EPTToo Much Firepower, Not Enough Stalkers - Page 19
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
In SC2 we have situations like roach vs hellion, colossus vs ling, high templar vs marine etc etc Doesnt matter if you have lightning reflexes, you WILL lose your marines as damage is highest at the start of the storm. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:34 Psychobabas wrote: The way I see it, StarCraft 2 has too many hardcounters. I mean, the worse that Brood War in viable gameplay had was vulture vs ultralisk or something like that, but even the vulture had the mines... Yeah Goliaths outranged mutalisks by a stupid amount, but they dealt reduced damage to them... Ultralisks became progressively better vs marines with upgrades, but in SC2 they can downright get mauled my 3/3 marine due to shit dmg output vs light. The reaver was ridiculously powerful but was also a gamble in damage output. So it all evened out. In SC2 we have situations like roach vs hellion, colossus vs ling, high templar vs marine etc etc Doesnt matter if you have lightning reflexes, you WILL lose your marines as damage is highest at the start of the storm. yeah, in BW you didnt have Reaver vs Marine, because noone was as stupid as to go Marines vs Protoss... same with bio vs Tank-Terran and other stuff... | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:43 Big J wrote: yeah, in BW you didnt have Reaver vs Marine, because noone was as stupid as to go Marines vs Protoss... same with bio vs Tank-Terran and other stuff... who said anything about marine vs reaver? i said "viable gameplay" | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:47 Psychobabas wrote: who said anything about marine vs reaver? i said "viable gameplay" so you think it would be better if colossi/storms were even better vs bio (BW level), so that bio just becomes unplayable vs P? yeah, in bw bio vP isnt viable. the one difference is, that Im not allowed to go into the BW forum and shit all over BWs design, while evrryone who plays BW has his own thread here. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:34 Psychobabas wrote: The way I see it, StarCraft 2 has too many hardcounters. I mean, the worse that Brood War in viable gameplay had was vulture vs ultralisk or something like that, but even the vulture had the mines... Yeah Goliaths outranged mutalisks by a stupid amount, but they dealt reduced damage to them... Ultralisks became progressively better vs marines with upgrades, but in SC2 they can downright get mauled my 3/3 marine due to shit dmg output vs light. The reaver was ridiculously powerful but was also a gamble in damage output. So it all evened out. In SC2 we have situations like roach vs hellion, colossus vs ling, high templar vs marine etc etc Doesnt matter if you have lightning reflexes, you WILL lose your marines as damage is highest at the start of the storm. I don't really understand how the ultra vs marine comparison fits your overall post, first you say that SC2 has too many hard counters and then say how much better it was when the ultra was a harder counter to marines in BW? Just seems like a mish-mash post of generic complaints to me, and the way SC2 handles things is of course worse by default. Oh, and SC2 marines don't actually kill ultras when both sides are fully upgraded. They only tank damage (and kill lings) when properly spread out, you still need marauders/ghosts/tanks as damage dealers. | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:59 Big J wrote: so you think it would be better if colossi/storms were even better vs bio (BW level), so that bio just becomes unplayable vs P? yeah, in bw bio vP isnt viable. the one difference is, that Im not allowed to go into the BW forum and shit all over BWs design, while evrryone who plays BW has his own thread here. He's talking about how in BW even units that were bad against something didn't get totally crushed. It's not true to everything, like the bio vs P example, but it's definitely true to a lot of stuff, like the vulture vs ultra example, and the fact that you could fight lurkers with marines etc. I don't think the game should be BW with better graphics (actually that would be awesome), but I think that the overall concept design of BW should be the guideline, otherwise why call it starcraft TWO? Just call it space wars or something... I mean, just because the story continues and they're the same genre doesn't mean it's a sequel. TBH this discussion reminds me a lot the discussion about fallout 1 and 2 vs fallout 3... | ||
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Hypz
Sweden25 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:25 Biggun69 wrote: What the hell? Why should one unit stop a huge amount of mutalisks? If you want to stop mutas you needs turrets + thors or marines + thors. It's not rocket science. When did i ever said that 1 unit should counter a HUGE amount of mutaliks, i was talking about it being killed cost effectively when it's supposed to counter and i was pointing out how stupid the way that he was counting balance in this case was, you're completely ignoring everything i typed, read before you answer. | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:31 Iksf wrote: I actually disagree with almost your entire post. The game is already way too passive and turtle friendly due to things like defenders advantage and OP static defenses. Also god forbid players have to worry about counterattacks. Troll? While you have a point in games being too passive, I think defenders advantage is a joke for both Z and P | ||
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:28 Filter wrote:4 Zealots can hold off a 2mara, 4 rines drop if you don't stutter micro it. I know theres a ton of good arguements in that post. But I would like to focus on just this bit. I just did some testing, and 4 zealots do not kill a drop of 2 marauders and 4 marines. Not even close. No micro from either side except stim (and no one drops and don't stim). 4 zealots without speed leaves 4 marines and 1 marauder alive. 4 zealots with speed leaves 2 marines and 1 marauder alive. And if you start warping inn zealots on top of the drop (which is the most likely scenario, as no one has zealots lying around waiting for a drop to happen on top of them) not a single terran unit dies. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:37 Mentalizor wrote: Troll? While you have a point in games being too passive, I think defenders advantage is a joke for both Z and P This is exactly why this game is so passive. Rubbish static defenses means you have to keep your army at home the entire time, as moving out before you get that big army usually means suicide. Terran is the only race with good static defenses, like planetarys, almost free bunkers, siege tanks and sesnro towers. Which is why terran can be active the entire game, while protoss more often than not has to sit home and defend, even if he has the army lead. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:37 Mentalizor wrote: Troll? While you have a point in games being too passive, I think defenders advantage is a joke for both Z and P zergs defenders advantage is pretty huge. you always have all your units where you need them, due to their speed and creep. also with larvamechanics you can just outgrow your opponent if you can just slow him down. for P, yeah it's not that great. defensive forcefields are only to stall out and canons are still not good enough against concentrated attacks to allow for a more active P balancing. terran on the other hand has already a bit too much imo, so that P and Z balancing has to be forced to be very defensivly or allinish. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10963 Posts
It's the lack of untis with "defensive" power.. Like the Lurker, "old" High Templars and Reavers, Siegetanks.... Static defenses were more or less the same in SC/BW, (Toss is stronger in SC2 but lacks support, Zerg "feels" weaker.. But thats hard to say whiteout Lurkers which were just absolutely integral...). | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Conclusion: Stalkers I personally feel that Stalkers are one of the most well designed units in the entire game. They don't kill things exceptionally fast, really gain a heavy edge in terms of your ability to micro them and even have an upgrade that lets them become extremely strong in the hands of a skilled player. Have you ever lost to a player using a lot of stalkers (outside of allins) where it felt awful and terrible? Where it felt like there was nothing you could do he just clicked a couple of buttons and autowon? I haven't. Actually, every fucking ZvP? I have to overcommit to countering one unit (collosus) with units that are terrible against stalkers late game (roaches are BAD against stalkers late game, corrupters are useless). Blink is AMAZING (why can't I burrow and unburrow INSTANTLY under collosus? THEY have force field and I don't...) So basically unless I am SO ahead that I literally engage in their base, kill every single t3 unit and then remax on lings hydras and roaches before I lose all my bases, there's no way I can beat protoss. I have to be 3 bases ahead to get broodlords without just losing to him walking by and sniping every base with blink stalkers while he gets a mothership and archons. I agree with your post but there's a lot more problems than that in the game and Stalkers are one of the most versatile unit in the game, unmatched in the late game, and its terrible. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:06 Velr wrote: It's not rubbish static defense. It's the lack of untis with "defensive" power.. Like the Lurker, "old" High Templars and Reavers, Siegetanks.... Static defenses were more or less the same in SC/BW, (Toss is stronger in SC2 but lacks support, Zerg "feels" weaker.. But thats hard to say whiteout Lurkers which were just absolutely integral...). Statis units are considered static defense. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10963 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:22 Velr wrote: In what world? in the world where spines can be used to attack. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On February 01 2012 22:22 Velr wrote: In what world? the world...of starcraft! | ||
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Mazaire
Australia217 Posts
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