Heart Of The Swarm: The Pro's Opinions - Page 2

On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments.

On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments.

On December 03 2011 07:35 noxn wrote:


Sure, but I've seen the same thing before in other games. When someone "at the top" complains, then someone will say "if the game is so bad, then how come nestea and mvp have won so many championships? seems pretty consistent/balanced to me".

it's a bit of a catch 22.

anyway, there's nothing wrong with what cloud said. you don't have to be amongst the top 5 players in the world to have a valid opinion on the game. plus, as someone who came from wow - I can see why he's concerned. Blizzard is known for having killed the competitive aspect of WoW back in wotlk when they added all kinds of new jazz, realized how broken it was half a year later, and failed to balance it.

On December 03 2011 07:44 Skyro wrote:


You really shouldn't put much stock into competitive wow. It was never meant/designed to be a competitive game, and it has never gotten close to the level of balance or skill level that SC2 has now.

On December 03 2011 07:47 noxn wrote:


I think you really missed the point. I wasn't saying WoW was the epitome of skill until Blizzard screwed up. I'm saying that a game was perfectly fine until Blizzard screwed it up and the same thing could happen to SC2. Please don't turn this into a WoW vs SC2 debate... -.-

On December 03 2011 07:35 noxn wrote:


Sure, but I've seen the same thing before in other games. When someone "at the top" complains, then someone will say "if the game is so bad, then how come nestea and mvp have won so many championships? seems pretty consistent/balanced to me".

it's a bit of a catch 22.

anyway, there's nothing wrong with what cloud said. you don't have to be amongst the top 5 players in the world to have a valid opinion on the game. plus, as someone who came from wow - I can see why he's concerned. Blizzard is known for having killed the competitive aspect of WoW back in wotlk when they added all kinds of new jazz, realized how broken it was half a year later, and failed to balance it.

On December 03 2011 08:35 Toppp wrote:
Cloud is just a whiner, he was just whining about how Terran requires much more skill mechanics and dedication than the other races.

On December 03 2011 08:32 VanGarde wrote:


I think you and several others are vastly missing the point, whether it is true or not that sc2 is really random and bad players can get good results by "throwing the dice" is a different question. Still one I would argue against with passion. Clouds statement puts it like he stopped playing because it is not worth it, you don't have to be good to get good results, which is just sulking when you have not gotten the results you want and saying "whatever this game is stupid, you can win stuff with random shit so I am not going to bother playing anymore". And yes your results actually do matter. If any of the very top players were to go out and say that the game is too random, I could lose to anyone because in every game I have to throw a dice then that would be a huge statement.

There is a vast difference between saying there is randomness in the game and suggesting that there is no point competing because the game is so random that anyone can win.

On December 03 2011 07:36 Tabbris wrote:

Too be fair he was a pretty good bw player

On December 03 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
Sc2 is already bad enough with all those aoe super powerful no brainer easy to use units (ghost, templar, colo, infestor). Let's add more spellcasting bs on the field so the game gets... worse. This is my opinion and I'm not being a crybaby. If you don't like it don't assume I'm just whining randomly. I'm not blaming my "lack of results" (?!?results that anyway most people who play sc2 all day would love to have) on a bad game since I know it was obviously due to the fact I never liked SC2 for the reasons I stated before so I was never able to enjoy and practice as much as many other tournament winning players. Even if the game is super gamblish and bad players can win against good ones it doesn't mean the very best players in the world are not able to put the results they deserve (and they can still lose to incomparably worse players - watch mlg orlando). Thing is they are gonna add stuff in hots that will probably be sick hard to balance with everything else already and I really wonder if there is any way for units like the oracle or the shredder to not fuck up totally the game. Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope I am just pessimistic and it won't be like this, still it looks pretty grim to me.

edit: and dont call me mid tier foreign player, cause i'm not. thanks.

On December 03 2011 08:44 D_K_night wrote:


Then what changes would you like to see? Blizz needs to hear some actual feedback from the Pros, not just "super gamblish" comments. Is the damage simply too high? Would SC2 benefit from a more "Warcraft 3" type gameplay, but without the spells? Would all the units in general just benefit from an HP/shield buff, so fights last much longer and give everyone a chance to micro more?

I get the sense that you're saying spells like fungal growth, psi storm, and EMP are the cause of much of the downfall of this game, and it needs to move more towards the direction of just more military might vs spell casters. Perhaps the spell casters just in general need to be more de-emphasized, but I just don't know.

That two variables at odds with each other:

- too much spellcasting (requires micro to perform)
- units are too A-move friendly (requires little to no micro to perform)

...which confounds the tightrope between how much micro should be the base minimum, to be allowed success at a high level. If these "bad players" are too successful with their strats, what would you say is the true cause? Is the game too noob friendly?

Anyways sorry that you don't enjoy the game. BW is still going strong and won't be going away anytime soon. I think if you dislike SC2, HOTS won't change your opinion.

On December 03 2011 08:40 aTnClouD wrote:

By giving up on sc2 I just meant I gave up on my hopes for an exciting sequel of SCBW. I didn't give up playing actually I'm playing more than I ever did in the past 2 months. Still, at least from my level of competence, I can see so many worse players winning by making random moves with no logics behind it, even in big tournaments, against players who actually are overall much better and just got unlucky, didn't watch the right screen for a split second cause any aoe in the game is too strong or they simply couldn't scout what was going on so they had to take a game changing blind decision. This happened in SCBW too but to a much, much, much smaller degree, and the fact the game also required to have good mechanics and multitasking allowed the pro scene to weed out many players that couldn't get at the level of the best ones.

On December 03 2011 08:47 aTnClouD wrote:

I think what really ruined the game is the fact units clump way too much and the smart casting system. If units were more spread through the map aoe would be less effective and they would have to balance the game around the basic units (like scbw) rather than on the big spell casting hard counter imba ones. Also fights would last more and it would allow more room for comebacks and good unit placements, and not a-moving huge ass army balls. Hots is not gonna change this so my opinion on the game will still be negative I guess.