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On September 22 2011 06:45 Roxy wrote:
I'm not saying that it is impossible that some spectators dont play, i'm just saying it is unlikely. Does anyone here know someone who is INTERESTED in watching starcraft 2 who has never played a game of starcraft 2?
its possible.. but I bet you that maybe it will be 1 out of 10,000 viewers
I have a number of friends like this who somehow just missed the boat when the game came out and never got into it later. I keep telling them to buy it just for the campaign if nothing else -_-
I'll bet there's plenty of baseball/football/hockey fans who have never played a game before.
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United States5162 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:45 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:42 Myles wrote:On September 22 2011 06:33 Roxy wrote:On September 22 2011 06:31 Shaetan wrote:On September 22 2011 06:29 YumYumGranola wrote:On September 22 2011 06:27 Shaetan wrote:On September 22 2011 06:18 YumYumGranola wrote:
the fact is that almost every single spectator of SC2 events is also a player. If there's anything that dissuades new players it has a negative affect on new spectators which hurts the feasibility foreign tournaments and therefore the entire foreign scene. This is not true. Well I certainly don't know any... Well then by jove it must be true! I think it is more reasonable to assume that most SC2 viewers are also players than it is to assume that most are not players How would someone understand the game if they do not play it? Do you regularly view anything you dont understand? You don't need to play something to understand it. Most women I know never played American football, but they understand it just fine if they're at all interested in it. I'm not saying that it is impossible that some spectators dont play, i'm just saying it is unlikely. Does anyone here know someone who is INTERESTED in watching starcraft 2 who has never played a game of starcraft 2? its possible.. but I bet you that maybe it will be 1 out of 10,000 viewers
For esports, no, people who watch were probably introduced by the game itself. Though I'd wager it's more then 1/10,000. People like Husky have introduced a large number of people to SC2 who probably don't play much or ever. Esports is still in a small niche though. If it ever becomes more mainstream it will happen just like in regular sports.
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On September 22 2011 06:45 Roxy wrote:
I'm not saying that it is impossible that some spectators dont play, i'm just saying it is unlikely. Does anyone here know someone who is INTERESTED in watching starcraft 2 who has never played a game of starcraft 2?
its possible.. but I bet you that maybe it will be 1 out of 10,000 viewers
Yes, I know several, who just spectate and don´t play. I for example got into SC trough a youtube video of the famous german caster Homerj, who actually has the goal to get casuals or even non player into esport. The guy has thousands of fans, who just enjoy the game because of the entertainment of spectating. Those people are actually really important to make esport a serious sport, because nearly no sport can survive, if the only viewer are people who actively practice it. You don´t need to play the game to understand it. You can learn the basics in a few days.
I follow the scene now for pretty much a year, but I only got an account in Spring. I was seeded into Silver and got into diamond eventually. At some point however, I needed to choose between playing or spectating, because I just have a limited amount of freetime and eventually I chose to just spectate it, because its more fun for me personally.
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4713 Posts
I believe that, in order to attain balance in a game, or near perfect balance, it needs to be conducted at a level where skill and execution is consistent close to 100% of the time, this happens to be the highest level of play.
I don't think this is a bad thing at all, BW as you have said is harder then SC2, seems more unbalanced at lower level of play. But despite all of the at BW is still tremendously successful in Korea, and it has been for years and it will probably still be so.
People, viewers, don't care about the lower levels of play, they care about seeing their favorite players, the best gamers in the world, duke it out at the highest level, they crave every nuance of their macro, every slight adjustment of their positioning, every little finesse of their micro.
I know for a fact that I'm not the best player in the world, that maybe a certain race would give me more chances for success. I don't care, I play what I want and if there is some racial imbalance at lower levels of play, then it will spur me on to play harder, to practice more and to give it my best so I can reach that top level where all things are equal and skill is the most important factor.
I really don't think the game could ever reach a point where people at the lower levels would complain so much they would quit, they would just admit they aren't good enough and try harder. Even if they don't succeed it won't diminish the game's popularity.
If as you say terran is so difficult at lower levels that a terran in D rank switching to protoss could get to C rank, and it still didn't kill the game, then that just proves my point. No one cares about low level play, its the high level play that counts.
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in what universe was TvP imbalanced in Broodwar?!
i mean seriously?! the game was 100% balanced, and the only thing that affected winrates were maps.
saying TvP was imbalanced in Broodwar is simply wrong.
[B]
If as you say terran is so difficult at lower levels that a terran in D rank switching to protoss could get to C rank, and it still didn't kill the game, then that just proves my point. No one cares about low level play, its the high level play that counts.
that's why i'm so pissed at every low level protoss who's whining.
there's SO MUCH people can improve in order to get better.
sure toss seems to suck at pro level, and it's probably true that something needs to be done.
but why can't all the mediocre players shut up and let the pros discuss the game.
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I feel bad that i even mentioned Huskystarcraft, when the real king of the non-sc2 players has to be the man himself: Totalbiscuit. He has introduced many non-sc2 players to this game. And as for whether i have any friends who don't play but do watch? yes i do. Multiple in fact. Some of them have played the campaign, or maybe have tried out some customs, or even some 1v1s, but they barely play at all (and in some cases not at all), so the balance of the game matters none at all to them. Which is why i feel for levels platinum and up, which at this point people have to want to improve to get to. It is not like in the beta where you would be in platinum just by having played rts games before.
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Is the race distribution not balanced among different levels or did you just make everything up because you're stuck?
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On September 22 2011 06:24 antikk555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:21 Roxy wrote:
...however, there are many imbalances that excist throughout different leagues.
Do tell.
ZvT for example is much easier for the Zerg at low levels, because the skill required to micro versus Banelings and setup good tank positions is much harder than A moving Banelings.
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On September 22 2011 06:58 Pelirrojo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:45 Roxy wrote:
I'm not saying that it is impossible that some spectators dont play, i'm just saying it is unlikely. Does anyone here know someone who is INTERESTED in watching starcraft 2 who has never played a game of starcraft 2?
its possible.. but I bet you that maybe it will be 1 out of 10,000 viewers I have a number of friends like this who somehow just missed the boat when the game came out and never got into it later. I keep telling them to buy it just for the campaign if nothing else -_- I'll bet there's plenty of baseball/football/hockey fans who have never played a game before.
Because watching baseball and SC2 are comparable. As much as you people want to tell yourself SC2 is a real sport you're very delusional.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 22 2011 06:36 Doodsmack wrote:
What's an example of an SC2 balance change that was targeted at the lower leagues and had a negative effect on professional play?
Flux vanes completely removed (to prevent mass void ray rushes in team games, ended up fucking with late game p v z harass) and zealot build time nerf to prevent rampant proxy 2 gating in lower leagues. Wasn't really a big deal in the higher leagues.
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I think they should balance both for the top and for the average players. If one race is slightly OP when you have Korean pro level micro but UP when you have average micro, it is bad design and needs to be adjusted.
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On September 22 2011 06:24 oni_link wrote:
your tl dr is missing
User was warned for this post
Would anyone care to explain this warning to me? Seems like a pretty reasonable observation to me since at the end of the post there is "TL;DR" with nothing following.
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On September 22 2011 06:33 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:31 Shaetan wrote:On September 22 2011 06:29 YumYumGranola wrote:On September 22 2011 06:27 Shaetan wrote:On September 22 2011 06:18 YumYumGranola wrote:
the fact is that almost every single spectator of SC2 events is also a player. If there's anything that dissuades new players it has a negative affect on new spectators which hurts the feasibility foreign tournaments and therefore the entire foreign scene. This is not true. Well I certainly don't know any... Well then by jove it must be true! I think it is more reasonable to assume that most SC2 viewers are also players than it is to assume that most are not players How would someone understand the game if they do not play it? Do you regularly view anything you dont understand?
Just for the record on this tangent, I do not play or even own a licensed copy of SC:BW or SC2. I've been following the scene and watching regularly for 7+ years now. Why would anyone need to play SC2 to understand it?
On September 22 2011 06:45 Roxy wrote:
I'm not saying that it is impossible that some spectators dont play, i'm just saying it is unlikely. Does anyone here know someone who is INTERESTED in watching starcraft 2 who has never played a game of starcraft 2?
its possible.. but I bet you that maybe it will be 1 out of 10,000 viewers
Your estimate is very low. All of my past girlfriends I've gotten into watching SC:BW and SC2, and a few of my friends. None of us play the game. It's enjoyable to spectate.
For that matter I actively participate in a SC community without even playing the game. I hardly think I'm the only person to do so.
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United States5162 Posts
On September 22 2011 07:10 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:24 oni_link wrote:
your tl dr is missing
User was warned for this post Would anyone care to explain this warning to me? Seems like a pretty reasonable observation to me since at the end of the post there is "TL;DR" with nothing following.
The mod probably thought he was requesting a TL;DR in a smartass way. If it's brought their attention in an appropriate way(as in not PMing them 'Yo, ur totally retarded for giving out that warning') it should be corrected.
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u must always balance for the highest level its like most people cant dunk a basketball so we just lower the hoop from 10 ft to 7 ft. i mean that shit wouldnt fly.
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United States3990 Posts
What skills/abilities are you lacking compared to a pro player, and why must the game be balanced around this lack of yours?
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There is certainly game balance at all levels of play, I just think people on a site with a special interest in competitive gaming only find balance at that level particularly relevant. As such, most think developers should balance the game for that level, as most lower levels that want to be better emulate the best players, though the styles get diluted the further down you go. I think, for instance, protoss is extremely potent at low-mid levels of play, while terran has a high skill cap and does really well at high tier.
As far as balancing both levels, it's possible. I think it's easy to buff or nerf high tier while leaving low tier alone (buff or nerf mechanic that scales with skill well), it's easy to nerf low tier while leaving high tier alone (nerf a-move-ish units, buff something that scales with skill well), it's easy to buff or nerf both (stat tweaks), but it's harder to do something like buffing low tier while trying not to effect or nerf high tier. I'm sure that sounds like a mess, and as such they should probably just try to get it right at the competitive level first, then later maybe worry about the race dynamics at different spots on the learning curve.
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On September 22 2011 06:46 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:36 Jerubaal wrote:
You picked a rather poor example I think because you're condemning a whole race as 'ezmode' instead of proving that a specific thing is 'more difficult' at a certain level. Also, I think when people consider lower league balance they try to adhere to a false notion of 'equality' instead of thinking about the effort required to improve. A common example is the dynamic you see in low league PvT where players complain about a perception of bio/gateway/colossi/vikings at varying levels of development. Do I think it's 'more difficult' for a bio terran to defeat a roboing protoss? Sure. Do I think the jump the terran has to make in order to incorporate vikings in their play is any more difficult than the jump the protoss had to make to incorporate colossi? Not really.
The reason why low league play can't really be examined for balance reasons is that if either player improved even by the smallest margin, they'd probably demolish their opponent. The reason TvP was significantly imbalanced for Terran in BW has everything to do with the insane splash damage of Terran mech. Engaging a Toss army required seige tanks to be spread properly, and mines to be placed absolutely PERFECTLY so that they were far enough from tanks not to get dragged in and blow your whole army up but close enough that dragoons couldn't clear them before engaging your army. It was a knife-edge balance that was required to successfully engage a toss army that was "1a2a3a..." that simply doesn't exist in SC2. However when you can do it properly Terran mech is monstrous. That's why it doesn't need a buff at higher levels of play. I was a D level Terran player. The Korean kids in our class were huge gamers, 240+APM and were in the C and into B leagues. I was able to compete as Protoss against C level Terrans. My APM was somewhere around 70 (or 40 in SC2 APM) That's the kind of difference. I'm literally talking about Silver league players beating masters league players simply because of the race they chose.
Ok, well you just made a whole 'nother post saying why you thought it was easier to play Protoss, but your post doesn't really discuss 'balance'. If Iccup was halfway decent, then it should be putting you up against people it thinks you are equal to, regardless of what the 'skill quotient' decides your worth is. So if, as you say, a brainless monkey can get to C as Protoss, then the ones that were still in D with you must have been some kind of godawful. Your job isn't to try to attain some imaginary standard of skill that you think is being unfairly distributed, it's to win by being a little bit less godawful than the person you're playing.
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i think that balance should only take into acount the highest levels of play between the professionals (gm players, not masters or below). if its balanced for the best, it is definitely balanced for the rest, but then again, the lower leagues tend to blame the game before themselves.
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On September 22 2011 06:21 antikk555 wrote:
I recently started a new account as Zerg. I killed my own hatch at the start of the game with 7 workers in all 5 of my placement matches.
At silver level my build was nydus worm worker rush, no lings, no roaches, just workers. It would work regardless of the build my opponent was doing (4gate, reactor hellion etc). This is obviously a joke build, but it worked.
If players can be beaten by a Nydus worker rush balancing the game based on what they think is fucking retarded. End of.
This guy basically destroyed your whole argument. It's usually the player, not the race unless you are talking about the very highest level of play so balancing is pointless unless it's something abused in every single game.
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