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On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard.
That's exactly what everyone wants, early game terran being stronger and late game protoss being stronger is not a fun way to balance the game.
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On April 28 2012 07:46 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That's exactly what everyone wants, early game terran being stronger and late game protoss being stronger is not a fun way to balance the game.
So what should be done with terran? -30% to DPS of marines/marauders?
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On April 28 2012 07:48 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:46 Dodgin wrote:On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That's exactly what everyone wants, early game terran being stronger and late game protoss being stronger is not a fun way to balance the game. So what should be done with terran? -30% to DPS of marines/marauders?
Remove the abomination of a unit, the marauder. That would help.
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On April 28 2012 07:48 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:46 Dodgin wrote:On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That's exactly what everyone wants, early game terran being stronger and late game protoss being stronger is not a fun way to balance the game. So what should be done with terran? -30% to DPS of marines/marauders?
30% is probably too much, maybe a small nerf to terran tier 1 and a small buff to protoss tier 1. increase the EMP radius again, not as much as it used to be but more than it is now. Maybe something like an expensive upgrade that requires all tech, fusion core, armory, that buffs your infantry back to normal values or slightly higher than before. Colossus damage reduction or 8 range instead of 9, storm damage 75 or 70 instead of 80. Small tweaks just to see how it works.
I don't have all the answers and don't pretend to, I just wish we could have a more fun game to play.
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On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard.
That is when problems would start. There is no telling how weak will terrans early- and/or mid-game gets in TvZ, just because we try to fix the issues in TvP match-up.
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On April 28 2012 07:55 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That is when problems would start. There is no telling how weak will terrans early- and/or mid-game gets in TvZ, just because we try to fix the issues in TvP match-up.
So just buff terran late game, and tell the protoss players to stick it, right?
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im just really curious as to what the giving zerg more scouting options early game could be. a spell? unit?
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Talking balance with David Kim is like talking physics with a baby. Blizzard seriously needs to HIRE some pro's for a weekend thing where they all get together and have serious talks, especially QXC, just give control to QXC and I'll be happy.
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On April 28 2012 07:55 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That is when problems would start. There is no telling how weak will terrans early- and/or mid-game gets in TvZ, just because we try to fix the issues in TvP match-up.
Ok, but if we apply the same logic, than a late game Terran buff could potentially have a similar breaking effect for zerg in late game TvZ. Likewise, a Protoss lategame nerf could have a detrimental effect to the balance of late-game PvZ.
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On April 28 2012 08:02 latan wrote:
im just really curious as to what the giving zerg more scouting options early game could be. a spell? unit?
No, I don't think they will introduce something "big" like a unit.
I'd guess that they consider moving the Overseer or Overlordspeed to hatch tech - or just don't do anything at all.
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On April 28 2012 02:35 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? I...I dont even know how to respond to this. You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so. Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available.
Neither is overlord scouting, but you have no issues complaining about that. It's not free, and it's not perfect, but it is still present and available.
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On April 28 2012 07:55 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. That is when problems would start. There is no telling how weak will terrans early- and/or mid-game gets in TvZ, just because we try to fix the issues in TvP match-up.
The same issues exist in TvZ, the early mid game is on terran's side and the late game is on zerg's.
They should at least experiment a little with the early game of terrans (reduce marines fire rate, get rid or reduce the effect of concusive shell...).
Also, no energy on thors and a better way to implement strike canon would be welcome.
And, as a man can dream, I would really love if they tried a Snipe doing is old damage but on light and sionic. That would be pretty fun (sniping banshees and mutas...)
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Why is everyone QQing, when clearly Blizzard has access to all the data needed for balance (Win-rates on ladder, tournament win-rates, etc) and has a large crew that analyzes every piece of information given and some of you are like "I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss..." <-- Example.
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Someone say me why David kim is still the balance designer of this game.
And please, people stop saying bullshits.
Stop this crap about tvp being broken early game in favor of terran. Early game favors protoss.
Mid-game it is different= terran favored ( medivac appearance)
Late-game=again protoss favored
Ultra-late-game:terran favored, with the sack of scv, lots of orbital , etc etc.
Stop asking for terran to get nerfed early game. Just figure your own fucking race, well, brotoss.
And the same to Terran, and I say that as a Terran player.
The only thing that should be addressed about tvp lategame, is the amount of non-micro the protoss must do. That should be improved, mixed together with the scaling efficiency of being cost effective while the units are being microed.
Gl hf
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On April 28 2012 07:21 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:10 sunprince wrote:On April 28 2012 06:53 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On April 28 2012 06:43 EienShinwa wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just fucking take out warp gate and buff the gateway units to equally combat the T1 aggression... That wouldn't bring qqing Protoss or Terran. It's a fucking broken mechanic... and I don't think I'll play HotS if it keeps warp gates. Insta replenishing 30 supply is fucking ridiculous. Warp gate is the only problem in TvP... it's not as easy as just taking it out of the game. The game is designed around wargate so taking it out would require a complete resigning of the game. HOTS is just an expansion. Expansions are meant to just expand on the already existing game mechanics. The game wouldn't have to be redesigned. There's no reason that small-moderate adjustments to stats wouldn't do the trick. then terran and protoss would practically be the same race..
Macro mechanics didn't exist in BW and Terran and Protoss weren't "practically the same race".
Warpgates aren't the defining characteristic of the protoss race. Warp-in buildings, shields, powerful spells, and expensive units are.
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On April 28 2012 08:22 Sergio1992 wrote:
Someone say me why David kim is still the balance designer of this game.
And please, people stop saying bullshits.
Stop this crap about tvp being broken early game in favor of terran. Early game favors protoss.
Mid-game it is different= terran favored ( medivac appearance)
Late-game=again protoss favored
Ultra-late-game:terran favored, with the sack of scv, lots of orbital , etc etc.
Stop asking for terran to get nerfed early game. Just figure your own fucking race, well, brotoss.
And the same to Terran, and I say that as a Terran player.
The only thing that should be addressed about tvp lategame, is the amount of non-micro the protoss must do. That should be improved, mixed together with the scaling efficiency of being cost effective while the units are being microed.
Gl hf
The early game actually goes in cycles more in depth than that.
Before warpgate -> terran(units are simply produced faster, and potentially in larger numbers.
After warpgate -> Protoss(units are closest to equal strength, and Protoss units come out faster.
When stim finishes through midgame -> terran(more dps, more mobility with medivacs)
late game-> Protoss (powerful AoE, and mass chargelot warp-ins
ultra late-game -> terran (sacking scvs, and mass orbitals)
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I think the problem with TvP lategame is not that Terrans can't beat Protoss, its just that the game is designed in a way that Terran think they can't win.
So, we know the usual uber macro lategame Terran 3/3 bio force loses to the Protoss "deathball" pretty much no matter what. EMP's, snipes, etc. are, admittedly, tricky to hit, and make a lot of big engagements essentially coinflip wins. Also, Terran's biggest is that they pretty much lose when their centralized production facilities get attacked.
In a very good article which I forget the name of, the OP (if someone can think of it and PM me the name) discusses the "idea" behind SC2. Basically, the flashy graphics and everything want players to go in with big army and bash each other to death, then rinse and repeat. Sure its cool-- you see the BL/ imbafestor combo slowly pushing across the map with constant streams of reinforcements while the other side desperately tries to stop the tide with waves of reinforcements, or when War of the Worlds happens in an epic PvP. Yay, starcraft machinma.
Thing is, it simply doesn't work. Toss's supply efficiency becomes, essentially, king lategame when resources become less of a restriction on army value when combined with lots of warpgates and double/triple robo or stargate with chrono. People need to simply stop trying to tackle Toss head on. That is simply the wrong way to beat Toss, and it makes me facepalm so hard when people say "lategame Toss army imba". It's true, but that deathball army is only one aspect of the game, and there are other points where Toss is weaker.
Drops do not magically stop working lategame. If a Toss is maxxed, he can't warp in more stuff. Toss units move at different speeds and in different ways. BC's are really good against Toss (meaning, Toss has no efficient counter). With mules, Terrans can potentially have a larger army. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head.
For the note, I'm Masters Protoss, I do play Terran about 20% of the time, and my PvT winrate is around 40%.
tl;dr : as an oversimplification, yes, protoss can "a-move" to victory (ignoring the need to split templars, throw down storms, ff, guardian shields, keep colossi in the back, warp in units and keep zealots in the front etc), but its only effective if you're dumb enough to let protoss a-move into your army.
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For anyone with a level head, this is something that was posted today on the Battle.net forums in the thread discussing the same thing you all are discussing.
Posted by Daxxari: "I’m not sure that Stats 101 would provide the necessary perspective in this case. I had a chat with Josh Menke (our resident Phd Statistician), and this is what I was told:"
The way we calculate the adjusted win percentage is not an average over a population at all. It’s the posterior predictive outcome of a race matchup based on regression coefficients. Those coefficients have known variances (uncertainty). The uncertainty is always high enough that we know until it gets far outside +/- 5%, it’s not statistically different than 0.
As for trend vs. spike, those same coefficients are smoothed over long periods of time.
That might give all of you some much needed explanation on how Blizzard arrives at their numbers that they were posting. I myself don't understand all of this as I don't have stats knowledge over just basic stats, but some others here might.
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[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 08:25 sunprince wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 07:21 xrapture wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 07:10 sunprince wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 06:53 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 06:43 EienShinwa wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just fucking take out warp gate and buff the gateway units to equally combat the T1 aggression... That wouldn't bring qqing Protoss or Terran. It's a fucking broken mechanic... and I don't think I'll play HotS if it keeps warp gates. Insta replenishing 30 supply is fucking ridiculous. Warp gate is the only problem in TvP...[/QUOTE]
it's not as easy as just taking it out of the game. The game is designed around wargate so taking it out would require a complete resigning of the game. HOTS is just an expansion. Expansions are meant to just expand on the already existing game mechanics. [/QUOTE]
The game wouldn't have to be redesigned. There's no reason that small-moderate adjustments to stats wouldn't do the trick.[/QUOTE]
then terran and protoss would practically be the same race..
[/QUOTE]
Macro mechanics didn't exist in BW and Terran and Protoss weren't "practically the same race".
Warpgates aren't the defining characteristic of the protoss race. Warp-in buildings, shields, powerful spells, and expensive units are.[/QUOTE
No, but they are our defensive mechanic. Terran has repair, zerg has creep, and Protoss has warpgate. If a Terran does a drop, warpgate can be used to push it back. If a Terran base gets attacked, or mutas fly in, the scvs and MULEs can repair the defensive structures. And creep can allow zerg units to quickly reposition itself to defend attacks.
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[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 08:31 Wingblade wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 08:25 sunprince wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 07:21 xrapture wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 07:10 sunprince wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 06:53 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 28 2012 06:43 EienShinwa wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just fucking take out warp gate and buff the gateway units to equally combat the T1 aggression... That wouldn't bring qqing Protoss or Terran. It's a fucking broken mechanic... and I don't think I'll play HotS if it keeps warp gates. Insta replenishing 30 supply is fucking ridiculous. Warp gate is the only problem in TvP...[/QUOTE]
it's not as easy as just taking it out of the game. The game is designed around wargate so taking it out would require a complete resigning of the game. HOTS is just an expansion. Expansions are meant to just expand on the already existing game mechanics. [/QUOTE]
The game wouldn't have to be redesigned. There's no reason that small-moderate adjustments to stats wouldn't do the trick.[/QUOTE]
then terran and protoss would practically be the same race..
[/QUOTE]
Macro mechanics didn't exist in BW and Terran and Protoss weren't "practically the same race".
Warpgates aren't the defining characteristic of the protoss race. Warp-in buildings, shields, powerful spells, and expensive units are.[/QUOTE
No, but they are our defensive mechanic. Terran has repair, zerg has creep, and Protoss has warpgate. If a Terran does a drop, warpgate can be used to push it back. If a Terran base gets attacked, or mutas fly in, the scvs and MULEs can repair the defensive structures. And creep can allow zerg units to quickly reposition itself to defend attacks.
[/QUOTE]
Warp in is your everything mechanic right now.
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EPT
