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On November 09 2011 18:16 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:13 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
my thoughts concerning the debt.
gus should loan money from a bank or any source. preferably with a legal binding loan agreement.
use the money to pay amanda so she can pay for the tickets in full.
amanda's debts is cleared and relieved of her debt and involvement.
while gus has his own debt to deal with whoever he borrowed from. What collateral does he have to take out a loan though? If he really wanted to help her out, he should have signed a deal in front of the travel agency that shifted the guarantee/debt to him rather than Amanda.
Here, what Gus could do is take out a Cash Advance that is based on his Credit Card Limits from various banks. A lot of different local banks allow this with a monthly interest rate. Hey it's Gus' fault, he should find a way to solve it and this is one of them.
This won't need collateral per se since it is like you put something on credit that is within your card limit. Still I doubt he just has one credit card to his name.
If there is still balance remaining, then he probably has cash he can get his bank account.
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On November 09 2011 18:16 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 17:58 ultramafia wrote:On November 09 2011 17:50 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
she probably works for the travel agency and was a guarantor for the tickets thats why they could get the tickets without the full payment upfront.
the 200,000 out of 715,000 is probably the downpayment. again if thats the case you can see how stupid it would be to put the responsibility of that on herself. I do not understand that to be the common way of business for travel agents. "Hey you pay 25% and if you don't pay the other 75% i'll cover it!!" again makes no sense. and its frankly insulting that donations would be requested. starting to think there alot more behind this than just one idiot. I'm glad you see things so clearly. They should have had you run the event instead. It's true that she was too trusting, but people can be persuaded, people can be tricked. If a guy like Gus is able to go around and tell everyone that he has everything under control, he can easily put pressure on her by making it seem like she is the only one preventing the event from going ahead. With so many people doing so many disconnected things and the criminal holding all the strings, manipulation can be very easy. In order for Amanda to legitimately refuse she would have to take on the huge responsibility of getting in touch with everyone on the project, gathering evidence based on a hunch, uncover Gus's plan, then convince everybody that something fishy is going on. That's actually pretty difficult to do especially when everybody is running around on trust.
Where did i say anything about my ability to run a large scale starcraft 2 event? And this isn't about running the event its about someone taking sole responsibility for over $12,000 worth of plane tickets. I do not want anything bad to happen to her. I also give her the benefit of the doubt in believing that Gus "swindled" her into doing this. However that doesn't excuse the fact that it was incredibly stupid to do and asking the community to donate and clear the matter is nasty. If she did this (whether he pressured her or not) it was a giant mistake by her and there are many other options other than asking for several thousand dollars worth of donations.
In fact we already know that they were given until the 21st to finish the payment so thats precisely what happened. I am only speaking on logic and basic understanding of what not to do as an individual representing an organization. The fact that he conned her into making a giant mistake is very sad but you should not beg the community to bail him out.
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A bunch of people offered Clive monetary donations so the hotel bill can be paid.
I'm guessing Amanda thought it could also work for her.
Problem is:
1. Clive was backed up by a person of good reputation in the community. Amanda has no one as of yet to vouch for her
2. The donated money went straight to TheGunRun's paypal account. Amanda has nothing of this sort set up
3. Money went to the hotel. For Amanda, bit unclear on the money trail
A lot of people are willing to help but everyone is also understandably wary. She needs to tell everyone what happened for transparency's sake and get someone to vouch for her. Also what would happen to the donated money if Gus or some entity would cover for her?
EDIT:
Removed nonfactual, unrelated, possibly misleading statements. Sorry!
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On November 09 2011 18:16 ultramafia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:13 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
my thoughts concerning the debt.
gus should loan money from a bank or any source. preferably with a legal binding loan agreement.
use the money to pay amanda so she can pay for the tickets in full.
amanda's debts is cleared and relieved of her debt and involvement.
while gus has his own debt to deal with whoever he borrowed from. exactly. asking for donations is sickening.... if she took sole responsibility for the tickets then that is unthinkably stupid.
Going to have to agree. While I don't care if anyone else donates, but she fucked up. I'm surprised she even has a job if she has the potential to make mistakes this large. While I hope for the best, hopefully she can also learn to not trust someone like that.
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On November 09 2011 18:30 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:16 ultramafia wrote:On November 09 2011 18:13 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
my thoughts concerning the debt.
gus should loan money from a bank or any source. preferably with a legal binding loan agreement.
use the money to pay amanda so she can pay for the tickets in full.
amanda's debts is cleared and relieved of her debt and involvement.
while gus has his own debt to deal with whoever he borrowed from. exactly. asking for donations is sickening.... if she took sole responsibility for the tickets then that is unthinkably stupid. Going to have to agree. While I don't care if anyone else donates, but she fucked up. I'm surprised she even has a job if she has the potential to make mistakes this large. While I hope for the best, hopefully she can also learn to not trust someone like that.
Maybe he was mating with her? The neurology of monogamous pair bonding is not conducive to rational decision making with respect to that partner.
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Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something?
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inb4 gus takes all the money and flees to another country
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I've been thinking about the issue of why Amanda would be jailed for being unable to pay for her debt then it dawned on me. Did she by any chance issue dated checks as a guarantee of payment? Personal checks under her name expecting Gus would deposit the funds to her account and the checks would clear.
But if the funds weren't there the checks would bounce and the case to filed against her would be estafa which would call for jail time.
If she was not only the guarantor but also issued her own dated personal checks to serve as payment, then she really really trusted way too much.
But if it were like a credit card debt, there would be no jail time. Terms may be arranged with the credit card company for your settlement to have staggered monthly payment scheme etc.
I really don't understand what Amanda got herself into without thinking of the consequences.
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On November 09 2011 18:35 Sky101 wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something?
This never occurred. Someone requested that we start a donation thread when nobody knew about the 21st Nov deadline, then people quoted him.
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On November 09 2011 18:35 Sky101 wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something?
No, she's wants some back up line in case Gus screws her over. She was checking with Dox/YoonYJ to see if David Ting could transfer some of the money he would pay PPSL later.
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On November 09 2011 18:38 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:35 Sky101 wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something? This never occurred. Someone requested that we start a donation thread when nobody knew about the 21st Nov deadline, then people quoted him.
Edit: sorry 'bout that :D
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On November 09 2011 18:38 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:35 Sky101 wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something? This never occurred. Someone requested that we start a donation thread when nobody knew about the 21st Nov deadline, then people quoted him.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283600
EDIT12
a statement from amanda saying she hopes the community can help her out with the money.
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On November 09 2011 18:24 ultramafia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:16 Newbistic wrote:On November 09 2011 17:58 ultramafia wrote:On November 09 2011 17:50 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
she probably works for the travel agency and was a guarantor for the tickets thats why they could get the tickets without the full payment upfront.
the 200,000 out of 715,000 is probably the downpayment. again if thats the case you can see how stupid it would be to put the responsibility of that on herself. I do not understand that to be the common way of business for travel agents. "Hey you pay 25% and if you don't pay the other 75% i'll cover it!!" again makes no sense. and its frankly insulting that donations would be requested. starting to think there alot more behind this than just one idiot. I'm glad you see things so clearly. They should have had you run the event instead. It's true that she was too trusting, but people can be persuaded, people can be tricked. If a guy like Gus is able to go around and tell everyone that he has everything under control, he can easily put pressure on her by making it seem like she is the only one preventing the event from going ahead. With so many people doing so many disconnected things and the criminal holding all the strings, manipulation can be very easy. In order for Amanda to legitimately refuse she would have to take on the huge responsibility of getting in touch with everyone on the project, gathering evidence based on a hunch, uncover Gus's plan, then convince everybody that something fishy is going on. That's actually pretty difficult to do especially when everybody is running around on trust. Where did i say anything about my ability to run a large scale starcraft 2 event? And this isn't about running the event its about someone taking sole responsibility for over $12,000 worth of plane tickets. I do not want anything bad to happen to her. I also give her the benefit of the doubt in believing that Gus "swindled" her into doing this. However that doesn't excuse the fact that it was incredibly stupid to do and asking the community to donate and clear the matter is nasty. If she did this (whether he pressured her or not) it was a giant mistake by her and there are many other options other than asking for several thousand dollars worth of donations. In fact we already know that they were given until the 21st to finish the payment so thats precisely what happened. I am only speaking on logic and basic understanding of what not to do as an individual representing an organization. The fact that he conned her into making a giant mistake is very sad but you should not beg the community to bail him out.
That's fine. I agree with you that we shouldn't start a donation, at least not until everything is laid out and everyone knows what's going on.
I just thought you were a bit harsh repeatedly calling her an idiot. She definitely didn't make the best decisions at the time, but given the circumstances it's understandable why she acted the way she did.
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On November 09 2011 18:39 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:35 Sky101 wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Amanda, or whomever that one woman who is in trouble, publicly ask for donation or something? No, she's wants some back up line in case Gus screws her over. She was checking with Dox/YoonYJ to see if David Ting could transfer some of the money he would pay PPSL later.
Thank you for replying. Will follow more development of this story with interest tomorrow.
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On November 09 2011 18:41 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 18:24 ultramafia wrote:On November 09 2011 18:16 Newbistic wrote:On November 09 2011 17:58 ultramafia wrote:On November 09 2011 17:50 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
she probably works for the travel agency and was a guarantor for the tickets thats why they could get the tickets without the full payment upfront.
the 200,000 out of 715,000 is probably the downpayment. again if thats the case you can see how stupid it would be to put the responsibility of that on herself. I do not understand that to be the common way of business for travel agents. "Hey you pay 25% and if you don't pay the other 75% i'll cover it!!" again makes no sense. and its frankly insulting that donations would be requested. starting to think there alot more behind this than just one idiot. I'm glad you see things so clearly. They should have had you run the event instead. It's true that she was too trusting, but people can be persuaded, people can be tricked. If a guy like Gus is able to go around and tell everyone that he has everything under control, he can easily put pressure on her by making it seem like she is the only one preventing the event from going ahead. With so many people doing so many disconnected things and the criminal holding all the strings, manipulation can be very easy. In order for Amanda to legitimately refuse she would have to take on the huge responsibility of getting in touch with everyone on the project, gathering evidence based on a hunch, uncover Gus's plan, then convince everybody that something fishy is going on. That's actually pretty difficult to do especially when everybody is running around on trust. Where did i say anything about my ability to run a large scale starcraft 2 event? And this isn't about running the event its about someone taking sole responsibility for over $12,000 worth of plane tickets. I do not want anything bad to happen to her. I also give her the benefit of the doubt in believing that Gus "swindled" her into doing this. However that doesn't excuse the fact that it was incredibly stupid to do and asking the community to donate and clear the matter is nasty. If she did this (whether he pressured her or not) it was a giant mistake by her and there are many other options other than asking for several thousand dollars worth of donations. In fact we already know that they were given until the 21st to finish the payment so thats precisely what happened. I am only speaking on logic and basic understanding of what not to do as an individual representing an organization. The fact that he conned her into making a giant mistake is very sad but you should not beg the community to bail him out. That's fine. I agree with you that we shouldn't start a donation, at least not until everything is laid out and everyone knows what's going on. I just thought you were a bit harsh repeatedly calling her an idiot. She definitely didn't make the best decisions at the time, but given the circumstances it's understandable why she acted the way she did.
i don't believe i ever called her an idiot. I even stated in my first post on the subject that i did not intend to be mean or harsh but that the situation did not make sense to me. It is also not my intention to put her down in anyway but to say she made a massive mistake by taking sole responsibility for the $12,000 in tickets whether she was conned or not. Its not always so easy to portray true feelings over the internet. I also question her motives behind what seems to be her request for donations.
EDIT: I also want to say she did not make donation links or come here directly asking for donations. I am mainly just commenting on the situation as many people were suggesting donation threads etc. I interpreted her statement to dox as a request for donations.
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Just thought I'd add something from PPSL's Twitter, posted an hour ago:
Please support us and the PPSL and the awesome set of games that were played. This wouldn't be all possible without Gus leading the way.
If Gus encouraged this, it's despicable. If Gus didn't encourage it.... it's just in bad taste. He hasn't done anything to earn our appreciation quite yet.
Edit: looks like someone already posted this a page back and in the other thread, my bad.
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On November 09 2011 18:50 ThePowerHour wrote:Just thought I'd add something from PPSL's Twitter, posted an hour ago: Show nested quote +
Please support us and the PPSL and the awesome set of games that were played. This wouldn't be all possible without Gus leading the way.
If Gus encouraged this, it's despicable. If Gus didn't encourage it.... it's just in bad taste. He hasn't done anything to earn our appreciation quite yet.
There's only two scenarios I can think of:
- Someone who has access to PPSL Twitter got scabbed by GUS and he's getting revenge by angering the hordes with this posting.
- It's Gus. It takes someone with narcissistic personality disorder or an equivalent damage to the brain to not be able to extrapolate the consequences of their actions in this way. People with this disorder think they're top shit and can't possibly imagine people that don't like them. it's unlikely that an employee under Gus would be so clueless as to do something like this [i.e. two people with some kind of severe personality disorder in the same very tiny organization is unlikely, hence it's parsimonious that it's Gus posting this].
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Ticket agencies are a unique business model. An agent, usually, works for herself within an agency, getting commission on sales made. A client contacts an agent, the agent books the flights or hotels or whatever using agency money. The tickets are then sold to the client with a surcharge for the work the agent did.
As with all business arrangements of this type, customer relations are everything. And, with the invention of online travel sites, travel agencies are rapidly going out of business. It's basically a dying industry, only utilized by the wealthy and corporations. So when you get a client, one that seems to be legit, one that seems to have some juice, you bend over backwards for them.
What Amanda did was not unreasonable. My folks used to use a travel agent some 15 years ago, and the agent would always front them the tickets. Granted, they had a standing business relationship, but it's the same kind of idea. Amanda's mistake was definitely in trusting Gus, but it wasn't that big of a mistake. What she did was standard for her industry.
The reason she might go to jail is, I think, unique to the phillipines. In the states, if you get burned like that, you're on the hook for the money, but you don't get arrested for it. I think what's going on with her is that her company could potentially call it theft and press charges. I really don't see that happening. Her bosses would have to be total dicks to do that. She'll be on the hook for the money, absolutely, and she may very well go to jail, but I can't imagine a scenario, outside of the possiblity that she works for an absolutely horrible person, that it would actually go down that way.
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On November 09 2011 18:56 Shel wrote:
Ticket agencies are a unique business model. An agent, usually, works for herself within an agency, getting commission on sales made. A client contacts an agent, the agent books the flights or hotels or whatever using agency money. The tickets are then sold to the client with a surcharge for the work the agent did.
As with all business arrangements of this type, customer relations are everything. And, with the invention of online travel sites, travel agencies are rapidly going out of business. It's basically a dying industry, only utilized by the wealthy and corporations. So when you get a client, one that seems to be legit, one that seems to have some juice, you bend over backwards for them.
What Amanda did was not unreasonable. My folks used to use a travel agent some 15 years ago, and the agent would always front them the tickets. Granted, they had a standing business relationship, but it's the same kind of idea. Amanda's mistake was definitely in trusting Gus, but it wasn't that big of a mistake. What she did was standard for her industry.
The reason she might go to jail is, I think, unique to the phillipines. In the states, if you get burned like that, you're on the hook for the money, but you don't get arrested for it. I think what's going on with her is that her company could potentially call it theft and press charges. I really don't see that happening. Her bosses would have to be total dicks to do that. She'll be on the hook for the money, absolutely, and she may very well go to jail, but I can't imagine a scenario, outside of the possiblity that she works for an absolutely horrible person, that it would actually go down that way.
Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. This just makes it even worse, if an industry has to resort to that much trust just to stay afloat.
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On November 09 2011 18:56 Shel wrote:
Ticket agencies are a unique business model. An agent, usually, works for herself within an agency, getting commission on sales made. A client contacts an agent, the agent books the flights or hotels or whatever using agency money. The tickets are then sold to the client with a surcharge for the work the agent did.
As with all business arrangements of this type, customer relations are everything. And, with the invention of online travel sites, travel agencies are rapidly going out of business. It's basically a dying industry, only utilized by the wealthy and corporations. So when you get a client, one that seems to be legit, one that seems to have some juice, you bend over backwards for them.
What Amanda did was not unreasonable. My folks used to use a travel agent some 15 years ago, and the agent would always front them the tickets. Granted, they had a standing business relationship, but it's the same kind of idea. Amanda's mistake was definitely in trusting Gus, but it wasn't that big of a mistake. What she did was standard for her industry.
The reason she might go to jail is, I think, unique to the phillipines. In the states, if you get burned like that, you're on the hook for the money, but you don't get arrested for it. I think what's going on with her is that her company could potentially call it theft and press charges. I really don't see that happening. Her bosses would have to be total dicks to do that. She'll be on the hook for the money, absolutely, and she may very well go to jail, but I can't imagine a scenario, outside of the possiblity that she works for an absolutely horrible person, that it would actually go down that way.
Actually this is not the case in the Philippines. It may be a slowly dying industry with the advent of online booking but people do still use them, especially when they need less hassle to arrange for connecting flights.
The only instance it could happen in the Philippines is he had a long standing relationship with the agency or the "guarantor" had a long standing relationship with the agency. So I would say that Amanda named herself as the guarantor and Gus' name was nowhere in the deal if she's that worried of "jail time".
But still it defies logic that a business would simply agree to shoulder the tickets upfront without any long standing relationship with the person/company/entity.
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EPT
