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On January 01 2012 06:40 phyren wrote:
The issue, at least currently, is that most end game battles tend to be quite one sided depending on how effective a few skills wind up being. Whoever takes the big maxed battle usually has a good clump of units left over and can proceed to gather up some reinforcements and just win. In this scenario, the 6 zealots in the main battle are much more important than any harassment.
My thoughts exactly. any time you hit their probes, if you havent actually won the main and ONLY main fight in the game, you end up on the backfoot trying to gather and attack with whtaever units you can mass. they get steamrolled being a smaller group, and then ur done.
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On January 01 2012 06:04 Gl!tch wrote:
But what if the protoss player wanted to get more out of his units? I would suggest that this is entirely possible, simply by removing them from battle. Lets say the same battle occured, but with 6 less zealots. Instead, a warp prism droped 4 zealots in the Terrans newly saturated third base during the battle. Those 4 zealots are worth more to the protoss now than the original 6 in the battle. Alot more, I would argue.
As for the discussion, try to come up with ways to get more out of a unit. Preferably not along the lines of "well, I will stutter step my marines". Think about compositions that would get more out of certain units that support eachother, think about positioning, flanks, multi-pronged attacks, timing, the surprise factor of a hidden tech path. Get more out of your units.
Apologies if poorly written and or too long.
So you are saying that in sc2 you get more use out of your units by making smart decisions? Okey...well...that was in bw to and that is not what Day9 wants. Day9 wants to get more from units with micro. And if micro is gona be replaced with smart and creative decision making on what to do with units, no thank you.
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I feel like two zealots are even enough for the OP's idea. Huk made that pretty clear in PvP with proxy pylon's warping in two zealots and using defender's advantage to make up for the two lost units.
I've been really curious why in a game where splash damage is such an important thing, why people don't do unit splits like marines do against banelings as much. One example that comes to mind is late game PvP with Colo vs blink stalker. Why don't we see people doing blink stalker splitting against large numbers of colo to get an incredibly wide and spread group of units to minimize splash?
Late game PvT, why aren't protoss splitting units like crazy against terran ghosts? We'll see pro's do small splits like 3 groups but why not split up into an even wider spread? Same thing goes for how protoss had trouble with infestors for a while with colo/voidray/stalker army because the entire army was the width of two fungals. Maybe the solution to emp is clump up a lot less.
Just some thoughts, and I'll admit that it could be that it's not worth it but personally, I feel that one of the big things that will happen within the next 3-5 years will be people splitting their units a LOT better. Both pre-battle and mid-battle.
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On January 01 2012 06:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
...And if micro is gona be replaced with smart and creative decision making on what to do with units, no thank you.
You do realize that sc2 is a real time STRATEGY game right? Perhaps you should play League of Legends if all you want to do is micro.
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With how the game has developed so far, I totally agree with Day9.
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Obviously BW had a higher skill ceiling regarding microing units, which is different than saying that sc2 has no room at all for a better player to get an advantage over a lesser one. You still don`t see all pros doing close to perfect micro (flanks, spread, focus fire, perfect accuracy on spells, etc); until that happens, it doesn`t make much sense to complain about a lower skill ceiling. The warp prism + immortal against roaches is a great example. It`s rare to see someone doing that in a big battle, which they should if they were really good.
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Day 9 was right IMO. This game is to easy so the good players and even OK players are all similar in unit control and macro. The game is really decided by decision making and scouting it seems like. I really do miss being blown away playing against a player that could really micro reavers really good or someone that could always get all the mines down out of a group of vultures in a flash. Probably the most irritating thing now is how noob friendly Psi Strorm is. BW storm was really really good but really really hard to use haha so I would concede to the fact that when i lose all my hydra to some good storming that guy out played me in that fight. Now its like wow he just cast 8 storms at once no impressed at all add some colossus next time so u literally can 1 a afk me.
BW seemed much more rewarding when you did a sick play or even got beat by one. Now I feel like anything I see or that I can do anyone can do. It doesn't take hours of practice to learn to micro HT or Colossus or any of that crap.
I will say though if there is one thing that can be challenging it would be marine splitting but when that is the only thing off the top of my head that I can come up with that sorta sucks.
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On January 01 2012 07:03 Xlancer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 06:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
...And if micro is gona be replaced with smart and creative decision making on what to do with units, no thank you. You do realize that sc2 is a real time STRATEGY game right? Perhaps you should play League of Legends if all you want to do is micro.
exactly. I want a game more like BW. Micro can really up your unit uses well, but making good strategic decisions and using units in tactical and strategic ways are what players want.
why do you think they upped the shields on warp prism, lancer?
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On January 01 2012 07:03 Xlancer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 06:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
...And if micro is gona be replaced with smart and creative decision making on what to do with units, no thank you. You do realize that sc2 is a real time STRATEGY game right? Perhaps you should play League of Legends if all you want to do is micro.
He clearly did not say that all he wants is micro. Imagine Starcraft as a purely strategical game. Every time the same decision is made under the same circumstances, it would have to have the same outcome. Oh, he put that bunker down outside my fast expand at that specific place and time.. I now lose because I can't change the outcome of his decision or this wouldn't be a purely strategical game. That works well for some games, but it would make Starcraft incredibly boring.
In BW, if you have 20 Zerglings, 4 Lurkers, and some left over Mutalisks from earlier and your opponent has three sieged tanks, a dozen marines and a few medics, there are endless ways for that engagement to play out that could result in an even trade or a landslide victory from either side, especially considering terrain. In SC2 it's still there, but to a much smaller degree in the vast majority of cases.
The picking up zealots and dropping them as harrassment during a battle is an example of decision making. In BW, if a protoss decided to do some shuttle/reaver harrass during a battle, they would have endless options due to the freedom in control of the shuttle and reaver. A thousand different players would have a thousand different outcomes in that situation due to the skill required and the freedom of choice in specifics of how you do the harassment, even though they all made the same decision.
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i get what you are saying man, zerg has the most potential for this, terran comes second, finally protoss. i think making your units cost more are harasses or building sniping, when you engage in battles you need every unit you can get, splitting armies is too risky for mediocre players, i think in the future we will see more of splitting armies.
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Just some micro-stuff i can think of, that i see hardly in pro play:
- Nydus loading units in and out (dragon did some cool stuff with mass queens + leenocks queen infusion on nydus in blizzard cup)
- Burrow micro (Burrowing damaged units, like blinking hurt stalkers - sniping detection and protecting own detection /forcing scans)
- Overlord drop/pickup (Flanking+Pickup hurt units- especially effective with mass overlord above main battle)
- I noticed that terran tank/rine armies get really wide spread when they get into postion - thats great - but miss see someone move them nicely spread yet (for example to avoid to get caught off guard by banes - 1a2a3a to 3 parallel points instead of 1a to one point)
- i feel like banshees get microed quite a bit to be more effective, but theres a lot room for more effectiveness
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Totally agreed with Day9. All you need to do is consider how much less rewarding micro is in this game by looking at player skill differences. Take MKP. I don't know about you, but some high skilled NA/EU GM could probably beat him 2-3/10 games reliably. Compare Brood War. An A- player would be lucky to take ONE game in a hundred off of Flash. Why? Because APM means so much more in that game. Training yourself to play at 700 APM affects every stage of the game; not just splitting against banelings.
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On January 01 2012 06:10 triforks wrote:
i think more terrans should be repairing there mech. it should be standard to include a handful of scvs with any army that can be repaired.
please please please please please tell me u r trolling cuz if u are being serious then u havent played or been around sc2 since like early beta when people found auto repair and mass thors O_O
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On January 01 2012 06:17 Gl!tch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 06:13 pulpSC wrote:On January 01 2012 06:07 Gl!tch wrote:On January 01 2012 06:05 VPCursed wrote:
Oh, so there are no tricks in sc2? Why, my argument is exactly the opposite.  I think he is referring to your comment that literally is, "But in SC2, these tricks don't exist anymore." Yes, i meant that Reaver drops and making your workers mine well and muta clustering don't exist anymore, but that there are new tricks to be discovered. Sorry, will edit.
You can make your workers mine better my stacking on close minerals.
Remember last year how much people said sc2 will never have all the tricks bw had? I think we're finding tons now. I mean just look at warp prism ussage, esp speed warp prisms with collosi, or storm drops. Or PvZ these days, which is basically a huge harass fest when the z goes muta. Man o man this game is so awesome <3
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On January 01 2012 07:53 Shiori wrote:
Totally agreed with Day9. All you need to do is consider how much less rewarding micro is in this game by looking at player skill differences. Take MKP. I don't know about you, but some high skilled NA/EU GM could probably beat him 2-3/10 games reliably. Compare Brood War. An A- player would be lucky to take ONE game in a hundred off of Flash. Why? Because APM means so much more in that game. Training yourself to play at 700 APM affects every stage of the game; not just splitting against banelings.
I don't agree with your comment about MKP at all. The top of the NA gm ladder right now is Kyhol, all praise to him but I've hardly heard of him and I doubt he'd take a single game off mkp.
Plus your argument falls apart when you realize MKP has an 80% winrate against the KR gm ladder. Which is actually absurd considering it's not hardcore play, it's fucking ladder!
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On January 01 2012 08:02 Oreo7 wrote:
You can make your workers mine better my stacking on close minerals.
I think that's exactly what Day[9] was on about - you can still improve how useful each unit is, but not to the same extent as in Brood War. For example, stacking them on close minerals gives you (IIRC) 7% extra minerals from that base (until you reach saturation). That's well within Day[9]'s guesstimated number of 1.55x, with x being the baseline usefulness of a unit a-moved. Brood War's coefficient here could stretch far higher than 1.55, which is what Day[9] was saying.
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On January 01 2012 07:53 Shiori wrote:
Totally agreed with Day9. All you need to do is consider how much less rewarding micro is in this game by looking at player skill differences. Take MKP. I don't know about you, but some high skilled NA/EU GM could probably beat him 2-3/10 games reliably. Compare Brood War. An A- player would be lucky to take ONE game in a hundred off of Flash. Why? Because APM means so much more in that game. Training yourself to play at 700 APM affects every stage of the game; not just splitting against banelings.
Yah, well said. The fact is, in SC2 you only need to have basic macro skills (infinitely easier with automine/MBS/better hotkeys). If you can follow a build, you probably can win games vs much better players, especially in the more volatile matchups like PvP and TvP. In BW there was always a way to defeat a badly controlled army with a smaller army, even in PvP and ZvZ. That's why it's so damn hard for a bad player to win without doing allin cheese..
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On January 01 2012 08:04 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 07:53 Shiori wrote:
Totally agreed with Day9. All you need to do is consider how much less rewarding micro is in this game by looking at player skill differences. Take MKP. I don't know about you, but some high skilled NA/EU GM could probably beat him 2-3/10 games reliably. Compare Brood War. An A- player would be lucky to take ONE game in a hundred off of Flash. Why? Because APM means so much more in that game. Training yourself to play at 700 APM affects every stage of the game; not just splitting against banelings. I don't agree with your comment about MKP at all. The top of the NA gm ladder right now is Kyhol, all praise to him but I've hardly heard of him and I doubt he'd take a single game off mkp. Plus your argument falls apart when you realize MKP has an 80% winrate against the KR gm ladder. Which is actually absurd considering it's not hardcore play, it's fucking ladder!
MKP is extremely mortal. You're missing the point, though. In a tournament, any of the non-pros that account for MKP's ladder losses almost certainly wouldn't win. But that doesn't mean they can't play on the same level as him. It was literally not conceivable to play on the same level as Flash/Jaedong/etc even if you were a top tier foreign player. 80% is nothing compared to the fact that top BW pros have been known to have that same sort of winrate in tournaments. It's not that they were simply magically better than the opposition. In terms of playing and practicing, all the top pros were doing similar things; but how much does talent matter in Sc2? I love this game as much as anyone else, but I firmly believe that basically anyone of suitable physical and mental fortitude can play at a fairly high (i.e. GM) level in Sc2.
To some extent, this is due to the youngness of Sc2, but it was clear from the outset in BW that micro = huge benefits. Every. Single. Engagement. Compare Sc2: it ultimately doesn't matter if you play with the best control in the world, Marauders are gonna roll Stalkers, and so on. That's why Sc2 is becoming so focused on opening properly and trying to scout so much that you don't get hard countered blindly. That shouldn't be part of this game. You know what's frustrating? When you're completely aware of how you want a battle to play out, you should be able to make things work with virtually any units given some threshold of micro. You CANT do this in Sc2 right now, or at least not very often. There's some really nice mechanics: blink micro, marine splitting, warp prism HTs, etc. But in 9/10 scenarios, these are either not influential enough to help you come back from a weak scenario or completely unnecessary because the game is a walkover anyway.
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If you want a very easy example to think of how deep controlling certain BW units can be just look at the terms used for certain players. Jangbi storms. Jaedong mutalisks. Fantasy vultures. Just a few examples, but these players are so proficient with these particular units that they become their trademarks. They are able to bring those units to a whole new level of efficiency. And that kind of expertise with a particular unit comes from hours and hours of practice and experience.
In SC2 do we see any players claim a unit in a similar fashion? I can't think of any examples. Instead we see players known for their various styles and strategies primarily; something BW players were known for ON TOP of their fantasy unit control.
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BW's bad UI caused an extremely high ceiling cap which is exactly why the game never got too popular in America.
To most people, SC:BW, and SC2, is just a video game. Watching someone have good micro of their workers and good control of their limited 12 person groups was just not that impressive or entertaining. Think of any other sport or video game, and think of the miniscule, mundane tasks/objectives that make a difference that you find stupid. That would be the micro that BW spawned. Yeah, it's impressive to people who appreciate the game and see how difficult that is. But to everyone else, its silly. What made BW and SC2 actually entertaining and impressive? The strategy.
Every game and every task that requires some form of skill has these "micro" requirements. The kinds of tasks that takes days upon days of practice to master. For example, in baseball, if you think about the pitcher. Lets say he has a slider, curveball, 2 seam fastball, 4 seam fast ball, and a change-up. Now, the pitcher has to decide where to place the ball, with what pitch, depending on the playstyle of the batter itself (your opponent) and the current count.
So, how does this relate back to the BW micro? well, the pitcher's form is extremely important to the quality of your pitch. Someone who has practiced 1000 days worth of throwing is going to have better form than someone who's only done 800 days worth of practice. So who is the better pitcher? well, even if the 800 days pitcher can't hide the ball as he throws as well, or make balks sometimes, if he's making the better strategic decisions on what to throw and where to throw, he's going to be the one throwing the batters out.
point is, yes the micro is impressive and it's great and all, but the essence of this game and the truly impressive skills I respect and love about this game is the intense, difficult, fast-paced strategy behind it.
everything has their difficult practice-consuming skills you must master to be the best of the best in your specific task. What makes SC special is the strategy that comes with it!
cant edit, have to go  hopefully it makes sense
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EPT
