In pro games I usually see good zergs get quite a few macro hatches with queens, like maybe 25-50% more hatches than they have bases. If you built that same amount of hatcheries across different bases on 6m you'd still have as much or more income and should have to hit your injects just as much as before. So it should be fine.
I tried to implement the HotS mod but it's locked so only the author can use it I believe.
Which of 1hyg or 2g can be abused early more is yet to be seen, and late-game it can be balanced with the right number of mineral-only bases in the right spots. That is, you can also do a 2g/0g setup where you have 1 mineral only for each 3 2g bases to keep the ratio in tact. T1 units being too strong can be balanced by making gas more available, and tech and upgrades still cost the same. Sufficed to say, niether option has proved better yet and we need to keep using 1hyg for a long amount of time to see how it can be abused.
On March 23 2012 09:35 AnalyZ wrote: im reposting this because its important for me, so you all know what this change MIGHT means:
(I'll give my opinion about that idea: This modification in Sc2 mean alot of imbalance and change:
-AoE Spell will be stronger since less unit will be made. -Chronoboost will be less used on nexus, so more used on forge/gate/robo/stargate. -The number of larvae per inject is too much. -Less gas mean more minerals unit, less gas unit (like sentry, so early protoss game will be hard) and more Tower defense (Canon, spineCrawler), + they'll be more powerfull since there is less unit. -less macro in the early/middlegame, but certainly more at the late game. -More Multitask -Cheap unit (T1-T2) will need a small nerf. -T3 unit will need a small buff. No more "UP Lategame Terran" and "OP Lategame Protoss")
- AOE spells are stronger but harder to get on 1 gas per base. - I agree, that's a good change. - I disagree, if you have too much larva just creep spread. One of the beauties of zerg is to instantly be able to remax. You can never have too much larva. It is a resource. - Also means less roaches, forge expo will be a bit stronger as roach / baneling all in is harder to pull off. You need less gas units when your opponent has less gas units. - Feels the same to me - Yup - Disagree, I've played a lot at high masters level on this map and I feel that to be honest all the units are fine right now. - ^ - Yeah the balance feels better.
(... While maybe in some ideal RTS dream 100% constant worker production is best, there is always going to be a point when you don't want to make more and you want to focus on army instead. I don't think the wavering back and forth of this variant between worker and army production is a bad thing. And in fact is rather a good thing as it promotes the expansion/small skirmish type of play the most.)
Thanks! I pulled that one out of the RTS almanac by Sun Tzu. jk
While I agree with you to a degree and like a BWesque mining AI better in some ways, I'm not sure how much dwelling on it really helps. Tbh, I'm really not sure how leaving the 8m2g with BW like mining AI really helps promote the expansion/small skirmish style the way your variant does. While over saturation becomes not worthless, it doesn't necessarily mean you are going to want to come off of two or three bases, it just means that you will mine out a little faster. Given SC2's propensity to deathball in this scenario, it just seems like that would bring about this result faster.
In a different way, the same argument applies to the variant -- I'm not sure I see how changing the AI really promotes anything besides producing more workers earlier (mostly for the sake of maynarding).
Catspajamas and co. are talking about the idea right now on IPL Apocalypse! They're really positive about the idea and interested to see how it turns out!
On March 23 2012 11:06 DrowSwordsman wrote: Catspajamas and co. are talking about the idea right now on IPL Apocalypse! They're really positive about the idea and interested to see how it turns out!
On March 23 2012 11:08 lithyeld wrote: Catspijamas just mentionned FRB in IPL Tournament of Champions a few seconds ago ! ! !
Fame is at hand
This is just AWESOME!
Also another thing, I did get a reply from XenoX101!: + Show Spoiler +
Would you be able to incorporate your HOTS custom into a 6m1hyg map?
Hey, I could do this for say a few maps, let me know which ones and I'll see what I can do.
Also regarding the pylon power issue and abduct issue I'll try to get on to it but I've been extremely busy with uni so I can't promise anything, the other maps still work well and I'll be adding Cloud Kingdom and potentialy Korhal Compound sometime soon for those interested.
I did also give the idea some exposure on my YouTube channel with a 6m1hyg game with live commentary.
I know this is not what we're pushing for, but this is just some fun theory crafting to muse on.
Instead of using the roundabout way of soft capping through bad IA (which also results in more inconsistent mining rates, from what I understand, and feels like a stupid worker), make it a direct feature. For each unit added to a mineral patch, the mining rate goes down by one. So we have 1 worker = 5 per trip for a rate of 40 minerals per minute (mpm), 2 workers = 4 per trip for a rate of 64 minerals per minute, 3 workers = 3 per trip for a rate of 72 minerals per minute. I think those numbers may need to be tweaked, but basically hard-wiring the soft cap into the collection rate -- then it doesn't just feel like a sluggish and ADD scv.
On another note, it made me giddy to hear them so positive for it on the IPL cast!
Someone needs to get a tournament to host these maps and viewers need to see if they like it. Hype it up first though so people know to tune in, then get the feedback after.
On March 23 2012 11:49 mishimaBeef wrote: Someone needs to get a tournament to host these maps and viewers need to see if they like it. Hype it up first though so people know to tune in, then get the feedback after.
On March 23 2012 11:49 mishimaBeef wrote: Someone needs to get a tournament to host these maps and viewers need to see if they like it. Hype it up first though so people know to tune in, then get the feedback after.
We could start some tournaments on Playhem?
This! Someone set one up! Make it a daily if possible!
On March 23 2012 11:49 mishimaBeef wrote: Someone needs to get a tournament to host these maps and viewers need to see if they like it. Hype it up first though so people know to tune in, then get the feedback after.
We could start some tournaments on Playhem?
This! Someone set one up! Make it a daily if possible!
I'm probably going to get lambasted for this, but what about increasing the distance of some mineral patches from the ideal town center location, sort of like what Blizzard did on a lot of their early Starcraft 1 maps and campaign missions?
If for any given base, say, 3 mineral patches are 3 tiles from the CC/Nexus/Hatchery and the rest are distributed in some fashion up to maybe 6 or 7 spaces away, I think that might get some of the effects we're looking for.
As an example, look at the lower left and upper right bases on this map (these are the ones that aren't start locations): + Show Spoiler +
First, there would be an increase in income for much higher worker counts than 16 to 18 on minerals, but for each worker added past 2 on each close mineral patch, income gained from that worker would be less than income gained from previous workers.
Second, and I believe more important, is that having more bases would create more income without having to add workers, creating a very real and immediate benefit from getting an expansion up, even when the player doesn't have a tremendous number of workers to saturate it with.
This might cause problems with the current state of certain matchups, especially ZvP, where the Zerg player, having more workers and more bases, will probably see runaway victories when Protoss FFEs. It will also create more dimension to mule usage, as the income decrease from patches being depleted will be more immediate if the player mules the near patches.
I'm not going to comment on the mule thing. Probably, a lot of Protoss and Zerg players will feel like that's a good thing, and Terrans will think it will ruin their race.
However, even with those issues and any other that I haven't found, I think this is a solution worth exploring. Possibly we might, although it pains me to say this, add destructible rocks to some bases to keep this from breaking ZvP. Possibly we will have more minerals in the near patches than the far patches to keep extensive muling in the early game from ruining Terran income later in the game. I have confidence that mapmakers will find ways to solve problems that arise from making changes to such a basic map feature as mineral layout.
Hey everyone! Here's a huge content update to tide you over the weekend, Pull and I casted 10 games last night while hanging around the 7m channel on NA and hopping in games as they formed. In case you don't want to watch every game I've included a list of the games and what you can look forward to in each one of them below. Thanks everyone for watching and I hope you enjoy!
Game 1: A ZvZ on the 2 gas version of Devolution with aggressive ling/bling/roach fights. Game 2: A TvT where Pull himself steps into the ring. Game 3: A TvT with Pull yet again, where some technical difficulties lead to a really funny cast. Game 4: A ZvT featuring a ton of expansion and macro oriented play. Game 5: A PvZ with absolutely amazing harass utilizing the features of the map Arrival. Game 6: WATCH THIS ONE! Seriously, even if you don't watch any these other games this was by far the best of the night! Game 7: A PvT on the 2 gas version of Devolution with a lot of analysis of what 2 gas geysers changes. Game 8: A PvT rematch from the players in game 7 on 6m1hyg Shakuras Plateau Game 9: A ZvP on FRB Daybreak done super late at night as Pull and I are getting tired and silly. Game 10: The final game of the night, where Pull and I face off while streaming and spend the whole time trash-talking each other. :D
There are two games I'm going to link here, the first one, Game 6, because it was fricking awesome!
And this one, Game 7, because it pertains to the 2 gas vs 1hyg discussion. The commentary mostly speaks for itself and it looks like Barrin isn't going down that path anymore anyway, but I just wanted to say that if you watch the units tab for the Protoss you'll see some really silly things along the lines of 4 Zealots, 4 Sentries, 3 Archons and 8 High Templar. Obviously this is only one game and can't be used as anything beyond a single datapoint, but it really does suggest to me that some warped unit ratios will occur in 6m2g games.
If you want to check out more videos like this one you can check out my channel at www.youtube.com/wiseoldsenex and be sure to subscribe for updates as more casts are uploaded. You should also check Pull, the excellent co-caster for these 10 games at www.youtube.com/pullsc and www.twitch.tv/pullsc
Oh, and one quick question for those who know xsplit better than I do, there are a few points in the casts where the game sounds and the skype call with Pull start to warble, but the recording of my voice stays normal. Does anyone know what might be causing that and how I could fix it? Thanks!
@FoxyMayhem: Is there any word on the pro-gamer showmatch on FRB maps? I have no experience with organizing an event like this, so I don't know the right ways to contact the players or arrange a prize pool, but if you need any help just ask and I'll be happy to do what I can.
Edit: Crossposting with Pull Unfortunately after last night's cast and getting all these uploaded I do need to sleep, but be sure to check out his channel and see the games!
That TvZ makes me think. Time investments in unit production are more forgiving and yield higher rewards? Is it fair to conclude that that is a possibility? Would that then mean that carriers are would be more easily attained? Gwerg!. I wish I had access to sc2 this week T.T
I've heard that the game was balanced around the initial 8m/2g. What if we kept the starting bases like that, but changed all the expos to 6m/1g? That would also make the gold expansions that much more valuable. Possible this has already been suggested, also possible it's a stupid suggestion, but those are my thoughts.
On March 23 2012 13:30 OldManSenex wrote: Game 5: A PvZ with absolutely amazing harass utilizing the features of the map Arrival.
Oh god, I was hoping that one wouldn't make it to video. is how I felt during that game.
edit: Watching the video, dear god... I didn't make a single unit for the last few minutes and my money/larva bank... terrible. I thought I was way more behind than I actually was.
On March 23 2012 11:49 mishimaBeef wrote: Someone needs to get a tournament to host these maps and viewers need to see if they like it. Hype it up first though so people know to tune in, then get the feedback after.
We could start some tournaments on Playhem?
I have been hosting informal King of The Hill matches with what I consider success. It has been alot of fun. Come to channel 7m if you want to join.
EPT
jk
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/2/28/Volcanis.jpg)
is how I felt during that game. 
