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Interesting. Feels like the Naniwa situation a bit, but with a different twist. Eh, acceptable outcome.
On a lighter note, phenomenal run by Catz.
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On January 31 2012 09:31 mathsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! I jumped on my computer when the finals were scheduled to start and was disappointed. I heard nothing of the incident at the time. I'm glad I found some news about a "professional" player stiffing a community run tournament because of his personal, and avoidable, scheduling conflicts.
Well you should have checked the LR report thread, there are 50 pages in there about it.
Here's a link...its like this post, only yesterday and not created by TL admins and placed prominently on the homepage.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302498
Obviously, you are the target market for this type of content... so perhaps it should be top news.
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On January 31 2012 09:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:27 dcsoda wrote:On January 31 2012 09:20 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Stephano forfeited tournament because it was THREE AM and he went to sleep he should say sorry for not being able to play 24/7 I guess. Was it okay to play 2 tournaments same time and forfeit one of them in finals? no. Was it fine to get penalty to be moved to 4th place? yes. Was it stupid for something like this to happen in first place? of course.
Leave it at that and stop causing more drama over nothing, he got his "punishment" and thats enough, making this into big "Community news" is a joke. Instead of making meaningless posts like this you could do something productive and make post about Kas winning the tournament or make ANY post about ANYTHING that is positive and that isnt pointless and that doesnt cause more drama over...nothing.
Making this story of the day or highlight of the day however you wanna call it is overdoing it, thread alone would be fine.
So ignoring problems with tournaments/players would be a good thing? How will there every be any improvement so that stuff like this is avoided if no one cares? Guy forfeited the FINALS why is that not newsworthy? Kas won but not by playing who he should have, how is that not to be mentioned? It's not like the OP was inflammatory so what in that post is causing more drama that wouldn't have happened anyway? Im not saying it should be ignored but making it story of the day is a joke, there are way too many other things that are wrong in SC2 community but hell if you want to start with forfeiting, why dont you start with teams forfeiting team leagues first and not individual players?
Have any of those teams forfeited 45 minutes late to their finals match?
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This has probably been posted but it wasn't delayed until 2:30 CET as posted in the OP. I was watching (and I live in Germany (CET)) and it was ~4:30 CET. Which is INCREDIBLY late for somebody to be playing SC2 if they have a normal schedule (get up around 8-12am go to bed 10pm-2am)
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On January 31 2012 09:08 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:05 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 08:54 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 08:49 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 08:45 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 08:43 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 08:41 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 08:37 Quakie wrote:
I got ya, Hot_Bid. Doesn't seem like it is bias at place here. Over to the case, Stephano seems to be a very blunt guy, and I think this also got to him here a bit. Its frustrating because even if someone makes a really shitty OP like "Liquid sucks now man" we'd have to consider leaving it open even if we'd instantly close an "EG sucks now man" or "Mouz sucks now man" thread, because people get all wound up about perceived bias. 1. If any other non-Liquid player forfeited first round, we'd not make a thread 2. If Tyler or Ret or Zenio or Hero forfeited in the finals for a similar reason as Stephano did, we'd make a thread You can believe us or not about the truth of these two statements, but that is what we'd do, and if that's the case then there is no hypocrisy here. As for the newsworthiness of this, of course it's news, it's one of the best if not the best non Korean forfeiting in the finals of a semi-major community organized tournament with a 3k prize pool. It's about as concrete news and notable as it gets. Did you make a thread about Polt? We did not make a thread about Polt. Are you saying we should have? Or that us not making a thread about Polt is somehow unfair? Please clarify. Because I am pretty sure we were right not to make a thread about Polt. However, if you feel that there is an epidemic of forfeits and it is discussion worthy, you can make a thread about all of them in SC2 General with a nice OP. Did you make a thread about Polt? You can. I'm just pointing out the fact that this happened to Stephano because he's the "IT" guy right now and this post is feeding the mob. ONOG and Zotac daily are different in notability, structure (invites vs open) and scale (prize pool / viewers). I don't buy the "don't feed the mob." If it's a notable topic worthy of discussion (and this clearly qualifies as concrete news), you present facts and that's it. There are plenty of people defending Stephano in this thread as well as those criticizing him. Do people who are saying "Where's the thread about Tyler or Polt" really believe there should be one? Circumstances matter. This was a much more high profile, bigger event than Zotac, and best foreigner in the finals is not ordinary pro in the first round. This concept of "thread-worthiness" eludes me... but I do think it is piling on by making it the top story on TL Community News. Why not just a general SC2 post? I reserve the right to be disappointed with TL for making this the top story of the day. If the tournament was so significant, then Kas winning should be the top story. In the future, we will be making news changes to have headlines with results too. I agree that in a perfect world the top story should be Kas winning, but the reality is that the Stephano forfeit eclipses the actual results of the tournament. We are simply reporting on this which has become the biggest most notable story of the event, which is unfortunate but the harsh truth.
Self fulfilling prophecy, you make this issue the top of SC2 General and Community News.... You could make the results top of one or both if you wanted to and like the majority of other drama that occurs during tourney's it generally stays in the LR thread of that tourney.
Especially in this particular case in a relatively small tournament. It's hardly comparable to GSL or MLG.
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On January 31 2012 09:26 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:21 Otolia wrote:On January 31 2012 09:14 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:11 Enervate wrote:
I for one appreciate this being posted as news on TL. I didn't even know about this tournament or this incident beforehand so I found this thread very informative, and I'm glad I found out what happened. Hooray. I just hope there are a lot of people like you who are not posting. I hope you also understands what it says about our community that this kind of subject is hosted on the same website as the excellent GSL/PL write-ups. Not to diminish the work of the newsers, but I think TL should focus more on its excellent writing staff and let the users post the news and moderating after. I really disagree with this. Do you believe that an ONOG tournament admin, or Stephano himself, or a French national making this thread would make for better news thread? Absolutely not, it'd be entirely biased and not include all relevant information. Considering the touchy nature of the subject, the multiple sources, and the responses, I think the OP is actually quite fair in its presentation of what happened.
I wasn't really discussing the quality or the opinion of the OP. You are right in that it is fair. I think I didn't make myself clear.
What I had in mind is that any news posted on TL has a certain impact on the community and that the most popular thread in term of posts are often the ones containing drama. It saddens me that the staff considers its job to make it public. I don't think it's beneficial to the image of our community if we can't deal with the most simple event without causing such a ruckus. TL is the flagship of our community, and as such has a tremendous influence. While I value neutrality, I wish you (and the rest of the staff) could be more affirmative of your position. It is a thin thread to walk on but it could help us - help us beyond what could simple declaration of annoyed viewers, or irritated players could do.
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On January 31 2012 09:34 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:31 mathsucks wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! I jumped on my computer when the finals were scheduled to start and was disappointed. I heard nothing of the incident at the time. I'm glad I found some news about a "professional" player stiffing a community run tournament because of his personal, and avoidable, scheduling conflicts. Well you should have check the LR report thread, there are 50 pages in there about it. Here's a link...its like this post, only yesterday http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302498Obviously, you are the target market for this type of content... so perhaps it should be top news.
So...whenever something gets mentioned in a 200 page, fast moving, LR thread...we should assume everyone knows about it when it's this substantial?
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On January 31 2012 09:18 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:11 Otolia wrote:On January 31 2012 08:52 disciple wrote:
A couple of hours earlier the same day I was privileged to watch a 6 hours long tennis match that epitomized the very essence of professional sport - the resilience to overcome all physical and mental challenges, the determination to win, to entertain spectators and fans regardless of fatigue and pain. Now, there's no need to compare Stephano with Djokovic and Nadal, but speaking of professionalism what Stephano did was insulting to his profession to say the least. The difference in term of incentives between a Grand Chelem (around a 1 M $) and those of the ONOG (around 1.5 K $) is significant. But that's not everything, when a professional tennis player decides to forfeit a match in a smaller tournament to preserve himself for a next one - bigger - like Tsonga often do for Rolland Garros, nobody is criticizing him for being insulting to the profession because every other person knows his body and mindset are his sole way to make money. If you don't see the problem in your opinion right now, I will just left you and the other paragons of virtue who are keen to lash the hounds onto everyone not deemed worthy of their supposed superiority that professional sport is a job which means it is about making money. When the rewards isn't worth the care, nobody will do the job ... to say the least. Stephano as well as the two players mentioned are getting paid to entertain the spectators. Whether they see themselves in this position or not it doesn't matter as winning a Grand Slam tournament or 1,5k sc event would be equally irrelevant if no one wants to watch you play. On a side note, do you really believe Djokovic or Nadal thought about the money while playing each other? The real problem to me comes from Stephanos reaction to the situation and reading a good share of the comments here its absolutely shocking for me to realize how low are the community standards for professional ethics in progaming
haha, you are really comparing the prestige of a Grand Slam with a Sc2 Tournament nobody knew about before yesterday °_°
And to be fair: If Djoko didnt decide to play the finals, he would still be second place with all the prize money/ATP ranking points, etc. So pretty bad call by the organizers.
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On January 31 2012 09:30 clementdudu wrote:
for the stephano case,everything has been said.
for the caster phrase,i,who hardly ever get offended by anything,actually left the stream.not that it was a french joke,theres plenty of jokes about different nationalities in france and im quite fond of them.
what really offended me was the way it was said.you could easily feel that the (bad btw)caster had just resentment,and instead of handling it like he should have,just let out a xenophobic comment,poorly hidden behind a *joke*.
the real headline here is:xenophobic comment made in community funded event,and majority finds it cool.
I do not think that most people would be cool about that, at least I hope not. I think the main issue is that news like that are forgotten under the big stories.
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Stephano reminds me of Bobby Fischer.
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On January 31 2012 09:34 mathsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dcsoda wrote:On January 31 2012 09:20 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Stephano forfeited tournament because it was THREE AM and he went to sleep he should say sorry for not being able to play 24/7 I guess. Was it okay to play 2 tournaments same time and forfeit one of them in finals? no. Was it fine to get penalty to be moved to 4th place? yes. Was it stupid for something like this to happen in first place? of course.
Leave it at that and stop causing more drama over nothing, he got his "punishment" and thats enough, making this into big "Community news" is a joke. Instead of making meaningless posts like this you could do something productive and make post about Kas winning the tournament or make ANY post about ANYTHING that is positive and that isnt pointless and that doesnt cause more drama over...nothing.
Making this story of the day or highlight of the day however you wanna call it is overdoing it, thread alone would be fine.
So ignoring problems with tournaments/players would be a good thing? How will there every be any improvement so that stuff like this is avoided if no one cares? Guy forfeited the FINALS why is that not newsworthy? Kas won but not by playing who he should have, how is that not to be mentioned? It's not like the OP was inflammatory so what in that post is causing more drama that wouldn't have happened anyway? Im not saying it should be ignored but making it story of the day is a joke, there are way too many other things that are wrong in SC2 community but hell if you want to start with forfeiting, why dont you start with teams forfeiting team leagues first and not individual players? Have any of those teams forfeited 45 minutes late to their finals match?
I dont know, do you have source that says otherwise? thats not even the point -.- point is this is making simple forfeit that happened 50000 times already in SC2, but since its for 1500$ suddendly its terrible and first forfeit we ever saw..
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Braavos36379 Posts
On January 31 2012 09:35 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:26 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:21 Otolia wrote:On January 31 2012 09:14 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:11 Enervate wrote:
I for one appreciate this being posted as news on TL. I didn't even know about this tournament or this incident beforehand so I found this thread very informative, and I'm glad I found out what happened. Hooray. I just hope there are a lot of people like you who are not posting. I hope you also understands what it says about our community that this kind of subject is hosted on the same website as the excellent GSL/PL write-ups. Not to diminish the work of the newsers, but I think TL should focus more on its excellent writing staff and let the users post the news and moderating after. I really disagree with this. Do you believe that an ONOG tournament admin, or Stephano himself, or a French national making this thread would make for better news thread? Absolutely not, it'd be entirely biased and not include all relevant information. Considering the touchy nature of the subject, the multiple sources, and the responses, I think the OP is actually quite fair in its presentation of what happened. I wasn't really discussing the quality or the opinion of the OP. You are right in that it is fair. I think I didn't make myself clear. What I had in mind is that any news posted on TL has a certain impact on the community and that the most popular thread in term of posts are often the ones containing drama. It saddens me that the staff considers its job to make it public. I don't think it's beneficial to the image of our community if we can't deal with the most simple event without causing such a ruckus. TL is the flagship of our community, and as such has a tremendous influence. While I value neutrality, I wish you (and the rest of the staff) could be more affirmative of your position. It is a thin thread to walk on but it could help us - help us beyond what could simple declaration of annoyed viewers, or irritated players could do.
I agree it is not good to have as a top thread. Neither was the Naniwa probe rush topic or the one about the IPL Philippines incident.
However these are issues that we cannot just ignore and pretend they didn't happen, they actually have impact and importance in discussion and will influence future things. It is important that we are open in discussing them.
I think TL just needs to present the issue fairly, not sweep it under the rug because it "looks bad."
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On January 31 2012 09:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:27 dcsoda wrote:On January 31 2012 09:20 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Stephano forfeited tournament because it was THREE AM and he went to sleep he should say sorry for not being able to play 24/7 I guess. Was it okay to play 2 tournaments same time and forfeit one of them in finals? no. Was it fine to get penalty to be moved to 4th place? yes. Was it stupid for something like this to happen in first place? of course.
Leave it at that and stop causing more drama over nothing, he got his "punishment" and thats enough, making this into big "Community news" is a joke. Instead of making meaningless posts like this you could do something productive and make post about Kas winning the tournament or make ANY post about ANYTHING that is positive and that isnt pointless and that doesnt cause more drama over...nothing.
Making this story of the day or highlight of the day however you wanna call it is overdoing it, thread alone would be fine.
So ignoring problems with tournaments/players would be a good thing? How will there every be any improvement so that stuff like this is avoided if no one cares? Guy forfeited the FINALS why is that not newsworthy? Kas won but not by playing who he should have, how is that not to be mentioned? It's not like the OP was inflammatory so what in that post is causing more drama that wouldn't have happened anyway? Im not saying it should be ignored but making it story of the day is a joke, there are way too many other things that are wrong in SC2 community but hell if you want to start with forfeiting, why dont you start with teams forfeiting team leagues first and not individual players?
I just don't understand the vitriol toward this. ESPN runs headlines the same way if someone has to bow out of a tennis tournament after being injured. There isn't any blame placed it's just what happened. This is the same situation.
Seems you're biggest problem is with the comments flaming Stephano rather than the OP itself.
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If the match was for more money I'm sure he would've found the passion to carry on ;s not the best idea, this community will eat you for this kind of stuff
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On January 31 2012 09:36 mathsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:34 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:31 mathsucks wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! I jumped on my computer when the finals were scheduled to start and was disappointed. I heard nothing of the incident at the time. I'm glad I found some news about a "professional" player stiffing a community run tournament because of his personal, and avoidable, scheduling conflicts. Well you should have check the LR report thread, there are 50 pages in there about it. Here's a link...its like this post, only yesterday http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302498Obviously, you are the target market for this type of content... so perhaps it should be top news. So...whenever something gets mentioned in a 200 page, fast moving, LR thread...we should assume everyone knows about it when it's this substantial?
It wasn't MENTIONED.. it was just like this thread... pages and pages about Stephano... you couldn't have missed it, if you cared to look.
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On January 31 2012 09:26 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:21 Otolia wrote:On January 31 2012 09:14 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:11 Enervate wrote:
I for one appreciate this being posted as news on TL. I didn't even know about this tournament or this incident beforehand so I found this thread very informative, and I'm glad I found out what happened. Hooray. I just hope there are a lot of people like you who are not posting. I hope you also understands what it says about our community that this kind of subject is hosted on the same website as the excellent GSL/PL write-ups. Not to diminish the work of the newsers, but I think TL should focus more on its excellent writing staff and let the users post the news and moderating after. I really disagree with this. Do you believe that an ONOG tournament admin, or Stephano himself, or a French national making this thread would make for better news thread? Absolutely not, it'd be entirely biased and not include all relevant information. Considering the touchy nature of the subject, the multiple sources, and the responses, I think the OP is actually quite fair in its presentation of what happened.
I was vocal about the thread myself, but I'll come out on the side of Hot_Bid here. This is news, and pretty much guaranteed SOTG material. The OP is a bit poor as it did not link the the LR where the discussion was well under way, but the fact that the discussion was under way there meant it was big news. The only downside to the timing and presentation of the OP was that a lot of the information that had been discussed and disseminated was left behind in the LR and was not incorporated into the news story, which makes for reading this thread quite painful for anyone who read the the LR thread (which had roughly the amount of pages as this thread has now dedicated to the controversy).
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If only this news post was before the tournament started, its getting more recognition now then when it was announced. The tourny can bash and punish stephano all it wants but all you need is a top pro to drop out due to lack of sleep and you get a hit in the community! just kind of ironic it takes someone to look bad to get recognition sometimes~
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Impressive that a forfeit is worth so many posts, sure it was a finals one making it news worthy, but those things happens. Okay guess this is all new to people that joined with sc2, i actually see no problem in how this problem was handled.
And tss allnighters for the win, who needs sleep. Understand stephanos decision though
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On January 31 2012 09:34 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:31 mathsucks wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! I jumped on my computer when the finals were scheduled to start and was disappointed. I heard nothing of the incident at the time. I'm glad I found some news about a "professional" player stiffing a community run tournament because of his personal, and avoidable, scheduling conflicts. Well you should have checked the LR report thread, there are 50 pages in there about it. Here's a link...its like this post, only yesterday and not created by TL admins and placed prominently on the homepage. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302498Obviously, you are the target market for this type of content... so perhaps it should be top news.
who wants to go through a hundred some odd number of pages to figure out what happened. especially since a lot of tl.net posters spout random rubbish based on signals in space rather than actual facts.
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On January 31 2012 09:35 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:26 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:21 Otolia wrote:On January 31 2012 09:14 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 09:11 Enervate wrote:
I for one appreciate this being posted as news on TL. I didn't even know about this tournament or this incident beforehand so I found this thread very informative, and I'm glad I found out what happened. Hooray. I just hope there are a lot of people like you who are not posting. I hope you also understands what it says about our community that this kind of subject is hosted on the same website as the excellent GSL/PL write-ups. Not to diminish the work of the newsers, but I think TL should focus more on its excellent writing staff and let the users post the news and moderating after. I really disagree with this. Do you believe that an ONOG tournament admin, or Stephano himself, or a French national making this thread would make for better news thread? Absolutely not, it'd be entirely biased and not include all relevant information. Considering the touchy nature of the subject, the multiple sources, and the responses, I think the OP is actually quite fair in its presentation of what happened. I wasn't really discussing the quality or the opinion of the OP. You are right in that it is fair. I think I didn't make myself clear. What I had in mind is that any news posted on TL has a certain impact on the community and that the most popular thread in term of posts are often the ones containing drama. It saddens me that the staff considers its job to make it public. I don't think it's beneficial to the image of our community if we can't deal with the most simple event without causing such a ruckus. TL is the flagship of our community, and as such has a tremendous influence. While I value neutrality, I wish you (and the rest of the staff) could be more affirmative of your position. It is a thin thread to walk on but it could help us - help us beyond what could simple declaration of annoyed viewers, or irritated players could do.
The day the drama stops is the day this community dies.
This is a sport (imo) and sport thrives on drama and personalities even moreso than the actual event itself (just look at F1).
As for the incident I don't blame Stephano for making a mistake with his scheduling and discovering he is too tired to play in everything. A better apology would have been nice but it's fine.
ONOG should 100% be applauded for what they did. Brilliant idea to move him to fourth and get a proper final.
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EPT
