Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 83

On March 27 2012 18:45 Tanukki wrote:
Also won't Terran be OP because they recycle their orbital commands while Zerg and Protoss end up with increasing amounts of increasingly useless buildings?

On March 28 2012 01:55 Barrin wrote:

I think it's incredibly foolish to assume that maps can't fix it though. In-base natural or In-natural third (maybe Terminus style) would probably help protoss a lot. Or just initial bases that are generally closer together (I actually mentioned this should be done in the OP, I don't think this was properly done on any map yet). More & smaller chokes perhaps. There's probably more, but that's probably more than enough for a while.

On March 28 2012 02:54 ppgButtercup wrote:
1. Statement is made

2. Counter-arguments ignore most of statement and request replays

3. Replays are made (albeit terrible as the people playing had not adjusted to the changes)

4. Information in replays disregarded because it didn't conform to hypothetical playstyle

5. Any imbalance shown in replays disregarded as this concept is not about balance

At what point is a replay required if it is impossible to draw anything from replays since the game is not balanced around this concept? If I am thinking through this correctly, there is no way (using your flawed logical rules) to prove your point invalid; thereby making it valid?

It has been a long time since I took a logic class, but I'm pretty sure that is a strawman or red herring or something. You cannot create an environment that demands proof, and then setup rules to where any proof given is irrelevent or not applicable.

Yes, the game I posted was terrible. But the truth of it is that thousands of games would have to get played to prove every scenario.

The reality of it is that Zerg production is tied to expanding and Zergs commonly don't saturate their bases completely anyways. This means that they will always scale faster. This means taking a 3rd or 4th will become exponentially more difficult for Protoss (and to a lesser extent Terran). This is a conceptual flaw in the idea that has very little to do with game balance.

Protoss cannot put on sufficient pressure with their limited low-base income, so Zerg can just explode at a rate they cannot keep up with. You are limiting options. You force low-econ all-ins, or explosive expanding: two things the Zerg race excels at compared to Terran and Protoss.

On March 28 2012 03:02 TheUltimate wrote:


I agree with most of what you wrote. But your suggestions here strike me as contradictory to one of the main ideas of 6m. I thought 6m was supposed to spread out the bases and take up more space. But if you put the first few bases close together and make them easy to defend together, doesn't it just start playing a bit more than 8m again?

TBH, the more I think about it, the more I think Protoss just isn't designed for play like this as it stands. Even on 8m I think they have the most boring playstyle/matchups, and I believe their win-rates are too heavily dependent on deathballs. They'll need a fundamental rethink in HotS to work with lower income. (BTW, how did Protoss manage to control space in BW?)

On March 28 2012 03:02 TheUltimate wrote:


I agree with most of what you wrote. But your suggestions here strike me as contradictory to one of the main ideas of 6m. I thought 6m was supposed to spread out the bases and take up more space. But if you put the first few bases close together and make them easy to defend together, doesn't it just start playing a bit more than 8m again?

TBH, the more I think about it, the more I think Protoss just isn't designed for play like this as it stands. Even on 8m I think they have the most boring playstyle/matchups, and I believe their win-rates are too heavily dependent on deathballs. They'll need a fundamental rethink in HotS to work with lower income. (BTW, how did Protoss manage to control space in BW?)

On March 28 2012 03:15 yarkO wrote:



Here's a thought, chap:

1) Rally up a Protoss buddy of yours (assuming you are Zerg).
2) Play a 'standard' game where nobody sends Probes to distance mine or goes for a 3gate + Forge before expo vs Zerg on FRB maps.
3) Use your low-econ Ling/Bane or Roach/Ling to deny a Protoss 3rd until you win the game.
4) Post replay(s) of that

I know, it seems so daunting a task. I know, proving your point can be difficult. However, if you can actually post a replay that shows what you are saying, as opposed to a train-wrecked Protoss playing by the seat of their pants, then maybe people will take what you have to say with a bit more punch.

On March 28 2012 04:32 Pull wrote:
Senex and I just managed to get another game up between Puget and FunDipper...two regular posters on this thread and players in the 7m channel. Check it out!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Dpu3lgJj0&context=C404445eADvjVQa1PpcFOTZ-Ot1odTkXpzlA4ImIhibFsLTBfTpKc=

I think Senex will have his up pretty soon too if you wanna see his PoV!

The channels are:

youtube.com/pullsc
youtube.com/wiseoldsenex

Also it'd be sick if you guys could give us some feedback on the casts/quality and what you may want to see different. That way the tournament can be SICK NERD BALLER

On March 28 2012 01:55 Barrin wrote:

Honestly, it was pretty obvious he was trolling from simply reading this.

On March 28 2012 04:51 stebo wrote:
I understand that it can be upsetting to see negative feedback in your threads/maps but, the reality is that people just started assuming Buttercup was theory crafting and hadn't played any games. When he revealed that he had in fact played and tested out these maps, everyone completely ignored all points he made and accused the replays he sent in as false incoherent information. At this point, anything he throws at you will be shot down by accumulating members who think he's 'trolling' because he discovered a flaw in that map (which you admittedly stated that the maps are not balanced).

Bassicaly, I've played at least 20 different games on your maps and tested out how imbalanced they are (which you are aware they are no where near perfect). So if I were to say in this thread that this map/idea sucks, you would title me a troll. By your approach, If you were working for a grocery store, and a customer started giving you an attitude, you would call that customer a douchebag?