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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On December 18 2011 14:40 Desirous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 14:38 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:36 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:32 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:22 Moa wrote:The spoiler fear absolutely is necessary. Think about it this way, what does one have to gain from having spoilers, ABSOLUTELY nothing. There is no advantage to having spoilers relative to the disadvantage of ruining series for people who didn't watch them the moment they happened. Think about the recent thread about + Show Spoiler +MMA winning the blizzard cup r. There is much to be lost, particularly the excitement over the series of those who didn't watch live. some would argue that you shouldn't go to sites about starcraft if you don't want something spoiled but there is much to discuss in the starcraft world other than the results of recent series and pragmatically there is a lot to be lost and nothing to be gained over spoilers. Sharing excitement about an event is something that's pretty normal in any community, whether on- or offline. I just don't understand how knowing the results of a series makes the games worse / unenjoyable / unbearable to watch for anyone. Just because I know the RESULT does not mean I know what exactly happened. If I'm a fan, I'll care about that. If I'm not into the game itself, I don't care. While I do understand that the policy over here is ages old and "traditional" I must admit that I can't think of any single sport in the world that is this afraid of spoilers. Can someone explain to me where this comes from? (Tradition doesn't count. >_>) (And yes, this question comes from someone who can't understand threads with 10 pages full of people complaining about spoilers since like 8 years or something. It always seems as if people are just bitchy because their fav lost and need to take it out somewhere.) Other sports aren't built on people watching VoDs like SCII is. That is the reason the spoiler fear exists. Personally I think that worst case scenario this should all be kept to the SCII tourneys section. There is no issue with threads discussing important matches just with titles stating the results in them. Once again: Knowledge of the results does not compromise the quality of the series in any kind of way. If the games were bad I'm actually happy about being spoilered about it since I don't have to waste time watching crappy/onesided games. If I'm being told the games were good/close I'm more excited about checking the VOD. Actually, now that I think of, the older I get (this sounds so terrible >_<) the less I'm watching stuff live and the more I'm checking VODs AFTER I see a full report and someone saying "Game 3 of series X is a 5/5, watch that!!" That is your personal opinion that spoilers don't compromise someone's enjoyment of the series. For many people including me they do. This isn't about any individuals opinions but the opinion of the general community. The general community, 93% of the people who voted in this very thread you're replying to in fact, seem to think results should be front page news.
The poll was added when the OP was incredibly one sided in claiming that TL delays articles because of spoilers, which later had been pointed out wasn't the case. (unfortunately people tend not to read anything past the OP these days :\) I'm of the opinion that polls on sitewide policy changes should be presented with the clear explanation of both sides so users can make a rational decision based on everyone's opinion.
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On December 18 2011 14:41 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 14:38 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:36 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:32 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:22 Moa wrote:The spoiler fear absolutely is necessary. Think about it this way, what does one have to gain from having spoilers, ABSOLUTELY nothing. There is no advantage to having spoilers relative to the disadvantage of ruining series for people who didn't watch them the moment they happened. Think about the recent thread about + Show Spoiler +MMA winning the blizzard cup r. There is much to be lost, particularly the excitement over the series of those who didn't watch live. some would argue that you shouldn't go to sites about starcraft if you don't want something spoiled but there is much to discuss in the starcraft world other than the results of recent series and pragmatically there is a lot to be lost and nothing to be gained over spoilers. Sharing excitement about an event is something that's pretty normal in any community, whether on- or offline. I just don't understand how knowing the results of a series makes the games worse / unenjoyable / unbearable to watch for anyone. Just because I know the RESULT does not mean I know what exactly happened. If I'm a fan, I'll care about that. If I'm not into the game itself, I don't care. While I do understand that the policy over here is ages old and "traditional" I must admit that I can't think of any single sport in the world that is this afraid of spoilers. Can someone explain to me where this comes from? (Tradition doesn't count. >_>) (And yes, this question comes from someone who can't understand threads with 10 pages full of people complaining about spoilers since like 8 years or something. It always seems as if people are just bitchy because their fav lost and need to take it out somewhere.) Other sports aren't built on people watching VoDs like SCII is. That is the reason the spoiler fear exists. Personally I think that worst case scenario this should all be kept to the SCII tourneys section. There is no issue with threads discussing important matches just with titles stating the results in them. Once again: Knowledge of the results does not compromise the quality of the series in any kind of way. If the games were bad I'm actually happy about being spoilered about it since I don't have to waste time watching crappy/onesided games. If I'm being told the games were good/close I'm more excited about checking the VOD. Actually, now that I think of, the older I get (this sounds so terrible >_<) the less I'm watching stuff live and the more I'm checking VODs AFTER I see a full report and someone saying "Game 3 of series X is a 5/5, watch that!!" That is your personal opinion that spoilers don't compromise someone's enjoyment of the series. For many people including me they do.
This isn't about any individuals opinions but the opinion of the general community. Agreed. Time to act based on the general community consensus! *looks at poll in the OP*
Oh wow I hadn't looked at the OP's poll in a while.
Anyway I feel like I should clarify my point. I think that a larger issue that whether or not spoilers should be a front page thing needs to be dealt with DECISIVELY by websites. Either embrace spoilers or ban them. Any middle ground just leaves to some people being unhappy without reasonable recourse. If TL embraced spoilers and published results on the front page as they happened I would happily avoid the website until I know all results I care about.
As it stands spoilers are simply avoided by the website which means they may or may not be there. I don't like gambling, anything is better than the current middle-ground.
I guess what I am saying is I would rather have TL say they will publish spoilers than the current system of maybe publishing them.
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@xBillehx / Moa.
Actually, I just thought about it.
I don't care whether I'm spoilered or not. I really don't, at all.
What I DO care about and what is EXTREMELY annoying to me are threads about recent events with 5-10 pages full of "OMG STOP SPOILER" - "NO U STOP BITCHING ABOUT SPOILERS" arguments.
Therefore let me rephrase what I expect from TL staff on the whole spoiler topic:
Make it consistent. Consistent and brutal.
a) Enforce the no-spoiler-within-24hours-policy harder. React quickly with thread renames and spoilers in the OPs. But also, and this part is really important to me, warn/ban every single person who says "OMG SPOILER/OMG DONT BITCH ABOUT SPOILERS" in those threads instead of pressing the report button. Why? It's annoying as hell, always offtopic and also clear backseat moderating.
b) Remove the no-spoiler-policy. Make the clear statement, that the News and SC2 general/tournies and maybe even the strat section DO have the possibility of spoilers. If you like pleaseing everyone, add a checkbox on top of the entire site that disables your ability to see those forums while you're browsing others.
Edit: LOL AT YOU AND ME MAKING THE SAME POINT AT THE SAME TIME. hi5. Let this be the final word. =D
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On December 18 2011 14:47 r.Evo wrote:
@xBillehx / Moa.
Actually, I just thought about it.
I don't care whether I'm spoilered or not. I really don't, at all.
What I DO care about and what is EXTREMELY annoying to me are threads about recent events with 5-10 pages full of "OMG STOP SPOILER" - "NO U STOP BITCHING ABOUT SPOILERS" arguments.
Therefore let me rephrase what I expect from TL staff on the whole spoiler topic:
Make it consistent. Consistent and brutal.
a) Enforce the no-spoiler-within-24hours-policy harder. React quickly with thread renames and spoilers in the OPs. But also, and this part is really important to me, warn/ban every single person who says "OMG SPOILER/OMG DONT BITCH ABOUT SPOILERS" in those threads instead of pressing the report button. Why? It's annoying as hell, always offtopic and also clear backseat moderating.
b) Remove the no-spoiler-policy. Make the clear statement, that the News and SC2 general/tournies and maybe even the strat section DO have the possibility of spoilers. If you like pleaseing everyone, add a checkbox on top of the entire site that disables your ability to see those forums while you're browsing others.
Edit: LOL AT YOU AND ME MAKING THE SAME POINT AT THE SAME TIME. hi5. Let this be the final word. =D
I don't think it is possible for me to agree with you more than I do right now.
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I agree that TL should put major tournament results up quickly after they are done. I think from the poll at the beginning, most people come here for results, not for vods. If anything, if I see a clean 4-0 sweep or a 4-3 close game, i get more giddy about the game as I want to see the domination or the ridiculous closeness of the game. A front page message doesn't even spoil the most important part, the micro/strategies used in the game. But I think the opinion on TL is clear on this one. And here's a small quote.
I can't give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time.
Herbert Bayard Swope (1882 - 1958)
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I come to TL.net to check results and see what other people had to say. If you come to TL.net for other shit than you should evaluate your schedule and get a life
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 18 2011 14:43 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 14:40 Desirous wrote:On December 18 2011 14:38 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:36 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:32 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:22 Moa wrote:The spoiler fear absolutely is necessary. Think about it this way, what does one have to gain from having spoilers, ABSOLUTELY nothing. There is no advantage to having spoilers relative to the disadvantage of ruining series for people who didn't watch them the moment they happened. Think about the recent thread about + Show Spoiler +MMA winning the blizzard cup r. There is much to be lost, particularly the excitement over the series of those who didn't watch live. some would argue that you shouldn't go to sites about starcraft if you don't want something spoiled but there is much to discuss in the starcraft world other than the results of recent series and pragmatically there is a lot to be lost and nothing to be gained over spoilers. Sharing excitement about an event is something that's pretty normal in any community, whether on- or offline. I just don't understand how knowing the results of a series makes the games worse / unenjoyable / unbearable to watch for anyone. Just because I know the RESULT does not mean I know what exactly happened. If I'm a fan, I'll care about that. If I'm not into the game itself, I don't care. While I do understand that the policy over here is ages old and "traditional" I must admit that I can't think of any single sport in the world that is this afraid of spoilers. Can someone explain to me where this comes from? (Tradition doesn't count. >_>) (And yes, this question comes from someone who can't understand threads with 10 pages full of people complaining about spoilers since like 8 years or something. It always seems as if people are just bitchy because their fav lost and need to take it out somewhere.) Other sports aren't built on people watching VoDs like SCII is. That is the reason the spoiler fear exists. Personally I think that worst case scenario this should all be kept to the SCII tourneys section. There is no issue with threads discussing important matches just with titles stating the results in them. Once again: Knowledge of the results does not compromise the quality of the series in any kind of way. If the games were bad I'm actually happy about being spoilered about it since I don't have to waste time watching crappy/onesided games. If I'm being told the games were good/close I'm more excited about checking the VOD. Actually, now that I think of, the older I get (this sounds so terrible >_<) the less I'm watching stuff live and the more I'm checking VODs AFTER I see a full report and someone saying "Game 3 of series X is a 5/5, watch that!!" That is your personal opinion that spoilers don't compromise someone's enjoyment of the series. For many people including me they do. This isn't about any individuals opinions but the opinion of the general community. The general community, 93% of the people who voted in this very thread you're replying to in fact, seem to think results should be front page news. The poll was added when the OP was incredibly one sided in claiming that TL delays articles because of spoilers, which later had been pointed out wasn't the case. (unfortunately people tend not to read anything past the OP these days :\) I'm of the opinion that polls on sitewide policy changes should be presented with the clear explanation of both sides so users can make a rational decision based on everyone's opinion.
If the post was about preferences on chicken or steak, and the poll was, just for arguments sake we'll say on if results should be posted on the front page or not, it really wouldn't matter one way or another, would it. <-Notice no question mark.
The poll clearly shows that the vast majority want results on the front page. Regardless of your point, the fact that one of the options is "Yes, but only if TL add a spoilerfree VOD page that is easily accessible" would clearly give everyone the correct perspective regarding what the poll was on, and how it stands by what I'm saying within this thread.
(unfortunately, in their hastiness people forget to use logic when making decisions these days :\)
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On December 18 2011 15:20 mki wrote:
I come to TL.net to check results and see what other people had to say. If you come to TL.net for other shit than you should evaluate your schedule and get a life
If you aren't the same as me then you suck. That is pretty much what you just said.
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This is an E-Sports news site why are people still complaining about spoilers. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you shouldn't come on here until you're watched the games. If i have football games on DVR at home, I'm not gonna go to nfl.com or watch any ESPN highlights before I watch those games. Same exact thing here.
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On December 18 2011 15:24 BorGTv wrote:
This is an E-Sports news site why are people still complaining about spoilers. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you shouldn't come on here until you're watched the games. If i have football games on DVR at home, I'm not gonna go to nfl.com or watch any ESPN highlights before I watch those games. Same exact thing here.
Completely agree, if people don't want to be spoiled then don't go onto teamliquid.
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On December 18 2011 15:33 TheKing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 15:24 BorGTv wrote:
This is an E-Sports news site why are people still complaining about spoilers. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you shouldn't come on here until you're watched the games. If i have football games on DVR at home, I'm not gonna go to nfl.com or watch any ESPN highlights before I watch those games. Same exact thing here. Completely agree, if people don't want to be spoiled then don't go onto teamliquid.
Forum rules disagree...
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On December 18 2011 14:47 r.Evo wrote:
@xBillehx / Moa.
Actually, I just thought about it.
I don't care whether I'm spoilered or not. I really don't, at all.
What I DO care about and what is EXTREMELY annoying to me are threads about recent events with 5-10 pages full of "OMG STOP SPOILER" - "NO U STOP BITCHING ABOUT SPOILERS" arguments.
Therefore let me rephrase what I expect from TL staff on the whole spoiler topic:
Make it consistent. Consistent and brutal.
a) Enforce the no-spoiler-within-24hours-policy harder. React quickly with thread renames and spoilers in the OPs. But also, and this part is really important to me, warn/ban every single person who says "OMG SPOILER/OMG DONT BITCH ABOUT SPOILERS" in those threads instead of pressing the report button. Why? It's annoying as hell, always offtopic and also clear backseat moderating.
b) Remove the no-spoiler-policy. Make the clear statement, that the News and SC2 general/tournies and maybe even the strat section DO have the possibility of spoilers. If you like pleaseing everyone, add a checkbox on top of the entire site that disables your ability to see those forums while you're browsing others.
Edit: LOL AT YOU AND ME MAKING THE SAME POINT AT THE SAME TIME. hi5. Let this be the final word. =D
Agree completely. Right now you have mods that don't care, and mods that edit thread titles because of spoilers and/or ban and warn people for spoilers. Make a uniform policy and enforce it. Personally I think all this spoiler whining is retarded, if TL intends their primary purpose to be as a SC news website they should not have any spoiler rules except if tournaments are broadcast from replays and the results have not yet been made public. However I do not run TL and it is not a democracy, if they want a spoiler policy it is their website but it needs to be clear and enforced the same by all mods.
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On December 18 2011 15:21 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 15:20 mki wrote:
I come to TL.net to check results and see what other people had to say. If you come to TL.net for other shit than you should evaluate your schedule and get a life If you aren't the same as me then you suck. That is pretty much what you just said.
Yeah it was pretty narrowminded and elitist. To each his own.
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86% hope we will have some change and start to see winners in front page  .. as many said this is a news sites so you should be the one making sure you wont get spoiled not the site.
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On December 18 2011 14:43 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 14:40 Desirous wrote:On December 18 2011 14:38 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:36 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:32 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:22 Moa wrote:The spoiler fear absolutely is necessary. Think about it this way, what does one have to gain from having spoilers, ABSOLUTELY nothing. There is no advantage to having spoilers relative to the disadvantage of ruining series for people who didn't watch them the moment they happened. Think about the recent thread about + Show Spoiler +MMA winning the blizzard cup r. There is much to be lost, particularly the excitement over the series of those who didn't watch live. some would argue that you shouldn't go to sites about starcraft if you don't want something spoiled but there is much to discuss in the starcraft world other than the results of recent series and pragmatically there is a lot to be lost and nothing to be gained over spoilers. Sharing excitement about an event is something that's pretty normal in any community, whether on- or offline. I just don't understand how knowing the results of a series makes the games worse / unenjoyable / unbearable to watch for anyone. Just because I know the RESULT does not mean I know what exactly happened. If I'm a fan, I'll care about that. If I'm not into the game itself, I don't care. While I do understand that the policy over here is ages old and "traditional" I must admit that I can't think of any single sport in the world that is this afraid of spoilers. Can someone explain to me where this comes from? (Tradition doesn't count. >_>) (And yes, this question comes from someone who can't understand threads with 10 pages full of people complaining about spoilers since like 8 years or something. It always seems as if people are just bitchy because their fav lost and need to take it out somewhere.) Other sports aren't built on people watching VoDs like SCII is. That is the reason the spoiler fear exists. Personally I think that worst case scenario this should all be kept to the SCII tourneys section. There is no issue with threads discussing important matches just with titles stating the results in them. Once again: Knowledge of the results does not compromise the quality of the series in any kind of way. If the games were bad I'm actually happy about being spoilered about it since I don't have to waste time watching crappy/onesided games. If I'm being told the games were good/close I'm more excited about checking the VOD. Actually, now that I think of, the older I get (this sounds so terrible >_<) the less I'm watching stuff live and the more I'm checking VODs AFTER I see a full report and someone saying "Game 3 of series X is a 5/5, watch that!!" That is your personal opinion that spoilers don't compromise someone's enjoyment of the series. For many people including me they do. This isn't about any individuals opinions but the opinion of the general community. The general community, 93% of the people who voted in this very thread you're replying to in fact, seem to think results should be front page news. The poll was added when the OP was incredibly one sided in claiming that TL delays articles because of spoilers, which later had been pointed out wasn't the case. (unfortunately people tend not to read anything past the OP these days :\) I'm of the opinion that polls on sitewide policy changes should be presented with the clear explanation of both sides so users can make a rational decision based on everyone's opinion.
Do you honestly think TL would change this over night? This is the kind of thing that sits in the Poll Box for a month and then MIGHT change.
Personally I think it wouldn't take much to create a show/hide of a single News forum specifically set for ESPORTS NEWS/results and then teach people to not go to teamliquid.net but teamliquid.net/forum or they will see spoiling headlines.
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Completely agree with OP, great thing to bring up IMO. There shouldn't even be such a thing as "spoilers", if the event happened, it should be reported on. If you don't want to know the results, you shouldn't come on TL. Just like you wouldn't go on ESPN after the super bowl if you didn't want it to be spoiled. Makes complete sense I don't see any validation in counter arguments
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On December 18 2011 15:54 Sprungjeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 14:43 xBillehx wrote:On December 18 2011 14:40 Desirous wrote:On December 18 2011 14:38 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:36 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:32 Moa wrote:On December 18 2011 14:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 18 2011 14:22 Moa wrote:The spoiler fear absolutely is necessary. Think about it this way, what does one have to gain from having spoilers, ABSOLUTELY nothing. There is no advantage to having spoilers relative to the disadvantage of ruining series for people who didn't watch them the moment they happened. Think about the recent thread about + Show Spoiler +MMA winning the blizzard cup r. There is much to be lost, particularly the excitement over the series of those who didn't watch live. some would argue that you shouldn't go to sites about starcraft if you don't want something spoiled but there is much to discuss in the starcraft world other than the results of recent series and pragmatically there is a lot to be lost and nothing to be gained over spoilers. Sharing excitement about an event is something that's pretty normal in any community, whether on- or offline. I just don't understand how knowing the results of a series makes the games worse / unenjoyable / unbearable to watch for anyone. Just because I know the RESULT does not mean I know what exactly happened. If I'm a fan, I'll care about that. If I'm not into the game itself, I don't care. While I do understand that the policy over here is ages old and "traditional" I must admit that I can't think of any single sport in the world that is this afraid of spoilers. Can someone explain to me where this comes from? (Tradition doesn't count. >_>) (And yes, this question comes from someone who can't understand threads with 10 pages full of people complaining about spoilers since like 8 years or something. It always seems as if people are just bitchy because their fav lost and need to take it out somewhere.) Other sports aren't built on people watching VoDs like SCII is. That is the reason the spoiler fear exists. Personally I think that worst case scenario this should all be kept to the SCII tourneys section. There is no issue with threads discussing important matches just with titles stating the results in them. Once again: Knowledge of the results does not compromise the quality of the series in any kind of way. If the games were bad I'm actually happy about being spoilered about it since I don't have to waste time watching crappy/onesided games. If I'm being told the games were good/close I'm more excited about checking the VOD. Actually, now that I think of, the older I get (this sounds so terrible >_<) the less I'm watching stuff live and the more I'm checking VODs AFTER I see a full report and someone saying "Game 3 of series X is a 5/5, watch that!!" That is your personal opinion that spoilers don't compromise someone's enjoyment of the series. For many people including me they do. This isn't about any individuals opinions but the opinion of the general community. The general community, 93% of the people who voted in this very thread you're replying to in fact, seem to think results should be front page news. The poll was added when the OP was incredibly one sided in claiming that TL delays articles because of spoilers, which later had been pointed out wasn't the case. (unfortunately people tend not to read anything past the OP these days :\) I'm of the opinion that polls on sitewide policy changes should be presented with the clear explanation of both sides so users can make a rational decision based on everyone's opinion. Do you honestly think TL would change this over night? This is the kind of thing that sits in the Poll Box for a month and then MIGHT change. Personally I think it wouldn't take much to create a show/hide of a single News forum specifically set for ESPORTS NEWS/results and then teach people to not go to teamliquid.net but teamliquid.net/forum or they will see spoiling headlines.
Why should the website even have to do that? If they think it will be better for business and traffic then fine, but if the amount of people who actually want something like that is pretty small there is no logical reason for TL to include a no-spoiler gateway. There have been a lot of arguments about all the other content on TL that is not SC related, but at the end of the day the primary purpose of this website is SC NEWS AND DISCUSSION. It makes the most sense to design the rules in a way where this is the priority. They shouldn't have to design the website so the guy who talks about TV shows on TL every day can avoid being spoiled for SC2.
When someone wins a major there should be a huge front page image moments after. In five years when all this spoiler crap is dead people will look back at these discussions and scratch their heads.
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Well of course. Doesn't everything seem to hurt esports these days? :/
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Kinda sad that when a player wins a big tournament its hushed up. Because popularity of the polls i hope teamliquid makes the change.
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On December 18 2011 14:47 r.Evo wrote:
@xBillehx / Moa.
Actually, I just thought about it.
I don't care whether I'm spoilered or not. I really don't, at all.
What I DO care about and what is EXTREMELY annoying to me are threads about recent events with 5-10 pages full of "OMG STOP SPOILER" - "NO U STOP BITCHING ABOUT SPOILERS" arguments.
Therefore let me rephrase what I expect from TL staff on the whole spoiler topic:
Make it consistent. Consistent and brutal.
a) Enforce the no-spoiler-within-24hours-policy harder. React quickly with thread renames and spoilers in the OPs. But also, and this part is really important to me, warn/ban every single person who says "OMG SPOILER/OMG DONT BITCH ABOUT SPOILERS" in those threads instead of pressing the report button. Why? It's annoying as hell, always offtopic and also clear backseat moderating.
b) Remove the no-spoiler-policy. Make the clear statement, that the News and SC2 general/tournies and maybe even the strat section DO have the possibility of spoilers. If you like pleaseing everyone, add a checkbox on top of the entire site that disables your ability to see those forums while you're browsing others.
Edit: LOL AT YOU AND ME MAKING THE SAME POINT AT THE SAME TIME. hi5. Let this be the final word. =D
Agreed. All the incessant whining will disappear if Team Liquid mods enforce whatever spoiler policy strictly. That and it probably needs a review and statement regarding it.
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EPT
