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Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
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NEW IN-GAME CHANNEL: FRB
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 21:53:44
March 16 2012 21:21 GMT
#221
Boss post detected. Reading commencing in 5, 4, 3, 2.........


EDIT: Okay, finished. Truly a Boss post, and I would love for this to be added to the 1.5 PTR (if it even comes up).
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
DomiNater
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States527 Posts
March 16 2012 21:27 GMT
#222
@Barrin

I just fired up the Devolution map 6M2G and I spawned Top right with a siege tank in siege mode in the 4th base that I owned.

I made 1 drone and the game tells me to make an overlord lol.
After I captured the elephant in the room, swept her under the rug for the hell of it... I welcome you to the melting through, of a planet that was selfish in its development of a healthy view.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 16 2012 21:28 GMT
#223
On March 17 2012 06:04 bgx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 05:50 Grumbels wrote:
I think this is a bit of an arbitrary fix. Why not argue for reducing the number of minerals per patch or making the increase of income per worker less linear?

Didnt you read the article? The actual "side effects" of cutting 1-2 minerals are mostly intriguing and appealing (less worker saturation and its benefit to varying the gameplay). The whole article is not about that we need lets say 20% cut to the economy.

I don't see anything in the article that's a convincing argument for reducing mineral patches. There's a bunch of analysis about problems the game has, but I don't buy the argument that this fix will help - and in fact there are more obvious solutions that are overlooked in the article.

There are a whole bunch of variables to tweak here, # of mineral patches is only one, and it's completely untested what effect changing it will have. For all we know reducing income makes rushes more powerful (rush distance stays the same while gaining minerals for economy infrastructure takes longer). And the game needs to be rebalanced around this anyway, so it's actually possible to question all variables. For instance, the relative cost of tech, production facilities, supply, army, economy, max supply could all be subject to change - as it's not clear at all why the current ratios are necessarily any good, outside of the fact we have a functioning game. However that's probably not going to happen, as the game would have to change so much then.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
ElMacedonian
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States79 Posts
March 16 2012 21:28 GMT
#224
sick post! makes me really wonder if how it would change the game, would zerg do better with this cuz they have best static d and fastest expands? i love the idea of this all though. excited to see how it would play out in terms of balance!

what if the initial base stayed at 8 minerals but the rest went to six? that way we wouldnt really have to relearn the game, idk just kinda seems like a more feasible transition you now?

on your map devolution would making the two cliffs in the middle be better as holes? i can see collo and siege tanks really abusing them instead of using them as the positioning tools they are meant to be
i made my twitter account just so i could follow tastosis
gCgCrypto
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany297 Posts
March 16 2012 21:29 GMT
#225
i now played some games (only vs AI as my internet is unstable as hell) and i have to say that i prefere 6M 1 HYG way more over enything els. it has a really BW esque feel to it and you have to expand very frequently and spread your army to defend all locations. Honestly i owuld just start right with that. Doing it with steppes might be the right thing for WoL but i still did not give up the hope for insta 6M 1HYG in HotS.really impressed by your post and the maps. Thanks dude and keep up yor work! get this into Blittards face so they can not not implement it!!!!!!!!
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
marttorn
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Norway5211 Posts
March 16 2012 21:30 GMT
#226
Barrin, if I were to have the ability to initiate those cheesy slow, build-up kind of applauses through the internet, I would do it in your honor. Wonderful, wonderful post.
memes are a dish best served dank
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 21:31:59
March 16 2012 21:31 GMT
#227
Barrin's dropped a bomb.

I think this is the sort of thing we need for dynamic gameplay. Possible changes to the roach might also do something. I'm a zerg by the way.
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
JOJOsc2news
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
3000 Posts
March 16 2012 21:32 GMT
#228
This is such an interesting concept.
It doesn't feel right to respond without putting a bit more thought into the response. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this.

Before I really think this through and try to respond 2 quick things:
  1. I just want to point out that there is a little bit of a sentence missing in the examples section right under the Devolution Map Spoiler:

    Example 1: Inject larva is very strong on 6m maps leading to many excess larva and not enough minerals to use them. Actually this isn't so bad it just means you don't need nearly as many queens as quickly and a single queen could [missing]


  2. Will you make the 7m and 6m maps available on EU? That would be greatly appreciated.


✉ Tweets @sc2channel ⌦ Blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/JOJO ⌫ "Arbiterssss... build more arbiterssss." Click 'Profile' for awesome shiro art!
Cirqueenflex
Profile Joined October 2010
499 Posts
March 16 2012 21:33 GMT
#229
i think this approach is great, i would even go so far as to prefer 6m1richgas (and 5-6m1g expansions with minerals only expansions in there as well). I still don't know though how strong reaper/banshee/voidrays etc become when you are forced to spread out on more than 3-4 bases early on. Also since playing BW i hate 2 gases in one base, it is bad design (since it binds 3 workers unnecessarily compared to one rich gas in BW) and it seems to screw zerg the most (worker loss)
Give a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
March 16 2012 21:34 GMT
#230
On March 17 2012 06:32 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This is such an interesting concept.
It doesn't feel right to respond without putting a bit more thought into the response. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this.

Before I really think this through and try to respond 2 quick things:
  1. I just want to point out that there is a little bit of a sentence missing in the examples section right under the Devolution Map Spoiler:

    Example 1: Inject larva is very strong on 6m maps leading to many excess larva and not enough minerals to use them. Actually this isn't so bad it just means you don't need nearly as many queens as quickly and a single queen could [missing]


  2. Will you make the 7m and 6m maps available on EU? That would be greatly appreciated.



I'm guessing "Example 1" might end with something like "a single queen could suffice" or "work" , ... based on the context of the sentence
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
hiro protagonist
Profile Joined January 2009
1294 Posts
March 16 2012 21:34 GMT
#231
After trying them all out, I think I like the 6m1hyg the best. But I only have tried with zerg so far, and that's only a gut feel, not anything based on statistical facts ... this is gonna suck up alot of my free time :D
"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk
eNjiin
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany27 Posts
March 16 2012 21:35 GMT
#232
It is like a scientist paper - imao ^^
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
March 16 2012 21:36 GMT
#233
If you're going to have everyone relearn how to play the entire game, wouldn't it be wiser to go straight to six mineral patches per base, rather than force it once to seven, and again for six?
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
leecH
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany385 Posts
March 16 2012 21:36 GMT
#234
i didnt understand all of it but i understand enough that i am certain blizzard should pay this guy for doing their work.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
March 16 2012 21:36 GMT
#235
On March 17 2012 06:28 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 06:04 bgx wrote:
On March 17 2012 05:50 Grumbels wrote:
I think this is a bit of an arbitrary fix. Why not argue for reducing the number of minerals per patch or making the increase of income per worker less linear?

Didnt you read the article? The actual "side effects" of cutting 1-2 minerals are mostly intriguing and appealing (less worker saturation and its benefit to varying the gameplay). The whole article is not about that we need lets say 20% cut to the economy.

I don't see anything in the article that's a convincing argument for reducing mineral patches. There's a bunch of analysis about problems the game has, but I don't buy the argument that this fix will help - and in fact there are more obvious solutions that are overlooked in the article.

There are a whole bunch of variables to tweak here, # of mineral patches is only one, and it's completely untested what effect changing it will have. For all we know reducing income makes rushes more powerful (rush distance stays the same while gaining minerals for economy infrastructure takes longer). And the game needs to be rebalanced around this anyway, so it's actually possible to question all variables. For instance, the relative cost of tech, production facilities, supply, army, economy, max supply could all be subject to change - as it's not clear at all why the current ratios are necessarily any good, outside of the fact we have a functioning game. However that's probably not going to happen, as the game would have to change so much then.


Grumbels seems to not realize that user manipulation is very limited, and thus what he is saying is completely non-material. Only Blizzard can change the things you stated. What point would it be to argue over things we have no control over? We can change mineral patches. The change will improve the game play over all. Is it the optimal solution? No. Is it better than what we have now? Yes.
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
Schplyok
Profile Joined June 2010
64 Posts
March 16 2012 21:36 GMT
#236
On March 17 2012 02:33 Barrin wrote:
This equilibrium, I believe, has been fundamentally broken (on purpose) by Blizzard.


You are giving them too much credit. They couldn't have anticipated the results of their game design, in fact no one could have.
Leetley
Profile Joined October 2010
1796 Posts
March 16 2012 21:38 GMT
#237
Truly awesome job you have done, Barrin. Thank you for this great post! I really agree with your ideas and hope this way of thinking will be taken further and help SC2.
JOJOsc2news
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
3000 Posts
March 16 2012 21:40 GMT
#238
On March 17 2012 06:34 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 06:32 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This is such an interesting concept.
It doesn't feel right to respond without putting a bit more thought into the response. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this.

Before I really think this through and try to respond 2 quick things:
  1. I just want to point out that there is a little bit of a sentence missing in the examples section right under the Devolution Map Spoiler:

    Example 1: Inject larva is very strong on 6m maps leading to many excess larva and not enough minerals to use them. Actually this isn't so bad it just means you don't need nearly as many queens as quickly and a single queen could [missing]


  2. Will you make the 7m and 6m maps available on EU? That would be greatly appreciated.



I'm guessing "Example 1" might end with something like "a single queen could suffice" or "work" , ... based on the context of the sentence


I agree. The context is quite clear and it is not a big issue. I just wanted to let the OP know.
✉ Tweets @sc2channel ⌦ Blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/JOJO ⌫ "Arbiterssss... build more arbiterssss." Click 'Profile' for awesome shiro art!
Rolezn
Profile Joined May 2010
63 Posts
March 16 2012 21:40 GMT
#239
Very good read, and I'm totally in favor of the idea of reducing the number of resources per base.
It might be a huge impact in the way we all play now, but it will have a great significant play in the future by having amazing games.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 16 2012 21:41 GMT
#240
I think with the expansions coming out, there is a good possibilty of this going through. If done right now it would very very likely screw up balance, so the expansions are a perfect moment to do something like this.

All in all, i think such changes should at least be tried as they have a very, very good shot at improving the game by a ton.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
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