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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word.
I agree, using the word nigger specifically as an insult is a kiss of death.
Not many people are going to come out of the woodworks to defend you.
People might say, "Oh, he was raging," or "That was a year ago" but it's hard to imagine an employer saying, "Calling someone you despise a nigger isn't really racist ... It's just an insult ... because it implies you are black ... and black people are inferior ... DOH!"
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Times are certainly changing, aren't they? Can't decide whether or not I like it.
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Necessary actions were taken and that's it. Looks like everyone has their dues to pay. I'm sorry for EG and orb, but I think it's a bit overboard for people to contact their sponsors immediately before hearing anyones side of the story first.
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Sad it had to come down to this....but still another professionally made post by Alex!
As for Orb......seems the past comes back to hunt him  so sry to see this happen to good casters to be honest. Punishment was to big in my opinion, but u can't blame EG for it. They took a heavy QQ beating at the point it hurts the most (their sponsors). It's logical they take sever actions to protect themselfs as an organization.
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On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:46 Zeevo wrote:
Complete and utter disgust for the starcraft community. Who else's careers are you going to destroy? Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG.
lol.
I can give you countless examples of friends of mine who went to oxbridge who use the word nigger regularly.
It's not bigoted. It is part of a lot of peoples general vocabulary and doesn't have any racist meaning behind it. It can even be a term of endearment.
So have you never used the words rape, retarded, faggot or gay?
Because if you have..... in your world.. you are a bigot.
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On March 09 2012 20:19 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:14 ShinobiX wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:11 silentsod wrote:On March 09 2012 20:07 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 20:06 Pipeline wrote:
Good decision on EG's part. Nothing frustrates me more than when young (and sometimes idiotic) people take words in their mouth which they have no idea how powerful they are. Words like n----r and f----t are unfortunately used very frequently over the internet by people who hide behind their screens. I do hope, that people (mostly of the younger generations) starts using the simple concept of "Think before you act" not just face to face, but over the internet as well.
These words have power because you consider them to have so. Personally I don't care. For me, the meaning have changed. Don't live in the past, boy! Ignoring the present day reality of American social norms doesn't exactly make your personal apathy poignant. If everyone accepted and went along with the norm, nothing could ever change for the better. Soooo, discriminating people or accepting derogative insults to a whole ethnic group is a good thing? Gee, don't you wish you had lived a few years earlier in a different country... What isn't a good thing, as a few people have already mentioned in this thread, is giving what you consider to be derogatory words power. No one would use the word "nigger" if people stopped letting it get to them, but instead people just feed the trolls and let the Streisand Effect run rampant.
I get where you are coming from. What I don't agree with is the method of achieving it. Your point of view sounds like legitimising the usage of such language in order to take the edge of it and let the interest drop. The point is, though, that this is ultimately not about the word Nigger. It's about the attitude that people perceive to be behind the usage of such a word. In a different dimension, he might have had the same reaction calling someone a pineapple. You find that ridiculous, the people in another dimension might not.
Let's assume you have success with your idea of not feeding the trolls. Nigger loses the "vogue insult" status. What happens is that people like Orb pick up on the next best thing and we'd have the same discussion then. In the end, the word itself should not matter, what seems to matter to the OP is the offhand manner in which he uses a word without reflecting on the implications with it. Along with the obvious repercussions to sponsorship and reputation etc.
In light of that, I find the rather detailed discussion about this word rather amusing. I think what needs to be adressed more specifically is the attitude with which the people approaching SC2 as a business handle themselves in the public eye. Some people in this thread have done that, but they get ignored by the more fun "Nigger" debate. Excuse my sarcasm, but that's what it's like. I'm only the messenger. People are posting here, because they are bored out of their minds. I'm certainly not going to debate this with my friends, they woulldn't give a flying fuck if some 20something kid used nigger in some obscure stream somewhere. :D
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This is insane. Just...crazy. All of it. I am almost ashamed to be a part of a community that will stir up drama at any given chance. This is just fucking ridiculous. I'm not talking about EG's decision to fire orb. That was their decision to make and theirs alone. But what is just aggravating is that some people with what seems like literally nothing to do go and preform their own little witch hunt to satisfy some immature silly need to make themselves seem better than someone else.
The N-word makes me uncomfortable because of what it represents and I don't agree with anyone using it. But its not my place to stop them from saying what they please if its not infringing on any of my rights. So some guy says a racist slur on his stream while playing a game of Starcraft and suddenly the lynch mob of keyboard warriors decide to take it upon themselves to correct this grave injustice. Jesus fucking christ people. I just don't even know what to say.
And people actually complained to EG's sponsors because of this? That's something else. I don't even have words. This is just disappointing. I'm actually pretty sad because of this. All of this. Every time I go onto team liquid, there's some more silly, inconsequential drama being stirred up for no good reason.
+ Show Spoiler +This is more of a personal rant that has a bit to do with whats going on:
I guess its not just teamliquid.net. Its in the news. online. pretty much everywhere. People consuming stupid fucking drama that means nothing to them just so they can distract themselves from whatever is really bothering them or so that they can feel insulted or can say "well atleast I'm not as bad as that person." I forgot who said it, but deep down people want to be offended so they can act indignant and persecuted and not feel like in the end, they probably don't matter. I can only conclude that I'm one of those people. I'm in this thread after all. Fuck.
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On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:46 Zeevo wrote:
Complete and utter disgust for the starcraft community. Who else's careers are you going to destroy? Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG.
Maybe I overstated when I wrote that "intelligent people don't use the word." That's not the point. The point is - if you believe that racism is a problem and you believe that using words like N----- and faggot are acceptable, then you are not helping. And, to people who feel strongly that racism is a serious issue, these things are offensive. I always call people out for using these words, I always stop supporting players - including IdrA (as brilliant an SC2 player I think he is - but its a game, not real life) and I support people in a position to punish people who act this way.
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On March 09 2012 20:32 ReboundEU wrote:Sad it had to come down to this....but still another professionally made post by Alex! As for Orb......seems the past comes back to hunt him so sry to see this happen to good casters to be honest.
Demagogic post.
I could also write a well written post, stating my high (and real) education as false argument, stating that this decision was BS and you'll like it.
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On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
I really don't see how using the n-word is worse than the other statements that Orb pulls all the time, such as:
"All he knows is one build that's all he can do of every single game of every single matchup cuz he's a fucking waste of human life, and a waste of human resources on this planet and he honestly deserves to be dead, like I mean that 100% percent sincerely. I often joke around about this kinda stuff but, um, I would actually be much happier if that guy were just killed in preferably the most painful way possible to be honest. I'm not even sadistic, in fact pain in others usually brings me pain, personally, but not at people like that, people like that I would love to just watch that guy burn, like honestly just be in the most amount of pain for hours and hours. I would revel in that."
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word.
Where exactly did you get this from? This needs a source. If orb has in fact said that I think he deserves all the shit that's coming his way but given what we know is true (raging in random games, dropping N word) I think people are overreacting a lot.
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On March 09 2012 19:59 Spicy_Curry wrote:
This statement, while well informed and eloquently phrased, attempts to raise EG while further lowering the status of their former employee orb. This is completely unacceptable. It is alright if EG just dropped orb. Instead they undoubtably try to destroy orb's future. He should have been just been dropped and EG should have just stated that they were not aware of his actions. Instead they try to justify their actions. Actions which they shouldn't need to justify. This sort of stuff should not be on teamliquid since its main purpose is to boost EG's position.
Oh, please. EG would have certainly handled this quietly if it hadn't been for the fact that it came from some high profile posts on Reddit and elsewhere. Once it's out in front of everyone, it needed to be dealt with publicly.
EG's choice was a reasonable one, sarcastic one-liners in this thread notwithstanding. The post here wasn't to justify their actions, it was to let the people who saw the Reddit thread, and some of whom were complaining to their sponsors, know that they were taking action.
As for those who think their dismissing him was too severe, remember that his first response wasn't to say "hey, I did that, it was a mistake, I'm happy to apologize," but instead to lie to them and everyone else about it. I mean, come on, who would think that would possibly be a good idea?
I'd bet that had he been as direct about it the moment the issue came up as he was in his apology thread, the outcome probably would have been very different.
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On March 09 2012 20:29 Defacer wrote:
People might say, "Oh, he was raging," or "That was a year ago" but it's hard to imagine an employer saying, "Calling someone you despise a nigger isn't really racist ... It's just an insult ... because it implies you are black ... and black people are inferior ... DOH!"
This is a linguistic fallacy. It's like saying Don Juan was a rake because he cleaned up all the leaves from my yard.
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Casting orb was awesome, streaming raging orb was not
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On March 09 2012 20:29 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:26 Hypemeup wrote:
Damn shame. But I guess EG dont really have any other options after Orb lied in public and people complained to the EG sponsors :| They could have so guts and stick to their OWN choice to hire him! Have some principles and defend their people, not just their money. Its much like the Stephano incident. We hire him. Few days laters, Oh we didn't know, we don't like that. Bye! No consequences, we have the money. Stephano has to give some money to compensate the fact that col thought them has him for a few hours.
Did it ever occur to you that Alex actually might find the word offensive and it's use not worth defending?
If anything, he has STRONGER principles to fire him than if he were to keep him. Giving Orb a slap on the wrist would have been a cop-out and just reinforced EG's image as BM ragers. There would have been a backlash whether he kept him or not.
And this is nothing like Stephano's situation where he SCREWED over complexity.
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On March 09 2012 20:29 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:24 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:22 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 20:21 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 20:12 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:04 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:58 captive411 wrote:On March 09 2012 19:49 Merlimoo wrote:On March 09 2012 19:48 Numy wrote:On March 09 2012 19:46 Zeevo wrote:
Complete and utter disgust for the starcraft community. Who else's careers are you going to destroy? Yip, I don't really want to be a part of this community anymore. I was thinking the same thing. Good. The community clearly doesn't want people who condone the use of language by people like Orb and Destiny. The community doesn't need people like you that jump to conclusions without any thought involved. Do we condone this? No. Do we think the community overreacted and hurt a guys career for a mistake he did in the past? Yes. It's even funnier that you insult me when I'm from a place just recently had apartheid. Really now do you want to go down this road? People must jump off their high horses and realise mistakes happen. Saying a racial slur in anger is a mistake, overreacting like this is another mistake. Both sides lose here there is nothing to gain. It's not as if Orb was going around beating up and subjugating black individuals. Grow up people. As angry as I've ever been, I've never thought to call someone a N-----. Intelligent people don't use the word, don't like to be around people who use the word, and certainly don't employ people who use the word. hiDo I think anyone overreacted? No. Hahaha what a sweeping and generalising statement, that is so fucking untrue it's not even funny. It's just sad. I think i am going to start an email campaign to EG's sponsors to get Idra fired. Pretty sure he used the words faggot and retarded alot more than Orb ever used nigger. Ummm, his statement is 100% true. Which means you might be ... wrong? Yeah man, no intelligent person in any part of the world ever has used the word nigger. Please don't be so retarded. I can actually say ive never used the word nigger in my entire life, is it really that difficult to expect people to not be biggots? With regards to idra i haven't seen him use homophobic language in a while and he is obviously worth 100x more than orb with regards to EG. Idra is worth all that money because he uses hateful language. His controversy is the only reason he makes EG so much money, and so his controversy is the reason they accept his controversy.
So it's okay to use homophobic language if it makes you money.
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Orb behaviour was unacceptable. But a man needs to be able to redeem his mistakes of the past. Has orb to carry the stigma of being a racist because he raged in some ladder games and used an inapropiate language? EG overeacted imo
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On March 09 2012 20:33 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:23 Paladia wrote:
I really don't see how using the n-word is worse than the other statements that Orb pulls all the time, such as:
"All he knows is one build that's all he can do of every single game of every single matchup cuz he's a fucking waste of human life, and a waste of human resources on this planet and he honestly deserves to be dead, like I mean that 100% percent sincerely. I often joke around about this kinda stuff but, um, I would actually be much happier if that guy were just killed in preferably the most painful way possible to be honest. I'm not even sadistic, in fact pain in others usually brings me pain, personally, but not at people like that, people like that I would love to just watch that guy burn, like honestly just be in the most amount of pain for hours and hours. I would revel in that."
It's like the n-word is the most holy of things in the US and is some how worse than expressing joy in someone elses death. While I agree with the decision by EG, I think Orb has done far worse than using the n-word. Where exactly did you get this from? This needs a source. If orb has in fact said that I think he deserves all the shit that's coming his way but given what we know is true (raging in random games, dropping N word) I think people are overreacting a lot.
idra said something VERY similiar to crusher a few months ago. infact im pretty sure idra called crusher a waste of life or something which got idra baned from TL for 90+ days. but idra is still in EG. go figure. infact idra was very cocky about it all, saying that he knows how valuable he is and that it would hurt TL and EG more if they got rid of him. which is why he is still there. its really sickening because its true.
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Great post, nice of you to rewrite your dissertation from you University course! 
I agree that the use of these terms in the SC2 community should not be encouraged, endorsed or accepted in any way so I understand your reaction to it. Of course it's a shame for Orb to be made an example of but I hope at the least other people think of using more general swearwords if the really feel the need to abuse any strangers in a computer game or forum, which is of course unnecessary anyway.
Some people seem to think it's not a big deal but if that's true why not just use other words instead?
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EPT
