EPTGaming as an adult: Are you too slow? - Page 12
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FireSA
Australia555 Posts
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
Would anyone challenge a 25 year old musician's ability to perform his instrument based on his age? Or even a 55 year old for that matter? The only reason this topic keeps getting made is as an excuse for people who have other things going on in their life. Having a kid or two is probably hundreds of times more likely to make you worse at computer games, than gaining 10-20 years is. Even if people are getting theoretically worse at gaming when they age it wouldn't be noticeable by anyone in this thread. We are simply too bad to begin with. | ||
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Everhate
United States640 Posts
In my early teens I developed schizophrenia which has slowly degraded my cognitive function and ability to translate thoughts into actions. It is probable that a percentage of the decline can be attribute to associated complications of the condition, though diet and exercise have remained relatively stable over the years (diet largely due to the marginal paranoia that makes it difficult to eat food I haven't prepared for myself, hah). I'm not entirely certain how well all this dovetails with the topic, but it's something I've been thinking about 'coming out' with for quite some time. Perhaps at some point, I'll try to express exactly how it affects the ability to game properly, though, for the record, with little play time I can still maintain a diamond ranking, and feel I could reach masters with a little dedication. | ||
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
looks like my perceptual ability has already started declining, time to get demoted | ||
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KillZacular
United States1 Post
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SoulWager
United States464 Posts
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JayDee_
548 Posts
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:02 KillZacular wrote: I like how it says "getting old" at 25... Your brain keeps growing and learning long past 30. Does it? Please specify what you mean. If the brain is growing long past 30, why is it that brain mass decreases? How does the brain grow, yet decrease in mass? Are you suggesting there is adult neurogenesis, widespread, at many brain regions, such that new neurons are generated and that these neurons make up for losses in glial cell populations, which is observed in aging organisms? There is some degree of neural plasticity of course, especially during critical developmental periods -- and in particular at cortical regions -- but to suggest that there is significant adult neurogenesis in a general sense is a very bold claim. Truth be told, I can only name two regions where we've recently found evidence for ongoing adult neurogenesis -- the subventricular zone of the olfactory bulb, and the sub-granular zone of the dentate gyrus, which might be a good explanation for how we're able to generate new memories and associate them with happiness. You're right that we are capable of changing the connections in our neuronal networks to some degree, and it's obvious that you can learn past 30 years old, but for simplicity's sake I'd say you're wrong that the brain "grows" long after 30 edit: actually there's a third example of adult neurogenesis in macaque neocortex, but that's very questionable imo | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
edit: ah here is the article http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111227142535.htm granted, this isnt very definitive on the age group that we are looking at here, but the impression that i'm getting is that the difference in the young adult to adult range is very negligable as it is not even brought up in the article. | ||
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Lisitsa
Korea (South)29 Posts
Contrary to what most people have been saying, I definitely feel a slowing down on my 'mouse-manuevering' skills. However, I honestly don't think that it is brain deterioration that is causing it; as stated above I believe it is more of sheer reflex (i.e being able to react to drops spotted at mini-map in time), muscle memory in hands, things as physical as that. While this is a clear disadvantage in the long run, on the other hands, this allows me a deeper understanding of the game, because I am pretty much forced to rely on my decision-making and mindgames to compensate with the lacking speed of execution; mechanics etc. Back in those days I felt more "young", I would have been able to overcome most opponents just by sheer superior macro and multitasking; which is a luxury I do not possess anymore. I do think that older players are at disadvantage, but only because of difference in sheer physical abilities (plus maybe the ability to focus on games for an extended period), not brain capabilities. The area I feel the most extreme difference as I get old is the mini-map reflexes; I simply seem to never be able to see enemy incoming in time, whereas it was hardly the case years ago. | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:33 Lisitsa wrote: I hit my 23rd birthday about a month ago, so I belong to the 'not-so-old' group in the OP. I've been feeling different at times through my almost 10 years of RTS playing. I picked up BW at 2001ish, and at some days dreamed of being a progamer (I was never even close skillwise, obviously). When SC2 came out and I first tried it, I thought I still liked BW more than SC2, but I chose to switch over to SC2 due to it having 'easier' user interface (i.e unlimited numberings, easier hotkeys etc), because at the time I was already feeling that my sheer handspeed was declining; that I could not compete with the younger players with faster hands and better reflexes. Contrary to what most people have been saying, I definitely feel a slowing down on my 'mouse-manuevering' skills. However, I honestly don't think that it is brain deterioration that is causing it; as stated above I believe it is more of sheer reflex (i.e being able to react to drops spotted at mini-map in time), muscle memory in hands, things as physical as that. While this is a clear disadvantage in the long run, on the other hands, this allows me a deeper understanding of the game, because I am pretty much forced to rely on my decision-making and mindgames to compensate with the lacking speed of execution; mechanics etc. Back in those days I felt more "young", I would have been able to overcome most opponents just by sheer superior macro and multitasking; which is a luxury I do not possess anymore. I do think that older players are at disadvantage, but only because of difference in sheer physical abilities (plus maybe the ability to focus on games for an extended period), not brain capabilities. The area I feel the most extreme difference as I get old is the mini-map reflexes; I simply seem to never be able to see enemy incoming in time, whereas it was hardly the case years ago. Your hands don't slow down at 23, end of story. Go watch a professional pianist. That's just not it. There are a million reasons why you get worse as you get older, mostly to do with less play time, but slower hands is not one of them. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
1. Women 2. Life 3. Get lazy because you got $ ....25. Age | ||
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Lisitsa
Korea (South)29 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:38 worldsnap wrote: Your hands don't slow down at 23, end of story. Go watch a professional pianist. That's just not it. There are a million reasons why you get worse as you get older, mostly to do with less play time, but slower hands is not one of them. Well, I play piano, and I know what you're talking about. I don't think computer games and piano playing is exactly in the same category, though. I would say the difference between those two cases is the need for 'reflexes' - as for piano playing you need extreme preparation but there is no 'opponents' so it does not require fast reaction time. I guess I went the wrong way mentioning handspeed - where I am feeling the declining is mostly focused on reflex time (as mentioned, minimaps in particular). | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:30 FrankWalls wrote: I think I remember seeing a study just a few days ago that said that there is very little brain decline as someone gets older. I think the decline we see in some progamers is more of a "wear and tear" thing than an age thing edit: ah here is the article http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111227142535.htm granted, this isnt very definitive on the age group that we are looking at here, but the impression that i'm getting is that the difference in the young adult to adult range is very negligable as it is not even brought up in the article. The thesis of this article is that the older you get, the more you prefer accuracy over speed. This would explain Boxer and White-Ra's amazing decision making. | ||
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LicHmacrO
9 Posts
I played Warcraft 3 for several years starting at age 14, and after a few years of playing I was a damn good undead player. One of the things I noticed on a personal level was that my skill depended more on my emotion than being mentally sharp (although mental clarity was very important). There were days I could not lose, and conversely, days where I could not win, it was a roller coaster ride from wanting to quit playing the game altogether to hilarious ownage and wanting to never stop clicking "search game". I began going to tournaments at the age of 15, local tournaments mostly, but I typically placed well in the tournaments (top three or top five). However as time went on, my average finishing place in tournaments began to decline (top 16, top 8, etc), specifically around a year after the release of the Frozen Throne, at which point I stopped going to tournaments and playing entirely from 2004 to 2005. Million Man LAN 5 in 2006 had a Frozen Throne tournament and I decided what the heck, and spent three months to practice. I played better than I had ever played before; my apm was up dramatically, my decision making was better, and most importantly, I was no longer afraid to lose. My hands didnt tremble during fights, and that had a major impact on the increase of my skill. I didnt win the tournament (Third), but my stress level was nearly nonexistent in comparison to previous years of playing the game, and it felt so relaxing to finally love the game that I had formerly played because I loved playing it. After MML5 I picked the game up again and quickly realized that I was not going to be able to be better than what I did at MML5, but I stuck with it and continued to be more and more frustrated at the game. It seemed as though I was too narrow minded in regards to the mechanics and strategies of the game and I hit a skill plateau that I could not get past, and quit WC3 for good in 2006. .I feel that my work and education were also getting more and more in the way About four years later, I get an invite to the SC2 beta. I quickly realized that the game was MUCH MUCH different than the RTS I was accustomed to, but the base mechanics (micro, macro, multitasking, etc) were still rather similar, and was able to pick up on the game rather quickly. I played nonstop until the end of the beta and a few months through release, finishing the beta in high 1v1 diamond. As the SC2 retail released I began to catch myself making silly mistakes and or just simply not thinking fast/clearly enough. It almost seemed like I was bored with the game, much like how my experience with WC3 was. TLDR: I guess what I am trying to get at is age has had a very negligible factor in my overall skill, but my frustration with a game plays a MASSIVE role in my skill progression EDIT: I kinda forgot to answer the question.. lol >.< My mouse speed has slowed down, but I feel that its because I am getting better at judging pointer travel distance and am able to make more precise clicks, I have used a logitech MX518 since 2004, andI replaced it with another MX518 last year.. Plenty of time to learn to see the difference in dpi settings. My keyboard speed has slowed down more than anything though, and im currently looking for a new keyboard or something that would give me a better comfort level while playing with both hands on the keyboard.. I used to be able to get away with playing left hand only on the keyboard in WC3.. it seems like I cant do that in SC2 efficiently | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On January 04 2012 04:02 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's also true that ultra-marathoners tend to be older than their traditional marathon-runner counterparts. Some things really do seem to improve with age, others not. It's all very interesting to me! You might find it interesting that in the Opera world, that depending on your voice, there's a wide range of when your 'prime' is. For the Tenor/Soprano, it tends to be a little earlier, but the Alto/Bass, their voices sometimes don't fully develop until they are in their 40's. Of course genetics play a variable role in thiss On January 04 2012 12:46 Lisitsa wrote: Well, I play piano, and I know what you're talking about. I don't think computer games and piano playing is exactly in the same category, though. I would say the difference between those two cases is the need for 'reflexes' - as for piano playing you need extreme preparation but there is no 'opponents' so it does not require fast reaction time. I guess I went the wrong way mentioning handspeed - where I am feeling the declining is mostly focused on reflex time (as mentioned, minimaps in particular). I'll agree that comparing cognitive functions with regards to being a musician and playing SC is somewhat different, but making the jump towards psycho-motoric skills impairing ones ability to play, whether it's music or starcraft, sorry not going there. You're trying to clump two separate functions as a singular one. Let's put it this way, you need two 'actions' in order to move an extremidy, the cognitive action of registering/saying 'wtf/move' and the physical action of moving it. barring any accidents or impairments (see diseases, medical conditions, surgeries, etc), there is no reason why psycho-motoric, e.g. physical skills should ever impair ones reaction time (see the Artur Rubinstein example given). And in regards to cognitive abilities, these discrepancies are minute and likely won't matter for a good long time in a healthy individual. So what you're describing for yourself is the cognitive function, not the physical one, or maybe you feel it's both, but I guarantee you the psycho-motoric action isn't the one hindering you. | ||
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Peanutbutter717
United States240 Posts
People have expressed concerns for their favorite progamers who are getting up there in age. Players like Nada, Boxer, and other longtime pros come to mind in particular. Is it true that perhaps they've lost some skill due to a "slowdown" of the brain? Didn't Boxer just get back into Code A? I mean there are older people playing professional sports such as Teemu Selanne, he is 41 and he still carries his team from time to time. (The Ducks aren't too good this year :/) I think you should highlight your TL:DR more, just because you are 25 does not mean you will lose your starcraft skill. Edit: Idk if this source is trustworthy, but afaik the frontal cortex (judgement and decision making) matures until 25. + Show Spoiler + http://www.examiner.com/parenting-education-in-newark/a-child-s-brain-fully-develops-by-age-25 Always gotta show some sources when making points  | ||
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Musketeer
142 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:33 Lisitsa wrote: I hit my 23rd birthday about a month ago, so I belong to the 'not-so-old' group in the OP. I've been feeling different at times through my almost 10 years of RTS playing. I picked up BW at 2001ish, and at some days dreamed of being a progamer (I was never even close skillwise, obviously). When SC2 came out and I first tried it, I thought I still liked BW more than SC2, but I chose to switch over to SC2 due to it having 'easier' user interface (i.e unlimited numberings, easier hotkeys etc), because at the time I was already feeling that my sheer handspeed was declining; that I could not compete with the younger players with faster hands and better reflexes. Contrary to what most people have been saying, I definitely feel a slowing down on my 'mouse-manuevering' skills. However, I honestly don't think that it is brain deterioration that is causing it; as stated above I believe it is more of sheer reflex (i.e being able to react to drops spotted at mini-map in time), muscle memory in hands, things as physical as that. While this is a clear disadvantage in the long run, on the other hands, this allows me a deeper understanding of the game, because I am pretty much forced to rely on my decision-making and mindgames to compensate with the lacking speed of execution; mechanics etc. Back in those days I felt more "young", I would have been able to overcome most opponents just by sheer superior macro and multitasking; which is a luxury I do not possess anymore. I do think that older players are at disadvantage, but only because of difference in sheer physical abilities (plus maybe the ability to focus on games for an extended period), not brain capabilities. The area I feel the most extreme difference as I get old is the mini-map reflexes; I simply seem to never be able to see enemy incoming in time, whereas it was hardly the case years ago. When Valentina Lisitsa is still tearing it up 20 years from now, remember this post! | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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