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HOTS is coming out next year.
Wanna bet it will be out in 365 days? You must be new around here.
Also, Browder said multiple times during the panel that we will be able to play a more refined version of HOTS during the next Blizzcon. That's pretty a-fucking clear that HOTS won't be out in a year. Furthermore, D3 is coming out early next year, so you know HOTS won't be coming out at the same time. And, blizz, being blizz... well, that's all you need to know.
What you saw at BlizzCon is as much Alpha as anything we saw of WoL.
You mean the WOL alpha where there was no Raven, but a nomad, where roaches were melee units, where lurkers and reavers existed? Yea, I suppose what I saw at Blizzcon was alpha then. Alpha as fuck.
Blizzard isn't going to add units. They may slot in different abilities. They may cut the Replicator. But they're not going to make entirely new units. Not at this point. Not after introducing all of these.
Watch the TL browder interview, I believe? It's not hard to find him saying they are actively working on other new units.
Also, Nomads weren't removed; they were just renamed Nighthawk (and later Raven) and given a new model. "Melee Roaches" became regular Roaches. Twilight Archons were just regular Archons with Feedback. Purifiers were older versions of Soul Hunters. And Brood Lords are Swarm Lords with a different name/model.
That shows that Blizzard is far more likely to alter a unit than to cut it. So the best you can hope for is that they'll alter the functioning of some units.
Right... Alter, cut, whatever. Point is that nothing is even near complete. WoL just recently was 'balanced'.
I'd rather protoss got given actual strategies rather than a tool which has to be bad to be balanced (ie. cost ineffective). Beyond stealing banshees/other units with important tech I just don't see when it'll pay for itself (maybe medivacs?)
I dont think you understand. The replicator is not meant to be part of the army, and not meant for harass or anything of the sort. It's meant to give Protoss more strategic options. If there comes a single timing attack from the new replicator, or a new strategy, just one, then the unit will have done it's job.
Sure, the unit is pretty worthless. But I can definitely imagine a competitive game where, say, someone replicates a medivac for the lategame. That's one strat. Boom, protoss as a race has improved. That's all the unit is. Protoss army is fine for the most part, Blizz just wants Protoss to have more strategies. Think of it as a new warp prism.
I think it's fundamentally wrong to think that protoss can't harass. Stargate can definitely harass. Robotics can (now) harass. DT's can (sometimes) harass. It's weird that blizzard feels protoss need more harass, and I think the issue is that many of their current options are flawed (DT/Stargate moreso).
DTs and Phoenix are a little too costly and situational, if not gimmicky. The oracle is a solid harass unit that will be relevant all game long.
The thing with the swarm host is it has amazing potential. It could be an amazing defensive unit depending on the speed boost on creep (for the spawns). It could be a great unit to force engagements/place pressure on the opponent. It could even be an amazing unit for harass - drop a single swarm host in a terran base and kill a bunch of production, as well as a scan, for only 200/100 (currently). That's fucking awesome design.
I wasn't discussing balance. It's no secret that the swarm host is no combat unit and is quite 'shitty'. It's an extremely niche unit was my point. I was also saying that Protoss got the good end in HOTS, not zerg. Hell even terran got more than zerg did ;/
Anyways most of what you say about the swarm host is straight up wrong as well. It's not too tough (it's not paper though), and quite slow. The swarmlings aren't super fast either, although quite strong. You won't kill any buildings with anything less than like 10 of these things. The swarmlings die quite quickly, and it's like 20 seconds where nothing is going on because the swarmlings died and the cooldown is going on. It's not like a broodlord where its just go go go go go. Its 7 swarmlings, they die in 10 seconds....20 seconds of nothing... 7 more... repeat. It is not a combat unit, and not a siege unit at all like the lurker. It's meant to put mild pressure on a turtling opponent with free swarmlings. A very cool unit, something zerg definitely needs, but it's not the combat or siege unit you think it is.
Like, think of it as something that makes 7 broodlings every 30-40 seconds. except the broodlings are slower. Yep, just sits there and does nothing for most of the time due to cooldown. Could be changed, but it's no combat unit at all. You just sit it in front of turtles when you contain them.
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On October 27 2011 14:33 HughJorgen wrote:
I thought the primary aim of the new units was to get away from the big balls of death. They specifically said that they don't want to make new units that'll end up in the ball. The Oracle and Shredder in particular. You could argue that the Vyper severely really punishes the a-move a ball of death mentality and most of the other units seem to promote alternate strategies.
I'm really looking forward to the options the new units will bring and I seriously hope that Blizz doesn't nerf all the interesting bits out before release (e.g. the roach)
If Blizzard wants to get away from the whole "big balls of death" as you call it, the first step would be to piss off the Collossi.
The whole reason Toss go for the big balls of death atm revolves around keeping units in front of the Collossi. Can you really blame them that much? This unit requires no mirco other then keeping it at the back of your army while it sits there literally mowing down shit. If blizzard simply removed the collossi and introduced a unit that dosen'T require AS MUCH support and requires MORE micro.... well this is a good start. Secondly, taking the Carrier out? WTF!?!?! Just fix the mechanics of how the units works for cying out loud. If only these 2 things could at the least be done... the race would improve ten fold. By this I don't mean as in being OP, I mean it as in making the Toss race being somewhat exciting to play.
I know I'm not a game developer. I know that I would have no idea how to balance out units. But at least I know what is making the game boring (in regards to the toss race) and where I don't want SC2 to end up.
EDIT: I would also like to add in regards to the zerg race. You just simply cannot have the infestor, baneling, and viper at your disposal. Is it only me that sees the common sense here? Plus, giving zerg a ground siege unit when they already have the Broodlord. This is not as bad and I already have said "still zergy like." I can live with that. I would also like to share that I actually don't like how ultralisks have that unground charge ability, I wouldve preferred to see the ultralisk come charging in stomping all over there own ground units (lings,blings) at the enemy. That wouldv'e been so much awesome to see (of course they may have to buff the ultra a bit if they were to stomp on their own units lol). I mean, Terrans already have a "Holy shit" moment when they see ultras coming for them, let alone an underground charge lol.
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On October 27 2011 14:38 HughJorgen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:29 ZorBa.G wrote:
ok, it's like this people.
Do you want to see a game which is practically HON/DOTA/LOL but en masse?
Or, do you want SC2 to stay more Brood War esque? In this I mean more melee type micro, yes with some abilities of course.
SC2 going in the direction of more of a HON en masse esque type game. That's my opinion anyway.
People keep complaining about others comparing Broodwar to SC2, Yes, of course we don't expect the exact same game, but the fundamentals should still be there plus at least trying to keep in the confines of what made SC1 such an amazing game (referring to the micro intesity of BW). Introducing all of these caster type units IS NOT achieving that.
As far as I'm concerned, if Blizzard wants take SC2 down this path... Don't F*C^ING call it STARCRAFT 2 ANYMORE.
Maybe by miracle, all these units from HoTS maybe introduced at a balanced level and could be viable. But going from SC1 to SC2, it's going to be like "WTF is this game!?!?!?!" I was expecting Starcraft, not WOWcraft.
The only people I can see currently supporting Blizzard in regards to the direction of the game is Zerg.... and honestly.... can you blame them? I wouldn't be complaining either if I could be the race that masses up the quickest whilst having pretty much every ability under the sun to utilise.
As far as the toss race goes, I have no sympathy for you. How about trying something else instead of tunnel visioning your way to a deathball? Just because Koreans only pretty much do 2 base timings since forever. It dosen't mean that it is the only way to play the Toss race! Yes maybe Blizzard has screwed up the race design, but I'm SURE there are other ways to play out this race.
The only race so far that has stayed more true to itself more than others so far is Terran IMO.
Yes, I do main as Terran.... if I was forced to play zerg or toss, I just wouldn't still be playing SC2. So to get this straight you basically want SC2 to stay the same because you play Terran and you enjoy having the only complete, finished race? I can't believe you just accused Z of having every ability under the sun. Did you see the interview with Dustin where he was asked where the gaps in Terran were? And he couldn't think of any? Because there aren't any?
Please show me where I said that I want SC2 to stay the same.
Giving toss the "replicator" that can can morph into any unit it sees. .... Really? What a cop out. A 6 year old kid could come up with that idea. All I see here is, "let's just introduce a unit instead of brainstorming what the race needs, because we just need to make money."
I don't mind that siege ground unit zerg has in HoTS. There is no denying that is zerg-like. But the Flying Deathknight.... oh hang on.... I mean the Viper? I'm sure I don't need to keep typing and I'm sure you know exactly what I'm getting at.
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The way units in SC2 deal damage is why SC2 will never have the insane microing that SC1 had. I dont think i need to explain it to anyone, but SC1's units take a standard amount of damage or have damage mitigated by their armor types. SC2's have units either take a standard amount or take more damage based on armor type. Its not "marauders own stalkers because they survive longer against a stalker", its "marauders own stalkers because they mop them up very quickly"
I guess you could make the argument that SC2 requires more skill because you have to do all the microing at an even faster paced due to how damage is dealt, but even the pros are seeing how difficult it can be to micro this faster damage dealing system. Of course the pros that are dominating SC2 were scrubs compared to the flashes, jaedongs, storks, and bisus of SC1, so maybe we just aren't seeing the godly micro quite yet.
So as of right now SC2 battles are entirely about positioning and the timing of it all.
I also miss the much larger advantages the high ground provided.
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I think that you are right. I honestly like some of the new units but I do not like the burrowed baneling upgrade or the ultra charge upgrade or many of the protoss units/upgrades they all seem either super situational or just super cheesy. I think what SC2 needs to do if they go in this direction of adding more spell casters is that they need to turn smart casting off. Like really. if a zerg goes viper infestor and just fungal/binding cloud and can kill an army for free. But if you have to turn off smart casting then it would be much harder to do that and only someone with very good micro could pull that off and still it wouldnt be able to be used instantly. Also with emp's or storms or even fungals all of those are easily spammable because you don't need to control just shift click it makes it so easy.
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I don't understand how burrowed baneling momement is a bad thing or that it reduces micro. Moving banes under FFs would be pretty sick, but should be ineffective most of the time. Why? Because they have less HP than a zergling or a worker, and any player should have detection by the time zerg has hive. Therefore, a burrow bane will slowly inch over and die without hitting his mark. Dropping banes from Ovies will still be a better method for baneling delivery.
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On October 27 2011 13:56 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:49 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:42 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:38 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:32 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:29 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:20 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:18 Carkis wrote:
I guess all the Protoss hate is gunna remain in SC2 because we will hardly win championships still. The single most annoying thing I hate about SC2 is all the Zerg race supremacy fans/pro/community people have. Its complete non sence and your consider better or cooler if you win a match/championship as Z. No one can deny that You realize protoss and zerg win everything other then Code S right? And MLG, excluding HuKs win... But if you think Terrans dont win MLG then you have an awfully short memory. No I understand terrans win MLG but it's the best terrans in the world that have won lol....not a good argument so you must have a derp memory if I'm not mistakin You make no sense, you say that you discount Terran wins at MLG because they are the 'best Terrans in the worlds' does that mean we discount all of HuK's victories (and face it most big tournent toss wins are from him) just because they are won by (arguably) the best Protoss in the world? Why would having the best players win tournaments discredit their achievement? Sorry buddy you can't just make arbitrary, hypocritical excuses just to suit try and suit your argument lol. But nice 'derp' logic though. All of huks victories are from facing a protoss or a zerg....if MMA, MVP, and or Bomber show up at any tournament 1 of them is winning mostly because there miles ahead of anybody in all match ups. It's commen sense buddy. But all toss players do is look at GSL and scream "omg why can't we win a GSL omg...terran imba imba imba" It's a never ending cycle that will exist forever. Nothing I'm saying is hypocritical...just true. Your comments are just through anger that I'm right and you sir...are wrong. Someday you will grasp it but today is not that day So what you are saying is HuK can only win against Zerg or Protoss, and if he vs a Terran he will lose...are you trying to imply Terran is OP or are you just not very good at expressing yourself? I guess it's just coincidence that all the 'best' players happen to play Terran right? I don't even see where you are trying to go with this. But ok you keep making up stupid excuses to try justified your flawed 'logic', if it helps you sleep at night then I won't take it away from you. Settle down troll....hopefully you get banned you moron. Terrans get destroyed in every freaking event other then GSL. Your just a sad gold protoss player that's pissed that you're in gold. It's hokay buddy! My point is look at the brackets at MLG...tell me how terran players do other then koreans. GO TELL ME BRO...TELL ME. Terran isn't OP...just more developed. Naniwa said it today that he's sick of hearing toss players crying Imba. The games a year old and terran hasn't even dominated anything lol. Just stop talking with your "Flawed logic" I hope this post helps you sleep at night bro... Also, HuK destroyed every terran he played at MLG....and so did other toss players. Just check the brackets. all I'm saying.
I must agree. Terrans suck for the most part - outside the very top levels in Korea. Euro Terrans don't win anything, and NA Terrans ... Do they even exist? Where are they?
If Korea wasn't the center of the E-sports universe we'd be asking, when are the Terran Buffs coming? They can't win anything. When was the last time a Non-Korean Terran won a big event? It was Thorzain in TSL3. Almost a year ago.
Protoss isn't as far behind as all the talk and Terran isn't as far ahead. They're actually very close.
With respect to HOTS, I understand Blizzard has a game to sell, and lets be honest, making a bunch of cool new units that they can market is more important to cooperate executives than whether or not the balance is right.
However, we hear at TL, and the greater SC community have purer motives. We want an awesome game first and foremost. So a discussion about the direction Blizzard is taking in HOTS is very appropriate.
I'm not sure if Blizzard pays any attention to the community, I'm sure they do at least a little. If they're getting a lot of negative feedback about their current direction and we can influence them at all, then good for us. Discussion is always good.
I'm sure there are a lot of heated conversations around the board room at Blizzard head quarters between the marketing guys and the designers who want a better game. If Browder and company can show evidence from community feedback like ours, as well as others, and tilt the balance a little more in our direction, the again, we've done our job.
Then again, they may pay no attention to what we think at all. But i like to think we have some influence as a community. Lets be honest, does it not appear that at least David kim and the balance team are doing a much better job the last few months? The last few patches have been excellent including 1.4.2 with the Toss Upgrade buffs and ghost nurfs that were likely needed.
So even though I think BW is a far superior game right now, and have my doubts about the new HOTS units, it'll work itself out.
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On October 27 2011 15:26 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:56 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:49 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:42 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:38 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:32 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:29 Ryder. wrote:On October 27 2011 13:20 VPVash wrote:On October 27 2011 13:18 Carkis wrote:
I guess all the Protoss hate is gunna remain in SC2 because we will hardly win championships still. The single most annoying thing I hate about SC2 is all the Zerg race supremacy fans/pro/community people have. Its complete non sence and your consider better or cooler if you win a match/championship as Z. No one can deny that You realize protoss and zerg win everything other then Code S right? And MLG, excluding HuKs win... But if you think Terrans dont win MLG then you have an awfully short memory. No I understand terrans win MLG but it's the best terrans in the world that have won lol....not a good argument so you must have a derp memory if I'm not mistakin You make no sense, you say that you discount Terran wins at MLG because they are the 'best Terrans in the worlds' does that mean we discount all of HuK's victories (and face it most big tournent toss wins are from him) just because they are won by (arguably) the best Protoss in the world? Why would having the best players win tournaments discredit their achievement? Sorry buddy you can't just make arbitrary, hypocritical excuses just to suit try and suit your argument lol. But nice 'derp' logic though. All of huks victories are from facing a protoss or a zerg....if MMA, MVP, and or Bomber show up at any tournament 1 of them is winning mostly because there miles ahead of anybody in all match ups. It's commen sense buddy. But all toss players do is look at GSL and scream "omg why can't we win a GSL omg...terran imba imba imba" It's a never ending cycle that will exist forever. Nothing I'm saying is hypocritical...just true. Your comments are just through anger that I'm right and you sir...are wrong. Someday you will grasp it but today is not that day So what you are saying is HuK can only win against Zerg or Protoss, and if he vs a Terran he will lose...are you trying to imply Terran is OP or are you just not very good at expressing yourself? I guess it's just coincidence that all the 'best' players happen to play Terran right? I don't even see where you are trying to go with this. But ok you keep making up stupid excuses to try justified your flawed 'logic', if it helps you sleep at night then I won't take it away from you. Settle down troll....hopefully you get banned you moron. Terrans get destroyed in every freaking event other then GSL. Your just a sad gold protoss player that's pissed that you're in gold. It's hokay buddy! My point is look at the brackets at MLG...tell me how terran players do other then koreans. GO TELL ME BRO...TELL ME. Terran isn't OP...just more developed. Naniwa said it today that he's sick of hearing toss players crying Imba. The games a year old and terran hasn't even dominated anything lol. Just stop talking with your "Flawed logic" I hope this post helps you sleep at night bro... Also, HuK destroyed every terran he played at MLG....and so did other toss players. Just check the brackets. all I'm saying. I must agree. Terrans suck for the most part - outside the very top levels in Korea. Euro Terrans don't win anything, and NA Terrans ... Do they even exist? Where are they? If Korea wasn't the center of the E-sports universe we'd be asking, when are the Terran Buffs coming? They can't win anything. When was the last time a Non-Korean Terran won a big event? It was Thorzain in TSL3. Almost a year ago. Protoss isn't as far behind as all the talk and Terran isn't as far ahead. They're actually very close.
yay someone who actually understood what I was getting at other then somebody just BMing me and saying "my logic is arbitrary"
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. Secondly, taking the Carrier out? WTF!?!?! Just fix the mechanics of how the units works for cying out loud. If only these 2 things could at the least be done... the race would improve ten fold. By this I don't mean as in being OP, I mean it as in making the Toss race being somewhat exciting to play.
The carrier is fine. The problem is the role. When Terran starts going mass siege tanks in lategame PvT like they did in BW, then you will see carriers. Since that doesn't happen, I'd much rather have the carrier replaced with something useful. Or, they could get rid of the marauder, immortal, and colossi so that protoss PvT becomes BW again.
Plus, giving zerg a ground siege unit when they already have the Broodlord. This is not as bad and I already have said "still zergy like."
The Swarm Host is not a siege unit at all. You haven't played the new units, you don't know what you are talking about.
It's a niche unit. It's only useful when Zerg has a huge fucking lead and the opponent is turtling, and the Zerg has a huge army contain to prevent the opponent from just going to kill the swarm hosts. It puts on mild pressure, but it will do nothing to win or lose games, it just gives Zerg options. At the moment, if the opponent goes 2 base turtle, Zerg can't do anything except expand, even if it's Masters vs Bronze.
You just simply cannot have the infestor, baneling, and viper at your disposal.
Different units. You cannot have forcefield, with colossi and storm, right? Viper allows Zerg to attack into entrenched positions, it's not as great in a battle in the open when the opponent can just pull back
I don't mind that siege ground unit zerg has in HoTS.
ITS NOT A SIEGE UNIT! THIS ISN'T SWARM HOST = LURKER!!!!
Thread needs to be closed, this thread is horrible. It's a bunch of people bitching about something that isn't even in alpha yet, isn't even coming out in a year, that blizzard has specifically said they made certain units OP on the test floor to prove concept, that more units are still even going to be added, that blizz specifically said was untested because they just wanted feedback first and they wanted to try a lot of new things, more than they had time to balance.
On top of that, it seems like no one went to blizzcon (obviously) so people are arguing about units they have no clue about. Only people who were even at blizzcon should be arguing, if at all. People keep thinking the swarm host is like an ACTUAL combat unit - it's not, it fills no army purpose at all! In reality, its a unit that is completely unnecessary - it just means when Zerg is winning, and the opponent is turtling, they can apply pressure. It won't mean anything in an actual close game. Yes, the tempest is OP, that's how it was released. Yes, the replicator is crazy, blizz is well aware it's probably broken as shit.
Have a little more faith. I went to blizzcon, and among others who went there, we can tell you that blizzard definitely knew what the fuck they were talking about, often times more knowledgeable and aware than even the community is of issues. Watch the panels at least before judging everything. There isn't even any youtube VOD's of how these units actually play.
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On October 27 2011 14:43 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The thing with the swarm host is it has amazing potential. It could be an amazing defensive unit depending on the speed boost on creep (for the spawns). It could be a great unit to force engagements/place pressure on the opponent. It could even be an amazing unit for harass - drop a single swarm host in a terran base and kill a bunch of production, as well as a scan, for only 200/100 (currently). That's fucking awesome design. I wasn't discussing balance. It's no secret that the swarm host is no combat unit and is quite 'shitty'. It's an extremely niche unit was my point. I was also saying that Protoss got the good end in HOTS, not zerg. Hell even terran got more than zerg did ;/ Anyways most of what you say about the swarm host is straight up wrong as well. It's not too tough (it's not paper though), and quite slow. The swarmlings aren't super fast either, although quite strong. You won't kill any buildings with anything less than like 10 of these things. The swarmlings die quite quickly, and it's like 20 seconds where nothing is going on because the swarmlings died and the cooldown is going on. It's not like a broodlord where its just go go go go go. Its 7 swarmlings, they die in 10 seconds....20 seconds of nothing... 7 more... repeat. It is not a combat unit, and not a siege unit at all like the lurker. It's meant to put mild pressure on a turtling opponent with free swarmlings. A very cool unit, something zerg definitely needs, but it's not the combat or siege unit you think it is. Like, think of it as something that makes 7 broodlings every 30-40 seconds. except the broodlings are slower. Yep, just sits there and does nothing for most of the time due to cooldown. Could be changed, but it's no combat unit at all. You just sit it in front of turtles when you contain them.
You're talking tuning and not role. You can tune a swarm host to do all the cool shit I described; instead you're looking at a likely undertuned unit and comparing it to a bunch of overtuned protoss units. Conceptually the only thing people seem to like in HoTS for protoss is the Oracle (and people are divided on it). The Tempest is iffy, though people who used it (in it's OP form) liked it, and the nexus shit is imba/stupid (though it's a good idea to give the nexus more to do).
Edit: and before you try to say "don't talk balance", mass recall on a nexus is so good that, even if it consumed a nexus, Artosis rightly pointed out it would be used. 400 minerals for a "oh fuck my expensive as shit army is going to die, better save it" button is stupid as shit, let alone 75 NEXUS energy.
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Dominican Republic39 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:38 KeithONLINE wrote:I'm worried as well, HotS sounds like crap for protoss users. I already can't stand PvZ it's not going to be any more fun in HotS 
I think the same!, They are listening to all the bronzies that lack of mutlitasking Skills and putting the game "Easier" and I dont really get the point! I mean NOT everybody Can be a PRO GAMER, they will want it badly but sadly not everybody Sells 1 Milli CD copies! So ITS like THAT, Stop trying to put the game brain dead needed to play. Keep adding Stuff in WOW or the new DOTA, Leave SC2 Alone!!!
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tt1 you are so wrong about everything you said too:
burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
burrow banes die faster than roaches would, no regen. 1 storm, or 1 colossi, all burrow moving banes die. Burrow banes move quite slow, it won't be for combat either.
1-1-1 has already been figured out as well, even if you haven't figured it out. The new immortal range buff takes care of it, the replicator has nothing to do with 1-1-1. The oracle will help with scouting on the 1-1-1 as well. TvP is quite balanced, except at KR GM, to which the EMP reduction will help.
arc shield> removes any sort of threat of muta harass or dropplay(pvz and tvp), being able to defend drops/muta harass with ur units was a skill which tested ur multitasking abilities, now with arc shield their just making the game much easier to play for p users
Only if you are bad enough to be saving chronoboost and not making probes. You will have bigger problems if you can actually do this because you are stockpiling energy. Arc prism will hardly stop all drops either, it will just help a little, but hardly do much. It does zero damage to non-light units, so marauders will be fine against.
for example the viper/swarm host are good all around units which are going to work well within and vs almost any unit compo,
Now they won't. Swarm host is such a 'shitty' unit in terms of actual combat. Swarm host is not good against any unit, everything will counter it. It's only good at pressuring the front of a turtle. The cooldown is like 30-40 seconds for each round of swarmlings that last like 10 seconds and die out extremely quickly if there is enemy units around. Balance has also not been near figured out either, I'm sure the viper will change, and it's just a support caster. Something you have already in the sentry.
the t/z army mixs are going to be vastly different from the ones that weve been seeing in WoL but does anyone honestly think that the protoss army compositions are going to be any different?
Army compositions will be the exact same for all 3 races. Thor will be slightly replaced with warhound, viper or two in zerg army, tempest is better than mothership, but all 3 armies will be the same. What, you think people will mass swarm hosts or battle hellions? you obviously have no idea what youa re talking about.
our unit variety seriously sucks
You can always change races, but the replicator shoud help with that. A protoss army with 2-3 siege tanks, a few medivacs with archon/zealot, 2 infestors with mass zealot, a banshee/VR army... who knows.
they need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics which promote micro engagements(or at the very least prevent from removing them lol)
Abduct, the Oracle... seems pretty good to me. Only adding 1 real spellcaster to the game, and it's not even an offensive spellcaster. Not even as offensive as FF.
The only reason this thread is here is because of who you are. But you are just way off. Someone who didn't go to blizzcon and see the new units and hear what browder/kim had to say and then discussing HOTS, is like a bronze discussing balance. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about, and you should get off your high horse. You are just so wrong in everything you said, you obviously have no clue what HOTS will be like.
We may have no idea how this stuff will play out, but I can assure you things like people using burrow move banes for combat to avoid FF, or arc shield against drops, are just flat out stupidly wrong. Just stupidly wrong... banes have no life, no regen, are slow, die to storm, arc shield only works against light and requires no chrono on probes/tech.
So please close this. Browder specifically said at Blizzcon that we will be able to test out a more refined alpha during next year's blizzcon. It won't even be out anytime soon, and they said they are adding more units, that the replicant will most likely be cut, and that the tempest, viper, and hive upgrades are likely going to be heavily modified.
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You can tune a swarm host to do all the cool shit I described; instead you're looking at a likely undertuned unit and comparing it to a bunch of overtuned protoss units.
Not realy. it's quite clear that the swarm host' role is not combat. That, or they made it extremely underpowered. I guess you could also consider a baneling an undertuned ultralisk counter, they just need to up the damage right?
People liked a lot of things in HOTS. Everyone cheered quite loud. As someone who was at blizzcon, and who talked to people there, and went with friends, I can tell you that we liked the new direction of what they were doing - fixing gaps in the game. Obviously there are balance issues, I stole a gas from my friend and arc prism'd it to cannon rush him, he went mass shredder and filled the entire map with shredder/tank.
They are listening to all the bronzies that lack of mutlitasking Skills and putting the game "Easier
So they remove the mothership and give protoss a harass unit that requires high apm and doesn't kill workers and is an advanced scout.. and that's 'listening to bronzies'? How is any of the new units 'listening to bronzies' when only 2 of them are actual combat units, both of which are actually replacement units (warhound/tempest)?
People just love to hate blizzard, but truth of the matter is that the balance team is extremely competent. Please watch the multiplayer panel and talk to browder before you talk so much shit, you guys have no fucking clue what you are even talking about. This game is extremely balanced right now, and the new patch even more closer so. Everyone loves to cry imba, but truth of the matter, it's the best game besides BW. Of course there will never be another BW, but keep in mind that the expansion to SC2 hasn't even come out yet. This game comes pretty damn close to as good as the original SC, and they did a pretty damn good job. They are extremely competent, and when you hear why they made these new units, it makes perfect sense and is exactly what is needed.
Of course, I'm only 1000+ pt Masters, so i'm not really qualified to talk about balance or anything, but the stats are out there, and I was at blizzcon. Everyone is getting worked up about an expansion that is a year+ in arriving, that's not even out of alpha. chill the fuck out. This thread shouldn't even be up until a year after HOTS is out.
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Belial88 I think you need to get off your high horse, just because someone didn't go to blizzcon doesn't mean they don't have a right to talk about it... You do realize all of the content is on the internet right? You think you know better than TT1 just because you went to blizzcon? You have a go at him for arguing about unit stats that will change when that is EXACTLY what you just did. Furthermore, most of the stuff he talked about wasn't even to do with the stats, but to do with the concepts and uses.
All you do is rebut his theory craft with equally useless theory craft...
Also replying to 'our unit variety sucks' with 'you can change races, and the replicant should help with that' shows you have clearly missed the point.
Edit: Oracle isn't exactly APM intensive... Yeah you cant A-move it, doesnt mean that a good player will be able to use it any better than your average joe. And what's wrong with discussing stuff now? You said we should wait till a year after the game is out, it's a bit late by then don't you think? We are on a discussion board after all...
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I won't get into this, but I do agree with Toss heading in the wrong direction. It all started with the Colossi. You can't ignore this was a bad move. It just feels to be, Blizzard has an idea in mind for the Protoss, but they just don't seem to be the good ideas.
If they change HotS next Blizzcon and gives Toss what they need, then I'll retract this statement. However, I feel like the best way is to give Oracle the Arbiter role from BW. This will more or less give Toss, generally something we can universally use.
But, we'll just have to see I suppose. I was a top 50 Diamond.
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On October 27 2011 16:05 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You can tune a swarm host to do all the cool shit I described; instead you're looking at a likely undertuned unit and comparing it to a bunch of overtuned protoss units. Not realy. it's quite clear that the swarm host' role is not combat. That, or they made it extremely underpowered. I guess you could also consider a baneling an undertuned ultralisk counter, they just need to up the damage right? People liked a lot of things in HOTS. Everyone cheered quite loud. As someone who was at blizzcon, and who talked to people there, and went with friends, I can tell you that we liked the new direction of what they were doing - fixing gaps in the game. Obviously there are balance issues, I stole a gas from my friend and arc prism'd it to cannon rush him, he went mass shredder and filled the entire map with shredder/tank.
No, it's quite clear the only thing you'd need to change are the spawn times (I've read there's like a 7game sec downtime between the unit timing out and a new one spawning? That's just weird) and movement speed; the health/dps is already apparently insane. That's why I think they'd be good in a production/scv line: make them as fast as a slowling and they can chase down marines/tanks as they spawn. Then give them a hydra-esque bonus on creep and suddenly it's a defensive/pressure unit that doesn't HAVE to be cost-effective in pushes (like the muta, though tweaked to force engagements & be much, much worse in harass). That's fucking great design (and not an unbelievable tweak).
On October 27 2011 16:05 Belial88 wrote:
So they remove the mothership and give protoss a harass unit that requires high apm and doesn't kill workers and is an advanced scout.. and that's 'listening to bronzies'? How is any of the new units 'listening to bronzies' when only 2 of them are actual combat units, both of which are actually replacement units (warhound/tempest)?
People just love to hate blizzard, but truth of the matter is that the balance team is extremely competent. Please watch the multiplayer panel and talk to browder before you talk so much shit, you guys have no fucking clue what you are even talking about. This game is extremely balanced right now, and the new patch even more closer so. Everyone loves to cry imba, but truth of the matter, it's the best game besides BW. Of course there will never be another BW, but keep in mind that the expansion to SC2 hasn't even come out yet. This game comes pretty damn close to as good as the original SC, and they did a pretty damn good job. They are extremely competent, and when you hear why they made these new units, it makes perfect sense and is exactly what is needed.
Of course, I'm only 1000+ pt Masters, so i'm not really qualified to talk about balance or anything, but the stats are out there, and I was at blizzcon. Everyone is getting worked up about an expansion that is a year+ in arriving, that's not even out of alpha. chill the fuck out. This thread shouldn't even be up until a year after HOTS is out.
No one in this thread is talking balance. You're just going on huge rants in your responses. Seriously, the more you're posting, the less value your adding. Just get the essence of your posts out and stop; the #1 reason this thread would die/get closed is because it's getting clogged by ridiculous rants (though TT1's initial post wasn't particularly well crafted). Your opinion is absolutely NOT more valuable/interesting than a pros just because you went to blizzcon - 20k others did and there aren't that many pro's (especially not protoss pros). On the flipside, people like Artosis and Nony have had nice things to say about the changes (sorta) and they were there.
Regardless of all of the garbage, this is a great thread to get some sense of player opinion. I really wish there was a dedicated thread for that (an "How do you feel about HoTS thread?" would be wonderful).
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it's so funny, I come one day, see an interesting thread with an interesting OP, and the first couple of pages have some pertinent responses to the question and a debate is starting.
I come back two days after to see the thread has how about 30 pages but right now in the later pages all I see is rage and nerds frothing at the mouth for whatever reason, with not even a shred of connection with the original post.
There's TL for ya.
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On October 27 2011 15:00 DTX180 wrote:
The way units in SC2 deal damage is why SC2 will never have the insane microing that SC1 had. I dont think i need to explain it to anyone, but SC1's units take a standard amount of damage or have damage mitigated by their armor types. SC2's have units either take a standard amount or take more damage based on armor type. Its not "marauders own stalkers because they survive longer against a stalker", its "marauders own stalkers because they mop them up very quickly"
I guess you could make the argument that SC2 requires more skill because you have to do all the microing at an even faster paced due to how damage is dealt, but even the pros are seeing how difficult it can be to micro this faster damage dealing system. Of course the pros that are dominating SC2 were scrubs compared to the flashes, jaedongs, storks, and bisus of SC1, so maybe we just aren't seeing the godly micro quite yet.
So as of right now SC2 battles are entirely about positioning and the timing of it all.
I also miss the much larger advantages the high ground provided.
This isn't really true at all. The damage system in SC2 is basically exactly the same, it's just explained in a much more intuitive fashion that makes it easier to read.
A Dragoon in SC2 would do 10 damage, +10 vs Armored. The amount of damage most units do is pretty similar, or even lower. Siege Tanks do much less damage; Colossus obviously have much weaker burst damage than Reavers; Storm does 2/3rds as much damage, etc.
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On October 27 2011 16:21 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 15:00 DTX180 wrote:
The way units in SC2 deal damage is why SC2 will never have the insane microing that SC1 had. I dont think i need to explain it to anyone, but SC1's units take a standard amount of damage or have damage mitigated by their armor types. SC2's have units either take a standard amount or take more damage based on armor type. Its not "marauders own stalkers because they survive longer against a stalker", its "marauders own stalkers because they mop them up very quickly"
I guess you could make the argument that SC2 requires more skill because you have to do all the microing at an even faster paced due to how damage is dealt, but even the pros are seeing how difficult it can be to micro this faster damage dealing system. Of course the pros that are dominating SC2 were scrubs compared to the flashes, jaedongs, storks, and bisus of SC1, so maybe we just aren't seeing the godly micro quite yet.
So as of right now SC2 battles are entirely about positioning and the timing of it all.
I also miss the much larger advantages the high ground provided. This isn't really true at all. The damage system in SC2 is basically exactly the same, it's just explained in a much more intuitive fashion that makes it easier to read. A Dragoon in SC2 would do 10 damage, +10 vs Armored. The amount of damage most units do is pretty similar, or even lower. Siege Tanks do much less damage; Colossus obviously have much weaker burst damage than Reavers; Storm does 2/3rds as much damage, etc.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types
Im not sure where you are getting that a dragoon would do 10 (+10), when units that did directly transfer from BW to SC2 did not see decreases in damage to compensate. Look at marines. Marines in SC1 had 6 base damage. What do they have in SC2?? Look at Dark Templar. Or Mutas. Obviously a unit like the hydra has changed, but thats because of the role blizzard changed the hydra into.
The new damage system is also why I feel Carriers sucked.
Edit: and Siege Tanks having smart fire and a faster fire rate is a major reason why their damage is lowered a ton.
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EPT
