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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 20:46 Bashion wrote:
Like someone posted on reddit. Before Orb joined EG, everyone knew his behavior, everyone knew his name calling, but no one ever made a big deal out of it. Then, a bunch of jealous people decided it would be nice to entertain themselves while getting someone fired.
This issue isn't about jealousy. I'd certainly have complained to EG over this, and before all this happened I had no clue whom Orb even was. Of course, as I said before, I don't think that it would have resulted in his termination if he'd been honest about the issue with them, and everyone.
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On March 09 2012 20:40 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:32 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:
[quote]
I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG. lol. I can give you countless examples of friends of mine who went to oxbridge who use the word nigger regularly. It's not bigoted. It is part of a lot of peoples general vocabulary and doesn't have any racist meaning behind it. It can even be a term of endearment. So have you never used the words rape, retarded, faggot or gay? Because if you have..... in your world.. you are a bigot. unfortunately when i was a child i used the word gay regularly and retarded semi regularly but i dont use rape, faggot or gay any more. About rape and retarded they are in no way the same as in Nigger, gay and Faggot, now i dont want to defend rape because it is undefendable but i will say it is not used to put down a minority and only connotations is that it is obviously a horrible experience to be raped. Nigger, gay and faggot if used as an insult insinuate that being black or being gay is a bad thing which is called racism and homophobia which is completely biggoted, if you say that it has no meaning behind it then you are clearly a complete moron.
Oh i get it. It's fine for you and Idra to of used such words in the past, but not orb.
Ok.
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On March 09 2012 20:52 Merlimoo wrote:
Yep grown-up and big people are pessimist and fatalist.
Go say that to the people at Occupy Wall Street, the arabs who launch a revolution, the people who fight finance abuses.
I can return the compliment to you.
You need to grow up and stop being told what to think.
You're going to equate using a racial slur vs. another player on SC2's ladder with social protest? Seriously?
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On March 09 2012 20:58 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:55 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:52 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:50 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:31 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:27 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Talin wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards But they don't have double standards. This isn't about freaking racism or any other kind of -ism. Those are not the standards. What sponsors like or dislike are the standards. Idra's image works for them and contributes to the attention EG gets them, they profit from it. Orb's resurfaced rage screenshot and the attention it got made them uncomfortable. Enjoy mainstream Starcraft in all its glory. Exactly. Well said, Good Sir. That is the actual state of the business, whether anyone want it or not. Any discussion if it is bad or good is utterly pointless, because it wont change anything, ever. Deal with it. I don't want sponsor that corrupt my community. Witch-hunt the people using them. Stop thinking that the world is what is it. If you think that way, why try to fight false racism in the first place ? You need to grow up. Yep grown-up and big people are pessimist and fatalist. Go say that to the people at Occupy Wall Street, the arabs who launch a revolution, the people who fight finance abuses. I can return the compliment to you. You need to grow up and stop being told what to think. Comparing immaturity of the single individual to revolutionists fighting for their beliefs? Define immaturity then and prove its label on me. Or stfu for ever, plz.
Your post and you did it yourself....
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On March 09 2012 20:52 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:50 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:31 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:27 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Talin wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards But they don't have double standards. This isn't about freaking racism or any other kind of -ism. Those are not the standards. What sponsors like or dislike are the standards. Idra's image works for them and contributes to the attention EG gets them, they profit from it. Orb's resurfaced rage screenshot and the attention it got made them uncomfortable. Enjoy mainstream Starcraft in all its glory. Exactly. Well said, Good Sir. That is the actual state of the business, whether anyone want it or not. Any discussion if it is bad or good is utterly pointless, because it wont change anything, ever. Deal with it. I don't want sponsor that corrupt my community. Witch-hunt the people using them. Stop thinking that the world is what is it. If you think that way, why try to fight false racism in the first place ? You need to grow up. Yep grown-up and big people are pessimist and fatalist. Go say that to the people at Occupy Wall Street, the arabs who launch a revolution, the people who fight finance abuses. I can return the compliment to you. You need to grow up and stop being told what to think.
Please dont go on a strike, i need to take the tube going home tonight :D
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On March 09 2012 20:56 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:40 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 20:32 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:
[quote]
Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG. lol. I can give you countless examples of friends of mine who went to oxbridge who use the word nigger regularly. It's not bigoted. It is part of a lot of peoples general vocabulary and doesn't have any racist meaning behind it. It can even be a term of endearment. So have you never used the words rape, retarded, faggot or gay? Because if you have..... in your world.. you are a bigot. unfortunately when i was a child i used the word gay regularly and retarded semi regularly but i dont use rape, faggot or gay any more. About rape and retarded they are in no way the same as in Nigger, gay and Faggot, now i dont want to defend rape because it is undefendable but i will say it is not used to put down a minority and only connotations is that it is obviously a horrible experience to be raped. Nigger, gay and faggot if used as an insult insinuate that being black or being gay is a bad thing which is called racism and homophobia which is completely biggoted, if you say that it has no meaning behind it then you are clearly a complete moron. Oh i get it. It's fine for you and Idra to of used such words in the past, but not orb. Ok.
Where in hell did i say that, its unacceptable for idra to use those words but idra is worth more than orb is to EG and i think even as a gay person who wants to fight homophobia i cant expect a huge individual for EG like idra to be fired, i have to accept reality to an extent there, but i haven't heard him say any homophobic or racist language lately, but if he does then i will post/tweet or w/e to say its unacceptable.
EDIT: And about me using it in the past i was like 6 years old i didnt know what gay ment or that there were even gay people in the world i just thought it was another insult, plus im gay now so im allowed to use it 
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On March 09 2012 20:58 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:55 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:52 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:50 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:31 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:27 Czarnodziej wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Talin wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards But they don't have double standards. This isn't about freaking racism or any other kind of -ism. Those are not the standards. What sponsors like or dislike are the standards. Idra's image works for them and contributes to the attention EG gets them, they profit from it. Orb's resurfaced rage screenshot and the attention it got made them uncomfortable. Enjoy mainstream Starcraft in all its glory. Exactly. Well said, Good Sir. That is the actual state of the business, whether anyone want it or not. Any discussion if it is bad or good is utterly pointless, because it wont change anything, ever. Deal with it. I don't want sponsor that corrupt my community. Witch-hunt the people using them. Stop thinking that the world is what is it. If you think that way, why try to fight false racism in the first place ? You need to grow up. Yep grown-up and big people are pessimist and fatalist. Go say that to the people at Occupy Wall Street, the arabs who launch a revolution, the people who fight finance abuses. I can return the compliment to you. You need to grow up and stop being told what to think. Comparing immaturity of the single individual to revolutionists fighting for their beliefs? Define immaturity then and prove its label on me. Or stfu for ever, plz.
I was comparing case shown here (orb drama) to case of the revolutionists.
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On March 09 2012 20:56 kobrakai wrote:
Oh i get it. It's fine for you and Idra to of used such words in the past, but not orb.
It might have been a very different situation if, when asked, he said "yes, I said this," and dealt with it, rather than making up a story about sharing his account.
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This is great! I think that the community has a bit of cleaning up to do in order to become more mainstream and attract more sponsors. One step in that direction is to ensure that those front-line persons that in many ways represent the community can behave themselves and act properly when publishing material (such as streams, posts on public forums, etc.). Those that cannot restrain themselves need to be replaced. There is a lot of talent out there and there is no need to compromise on this.
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I agree with the guys that say he is not racist ... The problem is that in your great country , you used BLACK slaves against their will and USA even had a civil war because of slavery !
Everyone should know in the XXI century that Racial Insults or worshiping Hitler publicly is calling for the ban hammer
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I think its a huge overeaction. It seems to me that EG caved in to the vocal minority in regards to this decision.
It feel like a witch hunt organised by our drama queen comminity that constantly grave for drama and internet blood.
And it boggles my mind how EG can punish Orb for something he did when he wasnt even in EG and considering you business model is made around a player who BM and insult everyone. I would have expected that EG acted like adults and thoughtfull instead of going full retard.
Dont get me wrong I dont approve of the words Orb used and ofcourse racisme got no place in the sc2 community. But this is clearly not racisme but more of a young adult raging and using the wrong words.
But I guess Orb learned it the hard way to bad the drama community graved so much for blood it had to ruined another career
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It's things like these that make you realize how young the majority of the community is.
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On March 09 2012 20:47 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:43 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:36 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:32 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:19 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:14 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:11 silentsod wrote:On March 09 2012 20:07 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:06 Pipeline wrote:
Good decision on EG's part. Nothing frustrates me more than when young (and sometimes idiotic) people take words in their mouth which they have no idea how powerful they are. Words like n----r and f----t are unfortunately used very frequently over the internet by people who hide behind their screens. I do hope, that people (mostly of the younger generations) starts using the simple concept of "Think before you act" not just face to face, but over the internet as well.
These words have power because you consider them to have so. Personally I don't care. For me, the meaning have changed. Don't live in the past, boy! Ignoring the present day reality of American social norms doesn't exactly make your personal apathy poignant. If everyone accepted and went along with the norm, nothing could ever change for the better. Soooo, discriminating people or accepting derogative insults to a whole ethnic group is a good thing? Gee, don't you wish you had lived a few years earlier in a different country... What isn't a good thing, as a few people have already mentioned in this thread, is giving what you consider to be derogatory words power. No one would use the word "nigger" if people stopped letting it get to them, but instead people just feed the trolls and let the Streisand Effect run rampant. What happens is that people like Orb pick up on the next best thing and we'd have the same discussion then. That would happen even if you banned the word from ever being spoken. I like to think that by letting people tire themselves out on the word at least lets them learn for themselves what the word means, as opposed to forcing them to never speak it. It's better to let someone learn a lesson by getting hurt than to force them to live in a protective bubble. You assume that people like Orb are not ignorant stupid fucks who are never going to learn? I mean look at the dude, he's some skinny white guy using the word Nigger like he's a high rolling gangsta rapper (that I still think he likes to be  ). People like him are going to use the word nigger as long as black rappers and movie stars are using the word nigger. Not to insult, but to imitate. As I said before, I presume it was an offhand remark without too much thought behind it. Replace Nigger with Douchebag and his phrasing would still make sense in the context. Of course, you'd have to find some "cool dude" in a movie using the word douchebag a lot to find copycats.  This is an ironic post, yes? I mean, you can't seriously be decrying words you claim to be derogatory racial slurs then turn around and derogatorially refer to Orb as a "skinny white guy".
I can do whatever the hell pleases me. And more to the point, I can call him a skinny white guy because a) that's a description of appearance, he is skinny, and he is white (I have no qualms talking about black people, btw... that is where political correctness goes into the crazy region IMO ) and b) I was making a point. The point being that people like Orb are being fucking stupid. White guys using "Nigger" in the same context as - say - Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction is so ridiculous on the comic side, that you have to feel offended on various levels. Either he is a racist, which I hope he's not. Or he's not thinking about the implications, which I rather think is the case here. That black dude speaking to Destiny about how it's ok for him to say "Nigger"? I love him for being so cool about it, and I pity Destiny for the comic figure that makes him. Whenever a white guy says that word, I have this strong feeling he wants to be black inside. "Please, let me be part of your culture, I like you guys so much, you are so cool." :D
I am afraid right now I can't make much more sense. It's a lot of different thoughts going into a subject like this and I am not a hundred percent either here nor there. What I am certain about, though, is that you won't achieve your goal by downplaying the significance of the word, because people like Orb and Destiny are too dumb to actually use it for its racist meaning. They don't know or don't give a fuck about that. They use it, because it's used in movies and rap tunes a lot. That's it.
If they claim anything else, they indeed deserve to be dismissed and burned at the stakes, tho.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the decision. At the same time I have little understanding for comments from the likes of DJwheat about kicking someone who's down in the balls, I really dont.
Look, I get it! I've got a decent job but I certainly don't love it. Amongst other things I do love gaming, and Starcraft in particular. If I imagine I'd lose a dream job like over a dumb BM on ladder I'd probably hate myself forever. But then again, it would have been my own grave that I would have had dugged out. Besides, calling someone a n____ is not mere "BM". I pretty much share Alex' point of view on it. And the fact alone that Alex feels any sort of obligation to justify and / or explain the decision is utterly beyond me.
For every sentient beeing it should be 100% obvious why this guy cannot possibly work for an organisation like EG. The whole drama pretty much proves Alex point. Racism is a huge issue and, besides most the notes that are being left in this thread, I don't think that the SC "community" is so much more mature than the back in the days CS one. I just need to have a look at the snakepit that is reddit to affirm this suspicion of mine.
And I also agree that people should stop to calling each other f____t. I'm very well aware of how easy it comes over your lips and how "right" and "funny" it can feel. I am definitely guilty of it myself, even though I've got a brother whom I love greatly who happens to be gay. So yes, I am well aware of the double moral that is at hand. It was a decision I made a while ago to not accept it anymore, neither from myself nor from my friends. Homophobia is just as bad as "racism" and it shouldnt be tolerated much longer in such an open venue as Starcraft.
Also and ultimately it comes down to how we treat people on the internet in general. This occurance merely proves that everything you say and do online can come back and bite you in the ass someday. And yes, even though I can very well understand how shitty this whole situation must be like for Orb, I'm happy that it finally caught someone.
At this point I hear reddit bloating something degenerated like "uuhh you're just jelly and spiteful". Something about how I didn't like him and I'm just begrudging his success, how I have a shit job ect ect. But no, thats not it. This is an example that may just be loud and clear enough to get some people to their senses, and for that I like it a lot.
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On March 09 2012 21:01 tapk69 wrote:
I agree with the guys that say he is not racist ... The problem is that in your great country , you used BLACK slaves against their will and USA even had a civil war because of slavery !
Everyone should know in the XXI century that Racial Insults or worshiping Hitler publicly is calling for the ban hammer
That's all in the past, people alive nowadays aren't responsible for any of it, so I don't see why they should be made to feel guilty.
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On March 09 2012 20:42 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:37 Paladia wrote:On March 09 2012 20:33 dani` wrote:On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
I really don't see how using the n-word is worse than the other statements that Orb pulls all the time, such as:
"All he knows is one build that's all he can do of every single game of every single matchup cuz he's a fucking waste of human life, and a waste of human resources on this planet and he honestly deserves to be dead, like I mean that 100% percent sincerely. I often joke around about this kinda stuff but, um, I would actually be much happier if that guy were just killed in preferably the most painful way possible to be honest. I'm not even sadistic, in fact pain in others usually brings me pain, personally, but not at people like that, people like that I would love to just watch that guy burn, like honestly just be in the most amount of pain for hours and hours. I would revel in that."
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word. Where exactly did you get this from? This needs a source. If orb has in fact said that I think he deserves all the shit that's coming his way but given what we know is true (raging in random games, dropping N word) I think people are overreacting a lot. It's a direct quote from 2:42:00 of his stream, http://www.twitch.tv/orbtl/b/310153978 That link redirects me to his /videos. Was that broadcast perhaps removed then :x?
Yes, unfortunately Orb removed it once the controversy started.
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Wow this makes me love EG even more, Alexander Garfield really handled the situation well and it is really awesome to see that E-Sports and SC2 in particular is rising and becoming so big. Let this be a lesson for everyone trying to go pro while playing or casting, your history will haunt you so think twice before saying or doing anything
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On March 09 2012 20:56 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:54 Ballistixz wrote:
whats really sad about all of this aswell is that orb had GREAT casting skills and the potential to get better. give him like a year or so in casting and he could have been one of the top casting archons IMO. the sad part is that potential will probally never come to fruition now because of a bunch of white knights feel the need burn someone alive for one mistake they did in there past. THAT is what is really killing Esports. the kid had talent as a caster, and you people take that away just because of something that happened over a year ago? like really?
this thread has honestly enrage me alot and i am on the virge of just leaving the community altogether. its sickening the lengths people will go to start drama just because of a silly word they dont like.
orb if you are reading this thread, which im sure you are, then dont beat yourself up over this. its just another example of how the community is stabbing themselves in the foot by starting stupid drama like this. people just cant let things go and its so fucking sad. why should we "let it go" i think the community did a good thing in the last couple of days, showing that racism and homophobia are completely unacceptable and hold our public figures to a higher standard of proffesionalism is a good thing in my opinion, i really dont understand how people can think its bad.
no they did not. the community did a ignorant thing. YOU DO NOT KNOW THE GUY. you just assumed he was racist because of one screen shot from over a year ago. i bet 90% of the ppl in this thread do not even watch orbs stream regularly. the guy isnt racist and he has said NUMEROUS times (well before EG even knew he existed) that he wasnt racist and said he has black friends.
that is why its bad. you people do not know the guy and just jump to conclusions and assumptions purely to start drama. so yes its bad, because you deemed someone as racist when they are not racist. you accused someone as being a witch and burned them at the stake when in fact they are not a witch. thats why people, like you, dissapoint me because all you can do is jump to assumptions and conclusions based on small facts. doesnt matter if you know the guy or not, he said a word you dont like and he deserves to burn for it. so sad and so very ignorant.
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Double post. 
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EPT
