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On March 28 2017 08:35 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2017 06:21 c0sm0naut wrote:
Strongly disagree with calls to change the Adept
this unit accomplishes nothing that a speedling runby wouldnt, its just a tankier protoss version with more mobility
once players start to respect protoss, adept will be less of a problem. right now players play with no respect at all (no bunkers, no spines, dumping all their cash into upgrades/units/bases) and they act surprised when a 5 adepts + 40 probes players hulk smashes a zerg who went straight to 70 drones off no units, panic makes lings when warp prism comes out, and then doesnt have them in the correct position when the drop comes. soO lost 20 drones + floods of lings to like 8 adepts on daybreak and thats not a thing we should balance the game around. not to mention, he had the chance to play a full macro game after that and basically only lost because he bought a bunch of banelings that did nothing instead of vipers/actual units
ive seen soo defend that exact rush from sOs and lose nothing, but be behind on drones. and then he just drones, has an army lead and workers lead after he kills the push and protoss 3rd is not safe at all if the pressure flops like that (reminder that it is already planted and will be unable to be canceled) I mean, if 8 lings get into a mineral line, the probes can kill it. If an adept gets in your mineral line and you attack it with drones, you're going to lose like 8 drones, lol.
thats just dishonest.. the second any upgrades come into play the probes dont stand a chance. also nothing is keeping the speedlings there.
probes are slower than speedlings, and are melee units
they cannot kill the speedlings if sling user uses any micro at all
again, this accomplishes nothing that a speedling runby or drop doesnt accomplish. i guess the main diffference is that one of these units (lings), everyone has lost to hundreds of times, and continues to lose to on the rare occasion. so they are paranoid and build good defnses vs ground units. that instinct has somehow not kicked in for players yet, versus adepts. the other difference is that lings are faster, cost less, can be made quicker and arent as painful to lose
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Adepts are silly yes, but they do have counterplays, and mass adept delays protoss tech.
Storm on the other hand has no counterplay from zerg, and this is really bad. In a map with few wide areas you're already in disavantage just for playing zerg. Every time you move your units looking for positioning to engange and they clump, protoss cast storms and deal free damage.
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On March 28 2017 08:54 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2017 08:35 InfCereal wrote:On March 28 2017 06:21 c0sm0naut wrote:
Strongly disagree with calls to change the Adept
this unit accomplishes nothing that a speedling runby wouldnt, its just a tankier protoss version with more mobility
once players start to respect protoss, adept will be less of a problem. right now players play with no respect at all (no bunkers, no spines, dumping all their cash into upgrades/units/bases) and they act surprised when a 5 adepts + 40 probes players hulk smashes a zerg who went straight to 70 drones off no units, panic makes lings when warp prism comes out, and then doesnt have them in the correct position when the drop comes. soO lost 20 drones + floods of lings to like 8 adepts on daybreak and thats not a thing we should balance the game around. not to mention, he had the chance to play a full macro game after that and basically only lost because he bought a bunch of banelings that did nothing instead of vipers/actual units
ive seen soo defend that exact rush from sOs and lose nothing, but be behind on drones. and then he just drones, has an army lead and workers lead after he kills the push and protoss 3rd is not safe at all if the pressure flops like that (reminder that it is already planted and will be unable to be canceled) I mean, if 8 lings get into a mineral line, the probes can kill it. If an adept gets in your mineral line and you attack it with drones, you're going to lose like 8 drones, lol. thats just dishonest.. the second any upgrades come into play the probes dont stand a chance. also nothing is keeping the speedlings there. probes are slower than speedlings, and are melee units they cannot kill the speedlings if sling user uses any micro at all again, this accomplishes nothing that a speedling runby or drop doesnt accomplish. i guess the main diffference is that one of these units (lings), everyone has lost to hundreds of times, and continues to lose to on the rare occasion. so they are paranoid and build good defnses vs ground units. that instinct has somehow not kicked in for players yet, versus adepts. the other difference is that lings are faster, cost less, can be made quicker and arent as painful to lose
Its painful to lose any units in that view. Also adepts are still pretty cheap. They are worth about 4 Zerglings and 25 gas each. Which isn't cheap granted, but its not expensive either.. With 8 lings it gets annoying and they can definitely rack up some kills. But adepts on the other hand in a warp prism that is terrifying. You can warp in so many adepts which have the shade ability (deadly not op though) to travel around base to base. A Zergling is a melee marine in damage. An adept is a very effective light unit killer that has an invulnerable mobility unlike any other unit. The Zerglings are faster but they are only strong in #'s. 2 Lings will not kill 2 marines. 4 Lings however will. Now not to say Adepts are the only units that clear mineral lines fast. Marine drops are deadly, Widows are deadly, banes are deadly, mass muta is deadly, adepts/zealots are deadly and so are DT's and Disruptors but in raw power an adept drop will always be stronger than 8 lings. Unless its literally a single adept.
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On March 28 2017 10:09 xTJx wrote:
Adepts are silly yes, but they do have counterplays, and mass adept delays protoss tech.
Storm on the other hand has no counterplay from zerg, and this is really bad. In a map with few wide areas you're already in disavantage just for playing zerg. Every time you move your units looking for positioning to engange and they clump, protoss casts storm and deal free damage.
It is pretty bad for Terran too I mean worse for Zerg since you guys have literally 0 way to deal with it but like if the Terran doesn't have ghosts to emp with and they double stim or have a prolonged battle where they gotta stim again it can devastate the bio army.
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Photon Overcharge and Warpins are pretty good at defending Ling Runbys. As soon as you Photon Overcharge you reduce the amount of damage your workers take by a lot. No correct army positioning needed. You can defend with fewer invest.
Adepts can shade into a perfect position between mineral patches and fokus fire drones. You need to have enough army to deal with them at two fronts at the same time, cause protoss can decide where to attack, and even then he can focus fire your workers and get decent trades.
But ofc it takes a lot of skill to make the right decision and do it flawless.
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On March 28 2017 10:09 xTJx wrote:
Adepts are silly yes, but they do have counterplays, and mass adept delays protoss tech.
Storm on the other hand has no counterplay from zerg, and this is really bad. In a map with few wide areas you're already in disavantage just for playing zerg. Every time you move your units looking for positioning to engange and they clump, protoss cast storms and deal free damage.
Mass Adepts delay nothing relatively. This tactics is guaranteed mass drone/scv kills that sets Zerg/Terran so behind that Toss can easily macro or tech behind it. Terran at least can do counter damage with drops or sth. Zerg will just crush on protoss pylon wall and must play from behind. And if Zerg is behind in eco-and he is 100% after mass adepts- Zerg is dead and nothing can be done. The problem is that the only strengh of Zerg which was economy ad macro was nerfed to the ground by 25%. If we had 4 larva back it would be easier to come back or set some eco advantage to be able to exchange armies in fights more efficiently.
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For the love of God, at least do something about Swarm Hosts. They are such a nonsense unit, and as a player who mechs, you cannot do anything about it.
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On March 28 2017 06:21 c0sm0naut wrote:
Strongly disagree with calls to change the Adept
this unit accomplishes nothing that a speedling runby wouldnt, its just a tankier protoss version with more mobility
once players start to respect protoss, adept will be less of a problem. right now players play with no respect at all (no bunkers, no spines, dumping all their cash into upgrades/units/bases) and they act surprised when a 5 adepts + 40 probes players hulk smashes a zerg who went straight to 70 drones off no units, panic makes lings when warp prism comes out, and then doesnt have them in the correct position when the drop comes. soO lost 20 drones + floods of lings to like 8 adepts on daybreak and thats not a thing we should balance the game around. not to mention, he had the chance to play a full macro game after that and basically only lost because he bought a bunch of banelings that did nothing instead of vipers/actual units
ive seen soo defend that exact rush from sOs and lose nothing, but be behind on drones. and then he just drones, has an army lead and workers lead after he kills the push and protoss 3rd is not safe at all if the pressure flops like that (reminder that it is already planted and will be unable to be canceled)
i do agree. often it is only a few too many drones made at the wrong time instead of making army units which makes all the difference. soo did that a few times in the gsl finals.
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Maybe shade must be an energy ability instead of cooldown? if you think about gateway units protoss, all the skills that have cooldown must be researched (blink for stalker/dt's, charge for zealot; except for ht's storms, but ht are tier 3 unit), then for adepts we have to research glaives, and another upgrade will be troublesome.
Just give them a 150/200 total energy, start with 100, and cost 50(for example), so shade can be used at least 2 times. With this, protoss players will have to think when and where to shade, and will not be shading infinitely for one mineral line to another.
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Watching Mana casting revelation on Snutes army and having 100% vision of it makes it impossible for Snute to attack or use spell casters efficiently. BLizz should really nerf revelation!
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Revelation is the only reliable way in dealing with Lurkers. If you want to nerf revelation you have to buff other forms of detection for Protoss.
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On March 30 2017 03:48 RaFox17 wrote:
Watching Mana casting revelation on Snutes army and having 100% vision of it makes it impossible for Snute to attack or use spell casters efficiently. BLizz should really nerf revelation!
i'm for this. but i think it'll just lead to protoss building more oracles.
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Yep revelation is like maphack, and a cheap one : a good player see the entire map with 2 oracles. Super frustrating to play against (like vs an avilo's map full of sensors towers )
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On March 30 2017 04:59 IamBiSa wrote:
Revelation is the only reliable way in dealing with Lurkers. If you want to nerf revelation you have to buff other forms of detection for Protoss.
You don't need to see them for 1 minute, 20-30s would be fine.
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On March 30 2017 04:59 IamBiSa wrote:
Revelation is the only reliable way in dealing with Lurkers. If you want to nerf revelation you have to buff other forms of detection for Protoss.
Maybe some kind of small, flying unit. And to make sure it doesn't die too easily, we should make it invisible.
That sounds good.
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On March 30 2017 06:11 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 04:59 IamBiSa wrote:
Revelation is the only reliable way in dealing with Lurkers. If you want to nerf revelation you have to buff other forms of detection for Protoss. Maybe some kind of small, flying unit. And to make sure it doesn't die too easily, we should make it invisible. That sounds good.
And let's give it a speed upgrade so that it can scale into late game!
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Agree that Revelation's duration is just too long. 45 seconds or even 30 would be perfectly adequate. The weakness of an unbeatable Protoss lategame army is that it's slow and can be outmaneuvered. Revelation removes that weakness and contributes a great deal to Zerg frustration at invincible lategame Protoss.
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i main z and the idea that observers are any good against hydra lurker is fucking hilarious... lol
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On March 30 2017 09:13 brickrd wrote:
i main z and the idea that observers are any good against hydra lurker is fucking hilarious... lol
still having perma revelation on the opponents army feels super strong dont you think?
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On March 30 2017 10:23 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 09:13 brickrd wrote:
i main z and the idea that observers are any good against hydra lurker is fucking hilarious... lol still having perma revelation on the opponents army feels super strong dont you think?
it does but at the same time without this we would literally be back to WOL in the ultra late game.
the fact of the matter is, because you can advance creep in this game, static defense from zerg is extremely powerful late game. without revelation theres no way to reliably see lurkers and shoot broodlords with tempests. observers will never get valuable vision of a zerg army once they get a lot of spores/overseers up. every game would end up being zerg slow pushing with creep, or playing WOL style and moving around 30 spores/10 broods/10 casters/30 queens/30 hydras and sucking up the resources on the map one base at a time, totally unkillable. masters random
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EPT
