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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 20:32 ShinobiX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:19 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:14 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:11 silentsod wrote:On March 09 2012 20:07 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:06 Pipeline wrote:
Good decision on EG's part. Nothing frustrates me more than when young (and sometimes idiotic) people take words in their mouth which they have no idea how powerful they are. Words like n----r and f----t are unfortunately used very frequently over the internet by people who hide behind their screens. I do hope, that people (mostly of the younger generations) starts using the simple concept of "Think before you act" not just face to face, but over the internet as well.
These words have power because you consider them to have so. Personally I don't care. For me, the meaning have changed. Don't live in the past, boy! Ignoring the present day reality of American social norms doesn't exactly make your personal apathy poignant. If everyone accepted and went along with the norm, nothing could ever change for the better. Soooo, discriminating people or accepting derogative insults to a whole ethnic group is a good thing? Gee, don't you wish you had lived a few years earlier in a different country... What isn't a good thing, as a few people have already mentioned in this thread, is giving what you consider to be derogatory words power. No one would use the word "nigger" if people stopped letting it get to them, but instead people just feed the trolls and let the Streisand Effect run rampant. What happens is that people like Orb pick up on the next best thing and we'd have the same discussion then.
That would happen even if you banned the word from ever being spoken. I like to think that by letting people tire themselves out on the word at least lets them learn for themselves what the word means, as opposed to forcing them to never speak it. It's better to let someone learn a lesson by getting hurt than to force them to live in a protective bubble.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 20:33 Cypher_Brood wrote:This is insane. Just...crazy. All of it. I am almost ashamed to be a part of a community that will stir up drama at any given chance. This is just fucking ridiculous. I'm not talking about EG's decision to fire orb. That was their decision to make and theirs alone. But what is just aggravating is that some people with what seems like literally nothing to do go and preform their own little witch hunt to satisfy some immature silly need to make themselves seem better than someone else. The N-word makes me uncomfortable because of what it represents and I don't agree with anyone using it. But its not my place to stop them from saying what they please if its not infringing on any of my rights. So some guy says a racist slur on his stream while playing a game of Starcraft and suddenly the lynch mob of keyboard warriors decide to take it upon themselves to correct this grave injustice. Jesus fucking christ people. I just don't even know what to say. And people actually complained to EG's sponsors because of this? That's something else. I don't even have words. This is just disappointing. I'm actually pretty sad because of this. All of this. Every time I go onto team liquid, there's some more silly, inconsequential drama being stirred up for no good reason. + Show Spoiler +This is more of a personal rant that has a bit to do with whats going on:
I guess its not just teamliquid.net. Its in the news. online. pretty much everywhere. People consuming stupid fucking drama that means nothing to them just so they can distract themselves from whatever is really bothering them or so that they can feel insulted or can say "well atleast I'm not as bad as that person." I forgot who said it, but deep down people want to be offended so they can act indignant and persecuted and not feel like in the end, they probably don't matter. I can only conclude that I'm one of those people. I'm in this thread after all. Fuck.
You got it, man. I liked your personal rant, because I feel the same. People in today's age are hanging themselves up over too much shit. I guess that's what happens when you have the explosion of information that is the internet. People can't cope with it.
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On March 09 2012 20:33 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
I really don't see how using the n-word is worse than the other statements that Orb pulls all the time, such as:
"All he knows is one build that's all he can do of every single game of every single matchup cuz he's a fucking waste of human life, and a waste of human resources on this planet and he honestly deserves to be dead, like I mean that 100% percent sincerely. I often joke around about this kinda stuff but, um, I would actually be much happier if that guy were just killed in preferably the most painful way possible to be honest. I'm not even sadistic, in fact pain in others usually brings me pain, personally, but not at people like that, people like that I would love to just watch that guy burn, like honestly just be in the most amount of pain for hours and hours. I would revel in that."
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word. Where exactly did you get this from? This needs a source. If orb has in fact said that I think he deserves all the shit that's coming his way but given what we know is true (raging in random games, dropping N word) I think people are overreacting a lot.
It's a direct quote from 2:42:00 of his stream, http://www.twitch.tv/orbtl/b/310153978
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On March 09 2012 20:33 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:29 Defacer wrote:
People might say, "Oh, he was raging," or "That was a year ago" but it's hard to imagine an employer saying, "Calling someone you despise a nigger isn't really racist ... It's just an insult ... because it implies you are black ... and black people are inferior ... DOH!" This is a linguistic fallacy. It's like saying Don Juan was a rake because he cleaned up all the leaves from my yard.
If nigger didn't inherently imply Black inferiority, why would Orb use it as in insult?
Egggggssssssxactly. In the context that Orb used it, it is indeed offensive.
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very tough decision. Yours to make.
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Another career ruined by this constant desire for witch hunts in this community, what the fuck guys? This isn't just Reddit anymore, why must there be another drama each week? What is so wrong with the sc2 community that it needs to burn at the stake people that dare to step up and happen to make a mistake? I agree that Orb shouldn't have acted this way but come on... overreaction much?
So disappointed right now.
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On March 09 2012 20:37 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:33 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 20:29 Defacer wrote:
People might say, "Oh, he was raging," or "That was a year ago" but it's hard to imagine an employer saying, "Calling someone you despise a nigger isn't really racist ... It's just an insult ... because it implies you are black ... and black people are inferior ... DOH!" This is a linguistic fallacy. It's like saying Don Juan was a rake because he cleaned up all the leaves from my yard. If nigger didn't inherently imply Black inferiority, why would Orb use it as in insult? Egggggssssssxactly. In the context that Orb used it, it is indeed offensive.
Maybe Orb thought nigger meant a pie that had gone rotten. No one wants to be called a rotten pie.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On March 09 2012 20:23 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:22 AnalThermometer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:01 schI2ler wrote:
I am dissappointed by EG.
I am dissappointed by reddit.
I am dissappointed by the starcraft 2 community.
You did it. You did it again.
Your love of the drama, your "power" to hate, managed to destroy a career, once again.
While you sit at home and live your private lives, you want to be entertained. Let the gladiators of the public scene enter the arena and entertain us. And when we feel like ending there presence, we'll just hype the drama till the gladiator is dead.
Now please enter the next gladiator.
And what does the company do? they drop the gladiator. We don't need you, we won't fight for you, we won't help you. Next gladiator for the masses please!
On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:46 Zeevo wrote:
Complete and utter disgust for the starcraft community. Who else's careers are you going to destroy? Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. I find it amazing the lengths people want to go to avoid "drama". Let the players and casters call people all kinds of slurs - just as long as we don't pick them up on it because it might cause DRAMA>?!? "Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain" <- I mean, what? The SC2 community improves its reputation by excluding people who throw around racist terms. To be taken seriously the community needs to meet certain standards which includes not calling people niggers. If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
The most honest of men would have stripped himself of his ego and see each person on their merits, as equals. He wouldn't need to ever use the term nigger. Are black people who dislike orb using "nigger" appealing for a less honest society? You are attempting to intellectualize racism, please don't do it.
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On March 09 2012 20:36 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:34 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:29 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:26 Hypemeup wrote:
Damn shame. But I guess EG dont really have any other options after Orb lied in public and people complained to the EG sponsors :| They could have so guts and stick to their OWN choice to hire him! Have some principles and defend their people, not just their money. Its much like the Stephano incident. We hire him. Few days laters, Oh we didn't know, we don't like that. Bye! No consequences, we have the money. Stephano has to give some money to compensate the fact that col thought them has him for a few hours. Did it ever occur to you that Alex actually might find the word offensive and it's use not worth defending? If anything, he has STRONGER principles to fire him than if he were to keep him. Giving Orb a slap on the wrist would have been a cop-out and just reinforced EG's image as BM ragers. There would have been a backlash whether he kept him or not. And this is nothing like Stephano's situation where he SCREWED over complexity. So he decided to put his PERSONAL principle before the PROFESSIONAL ones by not defending an employee. It's not professional, let's get him fired. Wtf...
Professional principles would have him firing orb all the same. This man has been personally working on keeping IdrA's behavior in check because being associated with someone using racial or homophobic slurs is bad for business.
It happens to also be the case that it's considered bad behavior in society, and even worse (it seems) in Alex's personal opinion.
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Thank you for that Alex. It is comforting to know that the Starcraft 2 community still has a sense of integrity and civility.
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On March 09 2012 20:32 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:
[quote]
Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG. lol. I can give you countless examples of friends of mine who went to oxbridge who use the word nigger regularly. It's not bigoted. It is part of a lot of peoples general vocabulary and doesn't have any racist meaning behind it. It can even be a term of endearment. So have you never used the words rape, retarded, faggot or gay? Because if you have..... in your world.. you are a bigot.
unfortunately when i was a child i used the word gay regularly and retarded semi regularly but i dont use rape, faggot or gay any more. About rape and retarded they are in no way the same as in Nigger, gay and Faggot, now i dont want to defend rape because it is undefendable but i will say it is not used to put down a minority and only connotations is that it is obviously a horrible experience to be raped. Nigger, gay and faggot if used as an insult insinuate that being black or being gay is a bad thing which is called racism and homophobia which is completely biggoted, if you say that it has no meaning behind it then you are clearly a complete moron.
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On March 09 2012 20:38 Tuthur wrote:
Another career ruined by this constant desire for witch hunts in this community, what the fuck guys? This isn't just Reddit anymore, why must there be another drama each week? What is so wrong with the sc2 community that it needs to burn at the stake people that dare to step up and happen to make a mistake? I agree that Orb shouldn't have acted this way but come on... overreaction much?
So disappointed right now.
+1
I hate the community for doing things like this.
Sponsors want to please all these kids with the power of the Internet. Is a shame. I feel so sorry for orb. So sorry.
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84 pages already. Jeez...
While I agree that Orb probably should not have done what he did, there's a big cultural difference here between myself and you, Alexander. I sincerely disagree with demonizing certain words, as they're part of the language now, and their meaning can change, and - to some extent - has changed. If I write out the word "nigger", I don't mean it as anything offensive, or racist. I believe that instead of black people claiming that it's "their word", and raging on any non-black person using it, they should just stop caring about people using the word, and care more about what people mean and are saying with it.
The word is never the offense, it's the meaning behind it. It's not very hard to tell whether a person means harm or not - It might be in writing, but not when you actually hear them speak/speak to and with them. Demonizing words just further adds to the stigma that anyone using a specific word is a racist.
I for one laugh my ass off everytime I watch "Don't be a menace..", and the Wayans bro's enter the Asian market, and the bell goes "Niiiiiggeeeeer". Does that make me racist, or am I wrong in laughing? - I think not.
I do agree with your decision, given that Orb's meaning with the word was very clearly inflammatory, and he really did not need to do that. He should eventually be forgiven, especially if he changes his attitude and behaviour in general.
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On March 09 2012 20:38 Tuthur wrote: I agree that Orb shouldn't have acted this way but come on... overreaction much?
Remember that a big part of the issue is that he stated falsely, to EG, that it wasn't him saying those things as recently as a couple days ago.
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[QUOTE]On March 09 2012 20:29 Defacer wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word.[/QUd OTE]
I agree, using the word nigger specifically as an insult is a kiss of death.
Not many people are going to come out of the woodworks to defend you.
People might say, "Oh, he was raging," or "That was a year ago" but it's hard to imagine an employer saying, "Calling someone you despise a nigger isn't really racist ... It's just an insult ... because it implies you are black ... and black people are inferior ... DOH!"[/QUOTE]
This is also how i think ... Calling white people Nigger is like saying that black people are inferior , thats racism , there is nothing more wrong than judging people by their color or their wealth . I think EG is doing the right thing .
On ladder i insulted players , but i never called anyone a nigger , thats like insulting the guy who im playing and all the black people in the world .. I see other players calling others N#### , and im on Europe ,but is wrong and someone who streams or at least is serious about this game should not say it , NEVER.
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On March 09 2012 20:37 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:33 dani` wrote:On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
I really don't see how using the n-word is worse than the other statements that Orb pulls all the time, such as:
"All he knows is one build that's all he can do of every single game of every single matchup cuz he's a fucking waste of human life, and a waste of human resources on this planet and he honestly deserves to be dead, like I mean that 100% percent sincerely. I often joke around about this kinda stuff but, um, I would actually be much happier if that guy were just killed in preferably the most painful way possible to be honest. I'm not even sadistic, in fact pain in others usually brings me pain, personally, but not at people like that, people like that I would love to just watch that guy burn, like honestly just be in the most amount of pain for hours and hours. I would revel in that."
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word. Where exactly did you get this from? This needs a source. If orb has in fact said that I think he deserves all the shit that's coming his way but given what we know is true (raging in random games, dropping N word) I think people are overreacting a lot. It's a direct quote from 2:42:00 of his stream, http://www.twitch.tv/orbtl/b/310153978
That link redirects me to his /videos. Was that broadcast perhaps removed then :x?
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On March 09 2012 20:41 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:38 Tuthur wrote:
Another career ruined by this constant desire for witch hunts in this community, what the fuck guys? This isn't just Reddit anymore, why must there be another drama each week? What is so wrong with the sc2 community that it needs to burn at the stake people that dare to step up and happen to make a mistake? I agree that Orb shouldn't have acted this way but come on... overreaction much?
So disappointed right now. +1 I hate the community for doing things like this. Sponsors want to please all these kids with the power of the Internet. Is a shame. I feel so sorry for orb. So sorry.
Is it too much to ask someone in a proffesional job who I assume is getting paid to not be a biggot and then lie to their employer about it? If people want esports to be taken seriously public esports figures have to be treated like any other public figure. It was hardly a witch hunt orb dug his own grave when he lied about it.
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On March 09 2012 20:36 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:32 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:19 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:14 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:11 silentsod wrote:On March 09 2012 20:07 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:06 Pipeline wrote:
Good decision on EG's part. Nothing frustrates me more than when young (and sometimes idiotic) people take words in their mouth which they have no idea how powerful they are. Words like n----r and f----t are unfortunately used very frequently over the internet by people who hide behind their screens. I do hope, that people (mostly of the younger generations) starts using the simple concept of "Think before you act" not just face to face, but over the internet as well.
These words have power because you consider them to have so. Personally I don't care. For me, the meaning have changed. Don't live in the past, boy! Ignoring the present day reality of American social norms doesn't exactly make your personal apathy poignant. If everyone accepted and went along with the norm, nothing could ever change for the better. Soooo, discriminating people or accepting derogative insults to a whole ethnic group is a good thing? Gee, don't you wish you had lived a few years earlier in a different country... What isn't a good thing, as a few people have already mentioned in this thread, is giving what you consider to be derogatory words power. No one would use the word "nigger" if people stopped letting it get to them, but instead people just feed the trolls and let the Streisand Effect run rampant. What happens is that people like Orb pick up on the next best thing and we'd have the same discussion then. That would happen even if you banned the word from ever being spoken. I like to think that by letting people tire themselves out on the word at least lets them learn for themselves what the word means, as opposed to forcing them to never speak it. It's better to let someone learn a lesson by getting hurt than to force them to live in a protective bubble.
You assume that people like Orb are not ignorant stupid fucks who are never going to learn? I mean look at the dude, he's some skinny white guy using the word Nigger like he's a high rolling gangsta rapper (that I still think he likes to be  ). People like him are going to use the word nigger as long as black rappers and movie stars are using the word nigger. Not to insult, but to imitate. As I said before, I presume it was an offhand remark without too much thought behind it. Replace Nigger with Douchebag and his phrasing would still make sense in the context. Of course, you'd have to find some "cool dude" in a movie using the word douchebag a lot to find copycats. 
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On March 09 2012 20:39 AnalThermometer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:23 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 AnalThermometer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:01 schI2ler wrote:
I am dissappointed by EG.
I am dissappointed by reddit.
I am dissappointed by the starcraft 2 community.
You did it. You did it again.
Your love of the drama, your "power" to hate, managed to destroy a career, once again.
While you sit at home and live your private lives, you want to be entertained. Let the gladiators of the public scene enter the arena and entertain us. And when we feel like ending there presence, we'll just hype the drama till the gladiator is dead.
Now please enter the next gladiator.
And what does the company do? they drop the gladiator. We don't need you, we won't fight for you, we won't help you. Next gladiator for the masses please!
On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:46 Zeevo wrote:
Complete and utter disgust for the starcraft community. Who else's careers are you going to destroy? Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. I find it amazing the lengths people want to go to avoid "drama". Let the players and casters call people all kinds of slurs - just as long as we don't pick them up on it because it might cause DRAMA>?!? "Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain" <- I mean, what? The SC2 community improves its reputation by excluding people who throw around racist terms. To be taken seriously the community needs to meet certain standards which includes not calling people niggers. If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. The most honest of men would have stripped himself of his ego and see each person on their merits, as equals. He wouldn't need to ever use the term nigger. Are black people who dislike orb using "nigger" appealing for a less honest society? You are attempting to intellectualize racism, please don't do it.
Equating racism with a frustrated guy blurting out a word on the ladder belittles actual discrimination and injustices while at the same time putting restrictions on what other people can say, which is frankly none of our business.
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EPT
