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On June 03 2012 08:19 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:57 thrawn1020 wrote:On June 02 2012 09:32 GuitarBizarre wrote:On June 02 2012 09:11 thrawn1020 wrote:
Well, @FrostedMiniWheats and @Witten, neither one of you seems to have understood what I was saying.
I saw Symbol play. He was good. I know he has good results in foreign tournaments. I've seen the record.
Jjakji: didn't make it back into Code S. Also wildly overrated for his play in recent months. Sc: Struggling with his health, sure; but what league is he in? Code B. NO offense intended there, but he is in Code B. And lastly, Seed. Low-tier Code S player. Likely to perennially be in the Up and Down matches. I want better for him, but he hasn't shown it yet.
I want to see players do well coming out of Code B, don't get me wrong. I'm no Yonghwa apologist. There are people who have repeatedly qualified since we knew about Yonghwa. I know, the Code A qualifier is hard; but there are players who are more deserving of Code A slots; many are in Code A now.
Quoting GuitarBizarre "And on MKP's side, he's not going to fall apart just because of a few recent losses, he's been around too long for that."
Really, nobody has been around too long for that. Nobody is proven. MKP has one of the worst styles of any of the Code S terrans remaining for TvT. Only Happy and theSTC are worse, and they are at least practicing the right styles. And if you think that MKP can't fall out just because he survived GomTvT, then I urge you to watch the first round of Code A. Bring your handkerchief; there will be crying involved when some of your favorite old Terrans fall out. At this point, MKP is too good to lose out of Code A, but I see him as easily able to slip out of Code S and have some trouble coming back. This is no weekend tournament; This is a preparation-based format where it is not merely the best player at playing 30 games in a row who wins, it is the player who can define what it is about the other player they can attack and break down, and then execute it. And second places in foreign events that happen over a weekend, and/or old GSL formats that involved a lot of substandard players, don't mean diddly to me. I don't pay for the GSL to watch ladder games; I judge based on the best, most prepared games possible, with a specific opponent in mind. And the GSL has delivered. Casters can say what they want; words are wind. They are paid for them. MKP has been the best performer abroad in weekend tournaments -- congratulations to him. But I have more respect for players who win a GSL than players who win any foreign tournament -- excepting Jjakji, who has fallen off precipitously since he won.
Oh, and never, ever, did I say I thought MKP was "bad". I'm looking for the part of that post where you actually made any points. I can't find it. What I can find is you repeatedly asserting that MKP has a bad style (Disagree, it kills players just as well as anyone elses style.), and that there is a "Right" style for T (Again, disagree. No such thing as a "right" style. Anything can lose.) As for "ZOMG GSL IS THE ONLY TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS" - Get off your high horse, really. A tournament is a tournament is a tournament. If MKP is beating good players anywhere, he can beat them anywhere. Does preparation time change the game some? Yes. Does it invalidate anything else? Fuck no. I watch those other tournaments too. That's why I talk about the quality of the games. Nobody said those games were terrible but you. YOU were the one who said that Red Bull Battlegrounds and an MLG were the same, even though one has over 100 more players in it and a TON more recognition. And I did never say that anyone should not seek to make money off the game from some tournament if it is paying out. If MKP can go overseas and make better money than what he can do in a Preparation-based format, more power to him. I'd do the same in his position. But the best play in the world comes from the GSL. And that is the yardstick by which people are measured in terms of skill, like it or not. There is a reason foreigners _choose_ to play at the GSL. It is the MOST prestigious tournament on the planet, period. It is not about the money; it is about winning the toughest tournament in the world. People like Naniwa don't give a damn about winning an MLG because GSL exists and is a higher quality win. And frankly, without a GSL win, nobody in the world can lay claim to the title of best in the world. And THAT is why I watch. Call me when MKP wins. Feel free to disagree with me; I'll live. But I don't want to watch games where one side has to pull an all-nighter just to play a game live. Call me when the NASL is holding nightly events that I can fly to and attend on a regular basis, for free. It will happen; whether or not the NASL is the first one on this side of the ocean to do it is another matter. I'll be waiting; I'll definitely be watching if they can make that happen. You started off talking about things I'd said, then you miraculously veered off into talking about completely unrelated things like prize money? And being able to fly to the tournament and get in for free? What the actual fuck are you smoking? There's no coherent train of thought in this entire damned post.
It's time to quote a little bit of what you said, with rebuttal.
"A tournament is a tournament is a tournament."
GSL == NASL == EWM == Red Bull Battlegrounds == Playhem Daily
The true fact is, not all tournaments are created equal. Many of them aren't worth paying any attention to at all. But don't take my word for it. Look at who doesn't even bother to play, money and everything else. How many events does Nestea play in? How many does MVP travel to? Why did players like Heart and Killer go to Complexity? It's because they needed the financial support to travel to other tournaments, which they had to go to because they weren't making as much money staying in Korea as they wanted. Heart is one of those players who just needs to put it together and do it in the booth; he's a monster weekend player. Lots of stamina, but continually underwhelming in a format where people can break his style down, and attack it aggressively.
"What I can find is you repeatedly asserting that MKP has a bad style (Disagree, it kills players just as well as anyone elses style.), and that there is a "Right" style for T (Again, disagree. No such thing as a "right" style. Anything can lose.)"
What I assert is that there is a wrong style, not that there is a "right" one.
"If MKP is beating good players anywhere, he can beat them anywhere."
The players who are good at online events and can't hack it in live tournaments are everywhere. There are a million of them for one who can get in a booth in front of a crowd and do it there. When you assume that being in the studio and having them put makeup on you doesn't do something to the player, you are wrong. I don't want to see MKP beat good players somewhere else. I want to see him do it in the GSL studio, against a player who has known about his matchup for a week, and had time to practice for it. DRG did it. MVP does it. Nestea has done it. As much as Jjakji has fallen off, he did it once. MC has done it. Nobody remembers second place. Even though Squirtle is scary right now, in two months if he doesn't back it up with another strong performance, he'll be just another face in the crowd. You know, Inca got second once too. Where is he now? Second place in a GSL means "You're on the radar. Now do it. Again." But if you go out there and botch it for 4 months, it was just a flash in the pan, and we have a ton more games to judge you accurately on.
"Does preparation time change the game some?" Preparation changes everything. I would explain, but if you cannot see the difference between a player playing 60 hours in one matchup against a specific style, and one who is going in cold for his 4th bo3 in a single day, then I'm wasting my time. There is a reason that the most innovative play comes from practicing, not playing tournament games.
"Does it invalidate anything else?" It's time to quote what I said before.
"And I [never said] that anyone should not seek to make money off the game from [a] tournament if it is [worth it]. If MKP can go overseas and make better money than what he can do in a Preparation-based format, more power to him. I'd do the same in his position." Simple, and clear. Again, you are putting words in my mouth when you assert that I'm invalidating other results. I'm just putting them in perspective. What makes the GSL different is that it requires acquiring and maintaining a constant level of skill over a two month period of time, played out over many days.
We all want MKP to win a GSL. I'd be the first to congratulate him when he does.
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^People sure can bitch about anything and everything eh. On a sidenote, come on nestea! Beat naniwa! I believe in you especially with MC coaching you!
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^Nestea doesn't need it bro. All he needs is sleep and he'll eat Naniwa :p
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And frankly, without a GSL win, nobody in the world can lay claim to the title of best in the world. And THAT is why I watch. What makes the GSL different is that it requires acquiring and maintaining a constant level of skill over a two month period of time, played out over many days.
I always wonder about that. I feel as though practicing the same match is an entirely different level of activity than playing all of them. Being better at one match for a time as opposed to good but not near perfect at them all. Working only on engines for years doesn't necessarily make you a better mechanic than someone who can repair engine problems along with issues with your struts even if you may be able to work on the engine slightly more efficiently.
This debate reminds me of doctors... General practioners versus specialists; the gastroenterologist may be better equipped to handle issues of the stomach but he isn't an inherently better doctor.
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On June 03 2012 09:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
^Nestea doesn't need it bro. All he needs is sleep and he'll eat Naniwa :p
We need our zerg brethen to give our energy to our overlord on that day...
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mkp parting rematch again again!~
MVP might have the hardest practice schedule imo since he will have to play all 3 races and do a team kill.
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@Prophanity
I do see your point, but of course the practice for one matchup only begins in the Round of 8 and above, or is the result of a lucky group in the earlier rounds. So I guess if Squirtle gets through, maybe we say "well, but he only played one matchup in that group, we'll see how he does in the round of 16." In most of the early stages, players have to play several matchups to get through...but they do know the player ahead of time. I'm sure practicing for Parting is much different than practicing for Creator though. It's that difference that makes the prep so important to me. I don't want to watch the best generalized PvT in the world, I want to watch the player who can find tactics within their style to throw at opponents and beat them. And then next week, in a different matchup, maybe one they are weaker at, they are able to do the same thing. Without this practice time, and the pressure to succeed, the game we watch would be very different. Sometimes a player finds something that can be generalized; sometimes they just do something established, concealed well. Either way, it is in the searching during the prep time that the level of play progresses.
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On June 03 2012 10:27 thrawn1020 wrote:
@Prophanity
I do see your point, but of course the practice for one matchup only begins in the Round of 8 and above, or is the result of a lucky group in the earlier rounds. So I guess if Squirtle gets through, maybe we say "well, but he only played one matchup in that group, we'll see how he does in the round of 16." In most of the early stages, players have to play several matchups to get through...but they do know the player ahead of time. I'm sure practicing for Parting is much different than practicing for Creator though. It's that difference that makes the prep so important to me. I don't want to watch the best generalized PvT in the world, I want to watch the player who can find tactics within their style to throw at opponents and beat them. And then next week, in a different matchup, maybe one they are weaker at, they are able to do the same thing. Without this practice time, and the pressure to succeed, the game we watch would be very different. Sometimes a player finds something that can be generalized; sometimes they just do something established, concealed well. Either way, it is in the searching during the prep time that the level of play progresses.
this shit irritates me, just fucking quote the guy.
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From me: And frankly, without a GSL win, nobody in the world can lay claim to the title of best in the world. And THAT is why I watch. What makes the GSL different is that it requires acquiring and maintaining a constant level of skill over a two month period of time, played out over many days.
In response, Prophanity said, I always wonder about that. I feel as though practicing the same match is an entirely different level of activity than playing all of them. Being better at one match for a time as opposed to good but not near perfect at them all. Working only on engines for years doesn't necessarily make you a better mechanic than someone who can repair engine problems along with issues with your struts even if you may be able to work on the engine slightly more efficiently.
This debate reminds me of doctors... General practioners versus specialists; the gastroenterologist may be better equipped to handle issues of the stomach but he isn't an inherently better doctor.
And I replied, I do see your point, but of course the practice for one matchup only begins in the Round of 8 and above, or is the result of a lucky group in the earlier rounds. So I guess if Squirtle gets through, maybe we say "well, but he only played one matchup in that group, we'll see how he does in the round of 16." In most of the early stages, players have to play several matchups to get through...but they do know the player ahead of time. I'm sure practicing for Parting is much different than practicing for Creator though. It's that difference that makes the prep so important to me. I don't want to watch the best generalized PvT in the world, I want to watch the player who can find tactics within their style to throw at opponents and beat them. And then next week, in a different matchup, maybe one they are weaker at, they are able to do the same thing. Without this practice time, and the pressure to succeed, the game we watch would be very different. Sometimes a player finds something that can be generalized; sometimes they just do something established, concealed well. Either way, it is in the searching during the prep time that the level of play progresses.
Not a problem.
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Group f is going to be intense. I love watching p/t v z, but i really want parting and mkp through.
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On June 03 2012 10:27 thrawn1020 wrote:
@Prophanity
I do see your point, but of course the practice for one matchup only begins in the Round of 8 and above, or is the result of a lucky group in the earlier rounds. So I guess if Squirtle gets through, maybe we say "well, but he only played one matchup in that group, we'll see how he does in the round of 16." In most of the early stages, players have to play several matchups to get through...but they do know the player ahead of time. I'm sure practicing for Parting is much different than practicing for Creator though. It's that difference that makes the prep so important to me. I don't want to watch the best generalized PvT in the world, I want to watch the player who can find tactics within their style to throw at opponents and beat them. And then next week, in a different matchup, maybe one they are weaker at, they are able to do the same thing. Without this practice time, and the pressure to succeed, the game we watch would be very different. Sometimes a player finds something that can be generalized; sometimes they just do something established, concealed well. Either way, it is in the searching during the prep time that the level of play progresses.
Fair enough. I too am not discrediting the GSL at all and love it equally; it is just an apples and oranges thing in comparison to me.
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On June 03 2012 11:06 Prophanity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 10:27 thrawn1020 wrote:
@Prophanity
I do see your point, but of course the practice for one matchup only begins in the Round of 8 and above, or is the result of a lucky group in the earlier rounds. So I guess if Squirtle gets through, maybe we say "well, but he only played one matchup in that group, we'll see how he does in the round of 16." In most of the early stages, players have to play several matchups to get through...but they do know the player ahead of time. I'm sure practicing for Parting is much different than practicing for Creator though. It's that difference that makes the prep so important to me. I don't want to watch the best generalized PvT in the world, I want to watch the player who can find tactics within their style to throw at opponents and beat them. And then next week, in a different matchup, maybe one they are weaker at, they are able to do the same thing. Without this practice time, and the pressure to succeed, the game we watch would be very different. Sometimes a player finds something that can be generalized; sometimes they just do something established, concealed well. Either way, it is in the searching during the prep time that the level of play progresses. Fair enough. I too am not discrediting the GSL at all and love it equally; it is just an apples and oranges thing in comparison to me.
You are quite right. It is a different skillset that is being tested. And being good at holding it together, stringing 3 12 hour days together, is a hard thing. With flights on either side. That's really hard. I totally understand when people underwhelm at events that are a long way away. I respect, too, those players who can put together great performances week in, week out in events around the world. That's crazy hard. I watch those other events too; I can't get enough of this game.
I went to a Magic Grand Prix, years ago. It was a team event. We damn near made day 2. Maybe we would have, but I couldn't even think after 9 hours of trying to think clearly. I respect totally those people who can put together a strong performance over a weekend; I understand it. It's a different game than the one where you have 10 days to prepare for an opponent though; all apples and oranges. I hope MKP can prepare well enough to get through this; it's a veritable shakeout of Terrans right now. I hope he's focused.
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I hope I'm wrong but I can't see ThorZaIN getting out of his group. Even if Keen decides to play like a code B player this time, Gumiho is really good vT and Squirtle way too good atm.
Naniwa should be pretty happy, he has to practice 3 matchups, while TheSTC and Nestea only have to practice 2, but nobody in the group is really amazing vs P. I think Naniwa is favourite vs Creator and he has beaten Nestea before. TheSTC is the most volatile to predict, I expect him to cheese at least once and thrown in another allin at least once, so Naniwa needs to make sure his builds can hold anything like that, but knowing Naniwa his builds will be refined to the point that anything aside from perfection on his end will result in a painful loss. In the long game TheSTC will still be dangerous but I'd give Nanners the edge.
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I just cannot get over how high the skill level is in the GSL.
All amazing players. Pretty amped for this.
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4 IM players, 4 Startale players, 4 MVP players and 4 Prime players. Only 2 SlayerS players and neither are MMA.
Crazy.
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i thought stephano will be there...
what happened, i heard something about it
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On June 03 2012 13:27 dynn wrote:
i thought stephano will be there...
what happened, i heard something about it
He declined the invitation i think.
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On June 03 2012 16:08 Darrkhan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 13:27 dynn wrote:
i thought stephano will be there...
what happened, i heard something about it He declined the invitation i think.
he's not going until August
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Go Curious <3
And I hope Nestea will be able to beat NaNiWa during the season. I just absolutely hate NaNiWa, haha.
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EPT
