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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. |
On January 18 2012 15:14 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:12 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 15:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:59 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:50 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:49 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:47 rauk wrote:
how on earth can TSL be this badly mismanaged that they keep losing players like this so consistently Can you really blame Coach Lee? He lets Fnatic into his team house, they begin to work on a partnership, and then Fnatic takes aLive? if all these players (rain, puma, clide, sangho, alive, etc) are so eager to jump ship from TSL clearly coach lee is doing something wrong You clearly haven't seen anything I've posted about this. Rain left to live with his father in New York PuMa was poached by EG Clide respectfully approached Coach Lee about the move to SlayerS because of his friends in the SlayerS house. SangHo and JYP left/were removed after failing to adjust to the new training regimen at the TSL house. aLive was apparently poached (I had heard otherwise, this is news to me) and left the team house with his best friend who's name I won't reveal. with the exception of rain, all of those indicate some kind of discontent with TSL. a player who's happy with the team he's in doesn't just switch unless they're offered a shit ton of money (and if that's consistently the case with TSL then they're mismanaging their finances and/or sponsorships). Well, PuMa and aLive were both offered "a shit ton of money" SangHo and JYP didn't like the new, stricter practice schedule Coach Lee was forming the team around Clide, I'm not sure if he was discontent in the house or not, but he apparently took the restructuring as a time to ask his leave. so all of that, combined with heart leaving, plus the FD/tester fiasco, plus the fact that coach lee used to be an MBC coach (a team famous for getting their good players like bisu or julyzerg bought out because they stiffed their players hard on salary), doesn't seem to have the least bit to do with TSL's management? Coach =/= manager.
if i'm not mistaken coach lee acts in a managerial role for TSL? if you're referring to MBC, i thought he used to be a head coach (much like coach park or january) who also takes a managerial role rather than a race coach like oov.
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On January 18 2012 15:19 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 14:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:50 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:49 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:47 rauk wrote:
how on earth can TSL be this badly mismanaged that they keep losing players like this so consistently Can you really blame Coach Lee? He lets Fnatic into his team house, they begin to work on a partnership, and then Fnatic takes aLive? if all these players (rain, puma, clide, sangho, alive, etc) are so eager to jump ship from TSL clearly coach lee is doing something wrong aLive was apparently poached (I had heard otherwise, this is news to me) and left the team house with his best friend who's name I won't reveal. Wait, you say aLive left with his best friend.. isn't that Polt? Don't tell me they're losing him as well..
 Heart.
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I'm angry that they didn't approach me officially"
is that mean they approached to him unofficially?
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On January 18 2012 15:19 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:14 pdd wrote:On January 18 2012 15:12 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 15:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:59 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:50 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:49 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:47 rauk wrote:
how on earth can TSL be this badly mismanaged that they keep losing players like this so consistently Can you really blame Coach Lee? He lets Fnatic into his team house, they begin to work on a partnership, and then Fnatic takes aLive? if all these players (rain, puma, clide, sangho, alive, etc) are so eager to jump ship from TSL clearly coach lee is doing something wrong You clearly haven't seen anything I've posted about this. Rain left to live with his father in New York PuMa was poached by EG Clide respectfully approached Coach Lee about the move to SlayerS because of his friends in the SlayerS house. SangHo and JYP left/were removed after failing to adjust to the new training regimen at the TSL house. aLive was apparently poached (I had heard otherwise, this is news to me) and left the team house with his best friend who's name I won't reveal. with the exception of rain, all of those indicate some kind of discontent with TSL. a player who's happy with the team he's in doesn't just switch unless they're offered a shit ton of money (and if that's consistently the case with TSL then they're mismanaging their finances and/or sponsorships). Well, PuMa and aLive were both offered "a shit ton of money" SangHo and JYP didn't like the new, stricter practice schedule Coach Lee was forming the team around Clide, I'm not sure if he was discontent in the house or not, but he apparently took the restructuring as a time to ask his leave. so all of that, combined with heart leaving, plus the FD/tester fiasco, plus the fact that coach lee used to be an MBC coach (a team famous for getting their good players like bisu or julyzerg bought out because they stiffed their players hard on salary), doesn't seem to have the least bit to do with TSL's management? Coach =/= manager. if i'm not mistaken coach lee acts in a managerial role for TSL? if you're referring to MBC, i thought he used to be a head coach (much like coach park or january) who also takes a managerial role rather than a race coach like oov.
He's the manager for TSL now, but not at MBC. He wasn't the head coach.
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On January 18 2012 15:09 Arceus wrote:
I can see aLive going 0-4 this afternoon and soon disappearing without a trace. Thats what is happening with FD/Tester/Rain/Jyp/SangHo and Puma (forever Code B) to a lesser extent (Clide is another case)
I mean, thats what you get for leaving for cash and relaxing practice.
TSL is not doomed by any means
To be fair, FD faded away far before leaving TSL. Also, Puma has indeed been Code B for quite some time, but he actually has only attempted the Code A qualifiers once if I recall, and I wouldn't say he is disappearing without a trace considering he ranks in at #5 of most prize money won in 2011 and that money has come from recent events.
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Heart too? TSL seems to be on the verge of collapse. They are bleeding players too fast. This might drop them from the top tier of Korean teams. At this point they can barely fill a GSTL roster.
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Sounds mostly like it's Alive who's at fault with the information here considering he shouldn't be so actively breaching his contract. Legal measures are definitely within Lee's rights and are completely understandable. The ill will Alive shows with this move is disgusting.
That said, there has to be some underlying reason why TSL players are abandoning the team so often (whether to Korean of foreigner teams), even to the point of breaking a contract...
Oh Esports drama... So strange.
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On January 18 2012 15:20 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:09 Arceus wrote:
I can see aLive going 0-4 this afternoon and soon disappearing without a trace. Thats what is happening with FD/Tester/Rain/Jyp/SangHo and Puma (forever Code B) to a lesser extent (Clide is another case)
I mean, thats what you get for leaving for cash and relaxing practice.
TSL is not doomed by any means To be fair, FD faded away far before leaving TSL. Also, Puma has indeed been Code B for quite some time, but he actually has only attempted the Code A qualifiers once if I recall, and I wouldn't say he is disappearing without a trace considering he ranks in at #5 of most prize money won in 2011 and that money has come from recent events.
He's attempted both Hot6iX GSL and GSL November 2011 qualifiers and lost pretty badly.
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On January 18 2012 15:12 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:59 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:50 rauk wrote:On January 18 2012 14:49 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 14:47 rauk wrote:
how on earth can TSL be this badly mismanaged that they keep losing players like this so consistently Can you really blame Coach Lee? He lets Fnatic into his team house, they begin to work on a partnership, and then Fnatic takes aLive? if all these players (rain, puma, clide, sangho, alive, etc) are so eager to jump ship from TSL clearly coach lee is doing something wrong You clearly haven't seen anything I've posted about this. Rain left to live with his father in New York PuMa was poached by EG Clide respectfully approached Coach Lee about the move to SlayerS because of his friends in the SlayerS house. SangHo and JYP left/were removed after failing to adjust to the new training regimen at the TSL house. aLive was apparently poached (I had heard otherwise, this is news to me) and left the team house with his best friend who's name I won't reveal. with the exception of rain, all of those indicate some kind of discontent with TSL. a player who's happy with the team he's in doesn't just switch unless they're offered a shit ton of money (and if that's consistently the case with TSL then they're mismanaging their finances and/or sponsorships). Well, PuMa and aLive were both offered "a shit ton of money" SangHo and JYP didn't like the new, stricter practice schedule Coach Lee was forming the team around Clide, I'm not sure if he was discontent in the house or not, but he apparently took the restructuring as a time to ask his leave. so all of that, combined with heart leaving, plus the FD/tester fiasco, plus the fact that coach lee used to be an MBC coach (a team famous for getting their good players like bisu or julyzerg bought out because they stiffed their players hard on salary), doesn't seem to have the least bit to do with TSL's management?
Let's look at some factors here.
a) Heart doesn't have a contract and is seemingly not pleased with the practice schedule and demands of the team so decides to leave. When he isn't contracted (as the person who reported the news said) its his choice and TSL hasn't come out attacking him for doing so. So, that's just a player looking at his options.
b) The FD/TesteR situation I feel is mainly FD and TesteR's fault. Yes, Lee told them that the basis of TSL would be not having a regimented practice schedule (because at the time that was completely unnecessary), but for a PROFESSIONAL gamer to take that and mean "oh I never need to practice regardless of circumstances" is a joke. They tried to get by on their "talent" without ever practicing. That may have worked in the early open seasons when nobody was practicing super hard, or when the game wasn't figured out, but when you're being paid a salary and others are "hungry" you'd think you'd practice at least a little when your play and results take a huge dip. They left because TSL wanted to move to a regimented practice schedule and Lee allowed them to leave their contracts to do this. Then they underhanded him by saying they were owed money, which was false.
c) Do you really think Lee had control at MBCgame over how much his players made? He was a coach, not the manager (there is a difference. On top of that, player contracts are handled primarily by the sponsors. in this case MBCgame. MBCgame is known and notorious for short-handing players salaries because they are a PUBLIC company versus a PRIVATE company. Meaning they simply do not have as much money as the other teams. Its not like Samsung who has a shit ton of money and just refuses to pay their player (Stork and JangBi come to mind). Thus, whenever a player has asked to leave or a team has approached them about purchasing their players they have always done so in a professional and legal manner.
d) I will agree that I think there is a slight problem with TSL management and Coach Lee. Not in their managerial style, but in their belief in good faith and trust. This was possible in the "KeSPA System" because KeSPA oversaw everything and not shady like stealing players was ever really going to go down. Because Lee is so used to everyone honoring their words with their actions I think he has too much trust and good faith in people and that ends up biting him in the ass.
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On January 18 2012 15:15 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:14 Bleak wrote:
Coach Lee is like a children that whines because he lost his toys. If you are that concerned about losing your players, then manage your team better, sign contracts that don't let his happen for example. Have you read the thread Alive had a contract. Lee signed his top players (Polt, Alive, Hyun) to contracts following the Pumagate.
Listen, there is all this talk about how TSL must be doing something horribly wrong to make his players leave, but this might not be the case, there is another option. I might be wrong but TSL might not be paying alive, or if they are not very much. I assume Puma is making good money from EG, not to mention the money hes made from tournaments. Considering alive is probably quite a bit better than Puma based on his results in the GSL Fnatic probably gave him a ton more than he was getting (if anything) from TSL.
TSL doesn't really send a lot of their players to foreign tournaments, and after all every korean wants to be sent abroad to win the easy money, Alive probably knows if Puma can own the foreign scene than he can too. Point is it might just be a case of wanting to join a foreign team, which is what Rain did, you could argue that Clide joined another kroean team but if your a terran why would you not want to join slayers. On top of that Slayers probably has a much larger bankroll than TSL does to pay its players. Most of this is speculation but its possible, but even in sc2 a lot of the time it really is just about the money.
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On January 18 2012 15:20 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:09 Arceus wrote:
I can see aLive going 0-4 this afternoon and soon disappearing without a trace. Thats what is happening with FD/Tester/Rain/Jyp/SangHo and Puma (forever Code B) to a lesser extent (Clide is another case)
I mean, thats what you get for leaving for cash and relaxing practice.
TSL is not doomed by any means To be fair, FD faded away far before leaving TSL. Also, Puma has indeed been Code B for quite some time, but he actually has only attempted the Code A qualifiers once if I recall, and I wouldn't say he is disappearing without a trace considering he ranks in at #5 of most prize money won in 2011 and that money has come from recent events.
Bolded statement is incorrect. I've seen him at 2 of them. I will assume its more than 2.
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Now this happens again, so silly.
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On January 18 2012 15:18 ItsMeDomLee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:16 Goibon wrote:On January 18 2012 15:12 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On January 18 2012 15:11 m2e wrote:
time for korean teams to realize that a handshake doesnt mean much when theres money to be made. they NEED to sign these players to contracts and thats that.
i understand the korean way of doing business is different from the foreigner way and they believe that a verbal promise/agreement holds its value but when theres thousands of dollars to be made with a player you cant just shake their hand and make them promise they'll stay
all the fault is on the TSL management at this point.... fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. Considering Coach Lee is talking about taking legal action for a breack of contract.... I'm assuming he did sign hs players to a contract.... If he can't afford to keep his players i'm struggling to see how he could afford to sue. Unless they really are only leaving 'cause he's working them too hard and they want a free ride in the west or something. I can't see him winning here, even if he is in the right. Reading comprehsion fail? Alive signed a contract with TSL and then left for fnatic.. that's all Coach Lee needs. It's not like he was a free agent and TSL couldn't match the offer or something.
My point is i've seen enough people lose despite being in the right because the other guy had a bigger stick. It happens. I just hope whoever is right here gets justice.
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On January 18 2012 15:20 Bagration wrote:
Heart too? TSL seems to be on the verge of collapse. They are bleeding players too fast. This might drop them from the top tier of Korean teams. At this point they can barely fill a GSTL roster.
Just like how TSL was on the verge of collapsing after Rain, Tester and Fruitdealer left.
Just like how TSL was on the verge of collapsing after SangHo, Clide and JYP left.
hmm...
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TSL losing another great player once again but I'm glad for Fnatic it's a great choice now only need to get SangHo.
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So.. who is at fault here?
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On January 18 2012 15:22 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:15 Fionn wrote:On January 18 2012 15:14 Bleak wrote:
Coach Lee is like a children that whines because he lost his toys. If you are that concerned about losing your players, then manage your team better, sign contracts that don't let his happen for example. Have you read the thread Alive had a contract. Lee signed his top players (Polt, Alive, Hyun) to contracts following the Pumagate. Listen, there is all this talk about how TSL must be doing something horribly wrong to make his players leave, but this might not be the case, there is another option. I might be wrong but TSL is probably one of the poorer teams, they don't have any huge star players that are fan favorites at all. I assume Puma is making good money from EG, not to mention the money hes made from tournaments. Considering alive is probably quite a bit better than Puma based on his results in the GSL Fnatic probably gave him a ton more than he was getting (if anything) from TSL. TSL doesn't really send a lot of their players to foreign tournaments, and after all every korean wants to be sent abroad to win the easy money, Alive probably knows if Puma can than he can too. Point is it might just be a case of wanting to join a foreign team, which is what Rain did, you could argue that Clide joined another kroean team but if your a terran why would you not want to join slayers. On top of that Slayers probably has a much larger bankroll than TSL does to pay its players. Most of this is speculation but its possible.
TSL is, afaik, one of the richer teams in terms of sponsors, next to SlayerS and ST.
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On January 18 2012 15:22 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:15 Fionn wrote:On January 18 2012 15:14 Bleak wrote:
Coach Lee is like a children that whines because he lost his toys. If you are that concerned about losing your players, then manage your team better, sign contracts that don't let his happen for example. Have you read the thread Alive had a contract. Lee signed his top players (Polt, Alive, Hyun) to contracts following the Pumagate. Listen, there is all this talk about how TSL must be doing something horribly wrong to make his players leave, but this might not be the case, there is another option. I might be wrong but TSL might not be paying alive, or if they are not very much. I assume Puma is making good money from EG, not to mention the money hes made from tournaments. Considering alive is probably quite a bit better than Puma based on his results in the GSL Fnatic probably gave him a ton more than he was getting (if anything) from TSL. TSL doesn't really send a lot of their players to foreign tournaments, and after all every korean wants to be sent abroad to win the easy money, Alive probably knows if Puma can own the foreign scene than he can too. Point is it might just be a case of wanting to join a foreign team, which is what Rain did, you could argue that Clide joined another kroean team but if your a terran why would you not want to join slayers. On top of that Slayers probably has a much larger bankroll than TSL does to pay its players. Most of this is speculation but its possible, but even in sc2 a lot of the time it really is just about the money.
TSL is actually one of the richer Korean teams.
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On January 18 2012 15:24 VirgilSC2 wrote:
TSL is actually one of the richer Korean teams.
I did not know this. Good to know!
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On January 18 2012 15:23 CuSToM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 15:20 Bagration wrote:
Heart too? TSL seems to be on the verge of collapse. They are bleeding players too fast. This might drop them from the top tier of Korean teams. At this point they can barely fill a GSTL roster. Just like how TSL was on the verge of collapsing after Rain, Tester and Fruitdealer left. Just like how TSL was on the verge of collapsing after SangHo, Clide and JYP left. hmm...
To be fair Alive is probably the best player yet to leave TSL, this will be a bad blow.
Also I remembered that TSL was paying its players a salary back when FD was on the team so edited my earlier post, however its possible even probable that when the two most popular TSL players left their sponsorship support started to go down the drain.
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EPT
