinion. Not like that at all.
Really? becuase the progamers are the police in this case they are the experts. Not wrong at all
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spades use to be a hero, now hes a zero! what a loser lol
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On June 06 2012 02:29 Warillions wrote:
spades use to be a hero, now hes a zero! what a loser lol
This is not the first time.
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On June 06 2012 02:29 Warillions wrote:
spades use to be a hero, now hes a zero! what a loser lol
When exactly?
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EPT
