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For the record, 4 mutas magic boxed will beat a thor. The number of mutas needs to kill a thor by being all clumped in one ball (read: how many mutas does it take to kill a thor before it fires off, what I think 4 shots to kill a muta?) is around 19 or so? I don't remember, I just know 4 magic boxed mutas.
Get over that argument. Someone used hyperbole about thor vs muta, you don't need to bash him for a figure of speech. Like, thors kill mutas, thors don't kill mutas that badly, what the fuck does that have to do with the complaints you guys were both discussing on balance, jesus christ.
I keep hearing these garbage arguments about toss not having a MVP/Nestea. MVP was knocked into Code A not long ago, with MC rocking out almost every tournament, before the stupid 20 second gateway nerf that screwed the race for good.
Actually, they aren't that garbage of arguments. The best way to analyze this game, is to analyze the actual game, not results. And when you watch the level of play, it's clear that MVP and Nestea are just the top best players in the world, and it's obvious they would be good no matter what race they played.
I'm not saying one race players better than the other, but when you are getting to the absolute tippy-top, you have 1-2 players that are just lightyears ahead of everyone, kind of like Flash right now in BW. Is Terran OP in BW? No, just Flash. Is T or Z OP in SC2? Not necessarily, you just have 2 amazing players.
MC is a great player, but his gateway all-ins got screwed pretty hard by people figuring them out, and by the gateway nerfs. But this isn't a big deal, he's a A-class player (or S, whatever), but recently he's just made huge blunders in games.
Now I'm not here to talk about TvP, he got knocked into Up/Down by TvP and maybe Terran is imbalanced, I'm a Zerg and only hear to talk about Zerg.
But the games against Monster, for example, MC was clearly the better player. But in game 2, he let 30 lings run into his base twice and then pathetically all-inned instead of expanding in a game he had no chance of winning anyways after both those runbys killed 20+ workers early on in the game, and in game 3 he lost all of his colossi, sentries, and stalkers on 3 separate occassions by just not paying attention and leaving them out in the open (granted, Monster distracted him with multiple attacks and out-multi-tasked MC in g3). This isn't imbalance, it was MC making huge blunders.
What does this have to do with anything? Well, Nestea and MVP didn't make huge blunders in any recent games. You can be sure that MC went home blaming only himself after his series vs Monster, and no one else. I don't think he QQd about imbalance when it turned out his wall-in wasn't actually a wall.... twice.
Protoss is a joke =D 2 left in code S, and there was 12 in code A, 8 of then got knocked out first round to cry with the sad Zealot in Code B...
Maybe against Terran, but not against Zerg.
This season we had Protoss players eliminated in their series against Zerg because we saw:
1. Double stargate all-in
2. 4 gates
3. Proxy 2 gates
4. Going nexus first against 6 pools
5. Letting 30 zerglings run into their base, having their colossi rallied to the zergs base, and blinking their stalkers way ahead of their own army into ling/muta.
6. Trying to sneak a hidden base, and then losing it immediately after putting up a bunch of gateways and cannons and pylons.
7. Did I mention someone ACTUALLY tried to proxy 2 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to 4 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to double stargate?
Protoss is doing just fine against Zerg. The actual players in the GSL? They are making either huge blunders, or making extremely stupid decisions. I'm not saying that Protoss are the only ones who do stupid things or make blunders, I'm just saying THESE last two seasons, Protoss win rates against Zerg have fallen because a sample size of what, about 8 people?, was totally skewed by a few people making huge, huge blunders.
It's like polling a group of 10 random people, finding out 2 of them like kiddie porn, and saying omg the world is suddenly changing because 20% of the population likes kiddie porn, nerf zerg!
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Keep it civil, I have tried to address every issue that i know of. I also looked to best way to improve the way units interacted an counter each other to smooth over troublesome spots in SC2's meta games to let a mach progress in to the later stages. Many times i looked back to older games. For example giving ghost lock down to free up the TvT mid game of Siege tank vs Siege tanks.
So starting off with general buildings
[li]All Buildings unit type are now classified as building and not Armored [/li]
[li]
Canceling a constructing Pylon, bunker, or Hatchery (more than range 8 away form a mineral filed / vespene geyser) can not be done if under attack in the last 3 sec.
Bunkers can not be salvage if it is under attack in the last 3 sec. Why? When choosing to cheese, a failed a temp sets the player back to equate the risk with the reward. [/li]
Terran
Siege tanks,
[li]Shock Cannon deal 35 (+ 40 vs armored) first target hit, the aoe is keep the same. Why? To allow Mech play in TvP.[/li]
Thor,
[li]Javelin Missile Launchers do 4 attacks that deal 10 damage each. remove bonus to light damage. Why? Allows thors to work as general anti air not just vs light, [/li]
[li]Thor's Hammer deal 22 damage per attack (2 attacks) . Why? To keep mech play balanced vs ground armies[/li]
Raven,
[li]Give EMP at 100 energy cost with range of 9. [/li]
[li]Seeker Missile cast ranging increased to range 8 and damage changed to 55. Now effects a 3x3 area. Why? Also would allow the use of seeker missile to snipe out key groups of units (baneling) before a Terran push.[/li]
[li]Point Defence Drone now effects a 4x4 area and last 10 sec. Energy cost changed to 75. Why? Addes Space control to the raven.[/li]
[li]Remove Auto turrets.[/li]
[li]Reduce Gas cost to 150. [/li]
Ghost,
[li]Added Lock Down reachable at the academy for a Cost of 100/100 with 90 sec of build time. [/li]
[li]Lock Down Stuns a mechanical unit for 15 sec. Massive unit are effected for 5 sec. Range 11, Cost 100 energy. Why? allows ghost to hard counter expensive units like the Siege tank, and immortal. Also can free up TvT boring stalemate siege tanks lines.[/li]
[li]Remove EMP and give to the raven. Why? delays EMP vs Protoss[/li]
Marines,
[li]Combat shield moved to the armory. Why? To balance out early Marines in relationship with the rest of the Terran army.[/li]
Maradares ,
[li]Concussive Shells effect light units with a 10% slow. all other are slowed 50% Massive are immune. Why? To reinforce the anti armor roll of the unit. And allows retreating, Sentries and zealots to truly retreat. [/li]
Vikings,
[li]Damage changed to 10 (+1 vs armored) Why? to buff capable ships and to balance them vs Colossi's new HP.[/li]
Protoss
Zealots,
[li]Gain +10 Shield. Why? increased effective vs Zerg, and early game Terran [/li]
Stalkers,
[li]Damage changed to 8 (+ 8 vs Armored). Why? This will balance Stalkers vs T bio. forces faster tech to defend air harassment. [/li]
[li]Blink cooldown changed to 14sec. Why? reduce the effectiveness of Mass blink Stalker micro vs non armored units.[/li]
Sentry,
[li]Force Field last casting range reduced by 2 to range 7. Why? To lower the effect of Force Field to balance it with the buffed gate way army.[/li]
Colossus,
[li]Movement Speed reduced to 1.88. (Templar's 1.88).Why? Places the unit in a space control role. Encouraging positioning to be thought about before an engagement. [/li]
[li]Attack damage upgrades change to +1. Why? can no longer 1 shot marines and zergling with max upgrades. [/li]
[li]HP reduced by 40 to 160/150. Why? to allow room for Vikings, and Crouptors to be nerfed, allowing capital ships to be used better.[/li]
High Templar,
[li]Storm change to a 2.5 x 2.5 area and changed to deal more damage in the first few ticks and less in the last few. Deals damage in the manner of: 14, 12, 12, 12, 8, 8, 8, 6. Why? Increase Storm cost effectiveness vs fast low HP units, [/li]
[li]Feed back increased to range 10. Why? Puts Emp and feed back on the same level and lets easier feedback of infesters. [/li]
Phoenix,
[li]Damage changed to 7 (+3 vs light) 2 attacks. Phoenix deal 1/2 their total damage as Splash damage in a 1.5 area. Why? to let phoenix harass kill overlords faster and allows them to deal with Mutas better. [/li]
DTs,
[li]Dark Shrine gas cost reduced by 100 and build time reduced by 45 sec. Why? to allow DT harassment to come in to play earlier. and allow DT phoenix builds in PvZ.[/li]
Carriers,
[li]Movement speed increased to 2.08. acceleration increased also. Why? to allow more micro form carriers. Slightly slower than Zealots, Marines who move a 2.25[/li]
Zerg,
Roaches,
[li]Damage reduced to 8 (+4 vs light) Why? Reduces the effectiveness of a roach
Supply reduced to 1. Why? and free up supply in the late game for Zerg armies. still allows roaches to act as buffer between hydras and light melee units but not a the main source of DPS.[/li]
Hydras,
[li]Damage changed to 6 (+ 6 vs armored and psionic). Why To place Hydras back in to a anti armors / arcon role and make the weak vs none armored. [/li]
[li]Light stats removed and now just biological. Why? buffs them vs hellion, phoenix and, banelings.[/li]
[li]Range up grade remove Range 6 is baseline and Movement speed up grade added to make them as fast a roaches speed roaches. Creep speed bonuses reduced. Why? Allow hydras to retreat.[/li]
Crouptors,
[li]Damage changed to 14 (+4 vs massive). Why? Buffs capital ships and balances colossi new HP.
[/li]
Banelings,
[li]Damage nerfed to 20 (+10 vs light)[/li]
[li]Centrifugal Hooks changed, Speed bonus removed. Now allows the baneling to slowly burrow and in-place tunnels with tentacles running the length. Once set up it can quickly launch its self under ground up to a range of 7 detonating under ground on a target. Burrow takes 2 sec. during which the baneling is vulnerable to attack. Why? Creates a new relations between Banelings, marines, and Raves. Scan, and Siege tanks. [/li]
Ultralisk,
[li]Movement speed increased to 4.2. (just slower than a zergling) Why? to incress micro ability[/li]
[li]Collusion size reduced and now have higher priority when moving through a pack of friendly units. Why allows Ultras to move in and around other units better.[/li]
[li]Ultras can now attack on the move once ever 2.4 sec so they deal 1/4 of their dps when chasing units Why? To reduced step kiting Ultralisk.[/li]
Infester,
[li]A Infester can only have 3 infested Terran active at one time. Infested Terran now hatch out in 1 sec. Why? Prevents Mass Infested Terran spam at a expo.[/li][li]
Dark Swarm available at Hive tech costing 200/200 and 140 sec. Dark Swarm will reduced the effectiveness of all ranged attack fired into the Dark swarm by 50% and non spell splash damage by 50%. effects a 4x4 area and last 20 sec. Cost 100 energy. can be cast wile burrowed. Why? Adds Space control with Dark Swarm for late game Zerg. [/li]
[li]Fungal growth root effect dose not effect massive units. [/li]
[li]Neural Parasite removed[/li]
BroodLords,
[li]Broodlords main attack deals 35 damage. Why? To increase damage vs armies that could quickly kill off broodlings[/li]
[li]Broodlings live span reduced to 4 sec. Why? To lower damage vs armies that could not quickly kill off broodlings and to reduced the effect of a "broodling meat shield"[/li]
Overlord,
[li]Every overlord can detect cloaked units after reaching lair tech.
why? To balance out DT, phoenix builds.[/li]
Overseer removed
Effects of Balance,
TvT,
early game would stay about the same.
mid game would see ghost used to lock down a portion of a siege tank line, allowing your own tanks to advance.
Late Game would see more raven use.
TvP
Early game pushes would be lessen do to the buff to cannons and bunkers armor type change allowing for 2 base play to become standard.
Mid game armies would use more mech / mech bio with ghost. Mid game carriers would be possible
The late game would see more spell caster micro, and spell caster harassment.
TvZ,
Early game cheese make more risky. fast expand form Terran can become standers. wile zerg may chose to 3 hatch. Muta buffed in the mid game. to to combat shield. yet becomes weaker in the late game do to upgrade scaling and when combat shield is gained.
Baneling use to control space and slow pushes would allow zerg to expand more in the mid game. Ravens would be use to neutralize banelings with speaker Missile allowing Terran to deni zerg late game space control and force T3 units form the zerg.
PvZ,
Early game cheese make more risky. zealot are used to control hydras, Stalkers are used to control roaches.
Mid game baneling allow zerg to expand, Phoenix / DT and Phoenix / storm builds allow protoss much grader harassment. Forcing zerg to only expand when he can defend.
Fast colossi or storm can clear out a baneling contain. This can forcing zerg in to infester to safely attack with baneling/hydra or roach/hydra after protoss has a high Colossi count. Blink stalkers or phoenixes can deal with Broodlords, and now that broodlings do not build up arcons in the late game are much stronger.
PvP
has some changes to it, Stalker kill other stalker a bit faster and blink stalker vs colossi are much stronger.
ZvZ,
Other than banelings, not a lot will change in the mach up. Mutas are buffed very little vs Hydras do the the gas and speed change. Yet Dark Swarm would allow hydras to deal well with mutas in the later stages of the game. Early roach pushes should force more roaches form your opponent denying muta play.
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On October 11 2011 12:31 Belial88 wrote:
omg the world is suddenly changing because 20% of the population likes kiddie porn, nerf zerg!
So that's why Neural Parasite got nerfed to the ground.
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On October 11 2011 08:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Actually, could they make Gateway units produce at their normal recruitment time? Right now there's no way for Protoss to do anything until Warp Gate research kicks in.
Yes, totally yes. Normal gates should produce units at the same speed as warp gates so it can actually be a choice to use warp gates rather than the requirement it is now.
Of course most people would probably choose to get warp gates eventually for tactical reasons but it would give at least give the option to produce units without having to switch screens for those who prefer it, the way zerg and terran can. Not to mention, giving protoss back more of their early game harass options.
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On October 11 2011 13:59 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 08:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Actually, could they make Gateway units produce at their normal recruitment time? Right now there's no way for Protoss to do anything until Warp Gate research kicks in. Yes, totally yes. Normal gates should produce units at the same speed as warp gates so it can actually be a choice to use warp gates rather than the requirement it is now. Of course most people would probably choose to get warp gates eventually for tactical reasons but it would give at least give the option to produce units without having to switch screens for those who prefer it, the way zerg and terran can. Not to mention, giving protoss back more of their early game harass options.
The real issue is the morphing time of warpgates. Units take roughly 30s to build, but you morphing the warp gate is only 10s, this gives a huge production boost (half a production cycle) when warpgates finishes.
This is really why protoss is so much weaker before warpgate.
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I would like to see warpgate as a mid-late game strategy... 50/50 to morph each gateway individually. Of course gateway units should be a bit stronger to compensate, and/or (if that could break the balance once you have 6 or more warpgates) just train faster that it currently is.
Results? Less boring PvP (real defender's advantage), stronger early game with less dependency on the WG research, more strategic choices, etc. The opponent should fear the switch from gateways to warpgates in mid game, the entire gameplan should change at that time.
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On October 11 2011 02:25 -Duderino- wrote:
I think the game is balanced, definitely more than toss's let on. for the most part everyone agrees tvz is balanced so i'll talk bout tvp.
First off i just want to adress these pro toss players ragging on terran. In the ipl panel with incontrol you heard him and mc "joke" about balance and talk about how op terran is, also in white-ra's game vs puma after he lost he wrote "terran too good" and there are tons of other examples. This might be done in a joking way but it is incredibly bm. It takes away from the skill of the terran player. It is these tosses saying ya you won but your terran so it doesn't count for anything and it has become the excuse of most pros. White ra the supposedly good manner guy, who i do like, got completely outplayed by puma (he engaged against puma with terrible positions and had his zealots funneled in behind mineral line) and the supposed balance issues toss talk about didnt even come into play in the game and he bm'd puma saying he won because he terran. The casters didnt say anything about bm and just kinda laughed it off... Idra takes alot of flak for being bm and i think these toss pros should also.
Second i do think that there is a lack of top level toss pros compared to terran and zerg. Does anyone think MVP and Nestea are the best because they play strong races? if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s? i dont. MC is good but he doesnt compare to those two and he just got pwned by the nobody inori in pvp which i assume toss's will admit is balanced. Try imagine MVP or Nestea getting rolled in a mirror match up.....Toss just doesn't have any innovators like IMMVP or the slayers team for terran. There big innovator right now is creatorprime (althought im still not sure wat his innovation is lol) and we saw how bad his descion skills were in the gstl base race. No toss will ever accept this but i think one reason why there are so few in code s is because more better players play terran and zerg.
As for the balance i feel that tvp is the hardest matchup for me at high masters level. espeacially late game. Vs toss you have to have insane macro, i actually do have to play at much higher speed vs toss than i do vs zerg and terran if i plan on going into the late game. Toss can just sit in there base and macro like a beast getting there 3/3 ups so fast. And late game toss is so hard to deal with. I can have the same economy and good production and ill will roll over there army only to charge ther base and have 15 chargelots and storms waiting for me. Also when toss has 5+ nexus they get so scary. ive had toss switch to having a carrier immortal archon composition in under 5 min. Terran has to rely on the same units the whole game and admitly they do good early and mid game but late game they just dont stack up to these crazy toss composition.
Some points about toss balance that i dont ever hear are:
Toss has advantage over terran on big maps, they can 4 gate, or 6 gate as if it was on steppes of war for a terran they dont have to worry about the distance between bases cuz they warp in at the terran base. so terran and zerg lose there natural defenders advantage because toss reinforcements are arriving at the same time as the defenders.
Another point is dts are pretty good. It used to be that as terran you defended dts you were suppose to go atk them because they invested so much into the dts so you have a bigger army. but now if the dts dont give an auto win they still provide a great transistion into archons chargelots. so terran can have turrents in base and natural, completely shut down the dt harass, and then take ther big army over to the toss base only to be rolled by archons cuz we have no ghosts. This is the equivliant to terran going cloack banshees, toss having an observer out, and terran saying its cool i can merge my two banshee into a battlecruiser.
Also ghosts are much harder to use then toss knows. archons are big units and everygame it feels like im hitting perfect emps but the archons shields are still full and i obviously missed them or ill try to hit two archons at once and it fails. and you pretty much have to land an emp on every archon or they are just to good. and while your aiming you got the the toss army charging you, literally, so you have to micro back against the chargelots while throwing emp and god forbid they have collosi too. Also you never see toss targeting down ghosts toss will engage with there army and have ther high templar roll in from the back and terran will have to send ther ghosts to the front to get emps off b4 the templar gets storm off and i would think at pro level there wuld be skilled enough players to pull templar back when ghosts come foward and have archon or collosi snipe ghost.
overall i think toss could be playing pvt much stronger than are today and i think they will start to here soon. I feel like they need to play more like zerg in zvt. busting out flanks and whatnot toss should be using ther charge lots like zerglings and try to get surronds more often. and i have yet to see a toss effectivly use high templar in a warp prism to negate emp(this goes back to my earlier point about lack of godly toss pros) with the speed upgrade i just cant see how hard it could be to do and i dont think it is beyond the skill of toss players. Finally has toss seen what terran pros do vs banelings, fungals, and storms?? Its called a split terran pros can actually win vs banelings and infestor by using just marines. They split there army up into a ton of small groups so when the instant cast of fungal or storm comes it doesnt hit there whole army. Ive never seen a toss show the micro skill of MKP who or even select lol yes toss has a slower army but comon throw a little micro into your fights( terran even splits thors if they are goin mech vs banes). Emp has a pretty small aoe. Maby toss could try to do this vs the instant cast of emp?(and i dont mean just sit ther with all your units spread out then form into a ball as soon as the atk starts. Sit ther spread out by all means but when you know emps coming start mimicking the skill of terran players and throw units all over and into a big arc and atk after only a portion of your army was emped.)
omg dude what a wall of text.
i will not respond to all of it, only a few things:
the whitera puma games. i agree. whitera played bad, puma was better. 3rd base in game 1 was too early, in 2nd game it was a greedy 3rd base. and he sended his army with chargelots into the meet grinder to save his 3rd. a deserved win for terran in both games imho.
"....if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s?...
yes i do.
hard micro for terran etc:
toss requires the most of unit controll of all races. call it micro or whatever. maybe it looks easier, because toss units move slow. toss is the race, where an a-move loses you the game for sure and the fastest.
you speak about late game. i think most protoss dont complain about late game. its more the weakness in early game, and the vulnerability when expanding, and defending timing pushes.
emp:
you say spread units, put HTs in a warp prism etc. you are right. but that doesnt make it balanced.
facts:
emp
drains up to 100 energy from Z units
drains up to 100 energy from T units
drains up to 100 energy from P units plus 100 from the shields
an empd P army is useless for their high costs
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On October 11 2011 21:31 ypslala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 02:25 -Duderino- wrote:
I think the game is balanced, definitely more than toss's let on. for the most part everyone agrees tvz is balanced so i'll talk bout tvp.
First off i just want to adress these pro toss players ragging on terran. In the ipl panel with incontrol you heard him and mc "joke" about balance and talk about how op terran is, also in white-ra's game vs puma after he lost he wrote "terran too good" and there are tons of other examples. This might be done in a joking way but it is incredibly bm. It takes away from the skill of the terran player. It is these tosses saying ya you won but your terran so it doesn't count for anything and it has become the excuse of most pros. White ra the supposedly good manner guy, who i do like, got completely outplayed by puma (he engaged against puma with terrible positions and had his zealots funneled in behind mineral line) and the supposed balance issues toss talk about didnt even come into play in the game and he bm'd puma saying he won because he terran. The casters didnt say anything about bm and just kinda laughed it off... Idra takes alot of flak for being bm and i think these toss pros should also.
Second i do think that there is a lack of top level toss pros compared to terran and zerg. Does anyone think MVP and Nestea are the best because they play strong races? if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s? i dont. MC is good but he doesnt compare to those two and he just got pwned by the nobody inori in pvp which i assume toss's will admit is balanced. Try imagine MVP or Nestea getting rolled in a mirror match up.....Toss just doesn't have any innovators like IMMVP or the slayers team for terran. There big innovator right now is creatorprime (althought im still not sure wat his innovation is lol) and we saw how bad his descion skills were in the gstl base race. No toss will ever accept this but i think one reason why there are so few in code s is because more better players play terran and zerg.
As for the balance i feel that tvp is the hardest matchup for me at high masters level. espeacially late game. Vs toss you have to have insane macro, i actually do have to play at much higher speed vs toss than i do vs zerg and terran if i plan on going into the late game. Toss can just sit in there base and macro like a beast getting there 3/3 ups so fast. And late game toss is so hard to deal with. I can have the same economy and good production and ill will roll over there army only to charge ther base and have 15 chargelots and storms waiting for me. Also when toss has 5+ nexus they get so scary. ive had toss switch to having a carrier immortal archon composition in under 5 min. Terran has to rely on the same units the whole game and admitly they do good early and mid game but late game they just dont stack up to these crazy toss composition.
Some points about toss balance that i dont ever hear are:
Toss has advantage over terran on big maps, they can 4 gate, or 6 gate as if it was on steppes of war for a terran they dont have to worry about the distance between bases cuz they warp in at the terran base. so terran and zerg lose there natural defenders advantage because toss reinforcements are arriving at the same time as the defenders.
Another point is dts are pretty good. It used to be that as terran you defended dts you were suppose to go atk them because they invested so much into the dts so you have a bigger army. but now if the dts dont give an auto win they still provide a great transistion into archons chargelots. so terran can have turrents in base and natural, completely shut down the dt harass, and then take ther big army over to the toss base only to be rolled by archons cuz we have no ghosts. This is the equivliant to terran going cloack banshees, toss having an observer out, and terran saying its cool i can merge my two banshee into a battlecruiser.
Also ghosts are much harder to use then toss knows. archons are big units and everygame it feels like im hitting perfect emps but the archons shields are still full and i obviously missed them or ill try to hit two archons at once and it fails. and you pretty much have to land an emp on every archon or they are just to good. and while your aiming you got the the toss army charging you, literally, so you have to micro back against the chargelots while throwing emp and god forbid they have collosi too. Also you never see toss targeting down ghosts toss will engage with there army and have ther high templar roll in from the back and terran will have to send ther ghosts to the front to get emps off b4 the templar gets storm off and i would think at pro level there wuld be skilled enough players to pull templar back when ghosts come foward and have archon or collosi snipe ghost.
overall i think toss could be playing pvt much stronger than are today and i think they will start to here soon. I feel like they need to play more like zerg in zvt. busting out flanks and whatnot toss should be using ther charge lots like zerglings and try to get surronds more often. and i have yet to see a toss effectivly use high templar in a warp prism to negate emp(this goes back to my earlier point about lack of godly toss pros) with the speed upgrade i just cant see how hard it could be to do and i dont think it is beyond the skill of toss players. Finally has toss seen what terran pros do vs banelings, fungals, and storms?? Its called a split terran pros can actually win vs banelings and infestor by using just marines. They split there army up into a ton of small groups so when the instant cast of fungal or storm comes it doesnt hit there whole army. Ive never seen a toss show the micro skill of MKP who or even select lol yes toss has a slower army but comon throw a little micro into your fights( terran even splits thors if they are goin mech vs banes). Emp has a pretty small aoe. Maby toss could try to do this vs the instant cast of emp?(and i dont mean just sit ther with all your units spread out then form into a ball as soon as the atk starts. Sit ther spread out by all means but when you know emps coming start mimicking the skill of terran players and throw units all over and into a big arc and atk after only a portion of your army was emped.) omg dude what a wall of text. i will not respond to all of it, only a few things: the whitera puma games. i agree. whitera played bad, puma was better. 3rd base in game 1 was too early, in 2nd game it was a greedy 3rd base. and he sended his army with chargelots into the meet grinder to save his 3rd. a deserved win for terran in both games imho. "....if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s?... yes i do. hard micro for terran etc: toss requires the most of unit controll of all races. call it micro or whatever. maybe it looks easier, because toss units move slow. toss is the race, where an a-move loses you the game for sure and the fastest. you speak about late game. i think most protoss dont complain about late game. its more the weakness in early game, and the vulnerability when expanding, and defending timing pushes. emp: you say spread units, put HTs in a warp prism etc. you are right. but that doesnt make it balanced. facts: emp drains up to 100 energy from Z units drains up to 100 energy from T units drains up to 100 energy from P units plus 100 from the shieldsan empd P army is useless for their high costs
Wait what... Toss rquires more control than terran wtf...
FF/Guardian/Colossi micro
vs.
Kiting/Drops/EMP/Focus Fire/Splitting/Dealing with FF
Which one requires more micro and will lose you a game if you don't do all the important micro?
Kiting zealots (a+move compared to actually using your hands)
Drops need constant attention to keep alive and so the toss can't just sit on two base and tech and insta win
EMPs need to be spot on unless you have a huge lead and can afford lot's of ghosts to spam EMP and trade off damage dealing units like marauders
Focus firing down colossi with vikings so you don't damage 5 colossi instead of kill them
Splitting out of storms
Running up into FF so your stuff is actually shooting (summoning choke points all over the map on a whim is awesome...)
Toss seems like A move because what do they do? Spam F and hit guardian shield and throw zealots at stuff and move a colossi back once in a while.
How people can claim toss requires more control than terran is honestly beyond me... You have more spells big deal half of them are mindless to use and only require 1 click for full effectiveness compared to the constant need to micro from Terran... Try actually playing terran and try to engage a 200/200 deathball and see how it goes with minimal micro.
EMP
drains up to 100 energy from Z units Cool it's good against 1 unit in extremely late game...
drains up to 100 energy from T units Cool it's good against other Ghosts when was the last time you saw this?
drains up to 100 energy from P units plus 100 from the shields
It only does one thing and it does it well..
Storm
80 possible damage in all much match ups (except maybe toss)
So EMP is only good at one thing and does well at it... Storm is good against everything but not super good at it.... Jack of all Trades vs Master....
Terran takes more micro than toss that's why it is favored in the higher leagues because the higher APM is utilized by the terrans while the Protoss just doesn't have any really microable units to use. It's not that toss players are "worse" it's that they can't showcase their skills compared to the essentially unlimited macro possibilities of zerg and the bottomless micro of terran. When was the last time you saw a toss doing amazing harass.
IMO Toss is a broken race with the stupid warp mechanic. They rely too much on high tech units because buffing lower end units would make early game attacks by toss unstoppable without the defenders advantage due to instant warp in wherever. This weakened "basic" army unit's mean that harass will be ineffective and will lead to the deathball becoming the only way to play PvX. Needing one large high tech ball to win a battle so hard that the other guy can't build up fast enough. Sad but true
Just my 2 cents
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On October 11 2011 12:31 Belial88 wrote:
Actually, they aren't that garbage of arguments. The best way to analyze this game, is to analyze the actual game, not results. And when you watch the level of play, it's clear that MVP and Nestea are just the top best players in the world, and it's obvious they would be good no matter what race they played.
I actually watched today's match between Nestea and MVP, specifically looking for mistakes of the sort that make Protoss players fall way behind, or just lose outright. And guess what, they do make them, quite often actually. Even MVP, the god of Terran, does things like unloading hellions out of a medivac into a group of lings, or driving hellions into an expansion and letting them die to spines while they shoot at a Queen. Nestea did multiple awful attacks/drops during the series, that would've been an instant loss had he been playing Protoss.
On the other hand, you have games like Oz vs Curious g2, where I look at Oz's play, and I honestly can't think of anything he could've done to win, and this is after some very, very impressive unit control and crisis management from him.
So yeah, I'm almost certain Nestea or MVP couldn't win a GSL with current Protoss. I wouldn't be surprised if they got knocked out of Code S, just like MC did.
On October 11 2011 12:31 Belial88 wrote:
This season we had Protoss players eliminated in their series against Zerg because we saw:
1. Double stargate all-in
2. 4 gates
3. Proxy 2 gates
4. Going nexus first against 6 pools
5. Letting 30 zerglings run into their base, having their colossi rallied to the zergs base, and blinking their stalkers way ahead of their own army into ling/muta.
6. Trying to sneak a hidden base, and then losing it immediately after putting up a bunch of gateways and cannons and pylons.
7. Did I mention someone ACTUALLY tried to proxy 2 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to 4 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to double stargate?
Who tried to 4gate anyway? I don't recall that happening.
In any case, these players don't do these things because they're bad and can't macro, or because they like terrible builds. Even JYP, the great PvZ hope, did double Stargate vs Jookto on Antiga Shipyard, because how else are you going to play after Zerg takes the gold instead of his natural? You'll get murdered if you try to take a third. HongUn double Stargated on Dual Sight, another map where Protoss can't take a third unless Zerg just lets them for whatever reason.
Tons of Protoss, even the new Code A superheroes, are doing these 2 base all-ins, because in some situations there is no alternative. Although Oz proxy gating was basically him throwing his hands up in the air in a gesture of hopelessness.
The "Nexus first vs 6pool" comment is particularly amusing coming from you, since you believe FFE is a bad opening, and Nexus first is a good one. Well guess what, there's a reason you don't see Nexus first every game, and that's because it's not safe. It wouldn't even be too bad if defending the 6pool meant a win for the Protoss, but against a Forge opening, the 6pool ends up even or ahead almost every time if the Zerg just powers drones after making 6 lings. Compare that too double 8 Gate proxy having a good chance of killing a hatch first on some maps, but losing instantly to anything else, and being impossible to transition out of.
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On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 21:31 ypslala wrote:On October 11 2011 02:25 -Duderino- wrote:
I think the game is balanced, definitely more than toss's let on. for the most part everyone agrees tvz is balanced so i'll talk bout tvp.
First off i just want to adress these pro toss players ragging on terran. In the ipl panel with incontrol you heard him and mc "joke" about balance and talk about how op terran is, also in white-ra's game vs puma after he lost he wrote "terran too good" and there are tons of other examples. This might be done in a joking way but it is incredibly bm. It takes away from the skill of the terran player. It is these tosses saying ya you won but your terran so it doesn't count for anything and it has become the excuse of most pros. White ra the supposedly good manner guy, who i do like, got completely outplayed by puma (he engaged against puma with terrible positions and had his zealots funneled in behind mineral line) and the supposed balance issues toss talk about didnt even come into play in the game and he bm'd puma saying he won because he terran. The casters didnt say anything about bm and just kinda laughed it off... Idra takes alot of flak for being bm and i think these toss pros should also.
Second i do think that there is a lack of top level toss pros compared to terran and zerg. Does anyone think MVP and Nestea are the best because they play strong races? if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s? i dont. MC is good but he doesnt compare to those two and he just got pwned by the nobody inori in pvp which i assume toss's will admit is balanced. Try imagine MVP or Nestea getting rolled in a mirror match up.....Toss just doesn't have any innovators like IMMVP or the slayers team for terran. There big innovator right now is creatorprime (althought im still not sure wat his innovation is lol) and we saw how bad his descion skills were in the gstl base race. No toss will ever accept this but i think one reason why there are so few in code s is because more better players play terran and zerg.
As for the balance i feel that tvp is the hardest matchup for me at high masters level. espeacially late game. Vs toss you have to have insane macro, i actually do have to play at much higher speed vs toss than i do vs zerg and terran if i plan on going into the late game. Toss can just sit in there base and macro like a beast getting there 3/3 ups so fast. And late game toss is so hard to deal with. I can have the same economy and good production and ill will roll over there army only to charge ther base and have 15 chargelots and storms waiting for me. Also when toss has 5+ nexus they get so scary. ive had toss switch to having a carrier immortal archon composition in under 5 min. Terran has to rely on the same units the whole game and admitly they do good early and mid game but late game they just dont stack up to these crazy toss composition.
Some points about toss balance that i dont ever hear are:
Toss has advantage over terran on big maps, they can 4 gate, or 6 gate as if it was on steppes of war for a terran they dont have to worry about the distance between bases cuz they warp in at the terran base. so terran and zerg lose there natural defenders advantage because toss reinforcements are arriving at the same time as the defenders.
Another point is dts are pretty good. It used to be that as terran you defended dts you were suppose to go atk them because they invested so much into the dts so you have a bigger army. but now if the dts dont give an auto win they still provide a great transistion into archons chargelots. so terran can have turrents in base and natural, completely shut down the dt harass, and then take ther big army over to the toss base only to be rolled by archons cuz we have no ghosts. This is the equivliant to terran going cloack banshees, toss having an observer out, and terran saying its cool i can merge my two banshee into a battlecruiser.
Also ghosts are much harder to use then toss knows. archons are big units and everygame it feels like im hitting perfect emps but the archons shields are still full and i obviously missed them or ill try to hit two archons at once and it fails. and you pretty much have to land an emp on every archon or they are just to good. and while your aiming you got the the toss army charging you, literally, so you have to micro back against the chargelots while throwing emp and god forbid they have collosi too. Also you never see toss targeting down ghosts toss will engage with there army and have ther high templar roll in from the back and terran will have to send ther ghosts to the front to get emps off b4 the templar gets storm off and i would think at pro level there wuld be skilled enough players to pull templar back when ghosts come foward and have archon or collosi snipe ghost.
overall i think toss could be playing pvt much stronger than are today and i think they will start to here soon. I feel like they need to play more like zerg in zvt. busting out flanks and whatnot toss should be using ther charge lots like zerglings and try to get surronds more often. and i have yet to see a toss effectivly use high templar in a warp prism to negate emp(this goes back to my earlier point about lack of godly toss pros) with the speed upgrade i just cant see how hard it could be to do and i dont think it is beyond the skill of toss players. Finally has toss seen what terran pros do vs banelings, fungals, and storms?? Its called a split terran pros can actually win vs banelings and infestor by using just marines. They split there army up into a ton of small groups so when the instant cast of fungal or storm comes it doesnt hit there whole army. Ive never seen a toss show the micro skill of MKP who or even select lol yes toss has a slower army but comon throw a little micro into your fights( terran even splits thors if they are goin mech vs banes). Emp has a pretty small aoe. Maby toss could try to do this vs the instant cast of emp?(and i dont mean just sit ther with all your units spread out then form into a ball as soon as the atk starts. Sit ther spread out by all means but when you know emps coming start mimicking the skill of terran players and throw units all over and into a big arc and atk after only a portion of your army was emped.) omg dude what a wall of text. i will not respond to all of it, only a few things: the whitera puma games. i agree. whitera played bad, puma was better. 3rd base in game 1 was too early, in 2nd game it was a greedy 3rd base. and he sended his army with chargelots into the meet grinder to save his 3rd. a deserved win for terran in both games imho. "....if Mvp and Nestea played protoss from the start do you think they would be out of code s?... yes i do. hard micro for terran etc: toss requires the most of unit controll of all races. call it micro or whatever. maybe it looks easier, because toss units move slow. toss is the race, where an a-move loses you the game for sure and the fastest. you speak about late game. i think most protoss dont complain about late game. its more the weakness in early game, and the vulnerability when expanding, and defending timing pushes. emp: you say spread units, put HTs in a warp prism etc. you are right. but that doesnt make it balanced. facts: emp drains up to 100 energy from Z units drains up to 100 energy from T units drains up to 100 energy from P units plus 100 from the shieldsan empd P army is useless for their high costs Wait what... Toss rquires more control than terran wtf... FF/Guardian/Colossi micro vs. Kiting/Drops/EMP/Focus Fire/Splitting/Dealing with FF Which one requires more micro and will lose you a game if you don't do all the important micro? Kiting zealots (a+move compared to actually using your hands) Drops need constant attention to keep alive and so the toss can't just sit on two base and tech and insta win EMPs need to be spot on unless you have a huge lead and can afford lot's of ghosts to spam EMP and trade off damage dealing units like marauders Focus firing down colossi with vikings so you don't damage 5 colossi instead of kill them Splitting out of storms Running up into FF so your stuff is actually shooting (summoning choke points all over the map on a whim is awesome...) Toss seems like A move because what do they do? Spam F and hit guardian shield and throw zealots at stuff and move a colossi back once in a while. How people can claim toss requires more control than terran is honestly beyond me... You have more spells big deal half of them are mindless to use and only require 1 click for full effectiveness compared to the constant need to micro from Terran... Try actually playing terran and try to engage a 200/200 deathball and see how it goes with minimal micro. EMP drains up to 100 energy from Z units Cool it's good against 1 unit in extremely late game... drains up to 100 energy from T units Cool it's good against other Ghosts when was the last time you saw this? drains up to 100 energy from P units plus 100 from the shields It only does one thing and it does it well.. Storm 80 possible damage in all much match ups (except maybe toss) So EMP is only good at one thing and does well at it... Storm is good against everything but not super good at it.... Jack of all Trades vs Master.... Terran takes more micro than toss that's why it is favored in the higher leagues because the higher APM is utilized by the terrans while the Protoss just doesn't have any really microable units to use. It's not that toss players are "worse" it's that they can't showcase their skills compared to the essentially unlimited macro possibilities of zerg and the bottomless micro of terran. When was the last time you saw a toss doing amazing harass. IMO Toss is a broken race with the stupid warp mechanic. They rely too much on high tech units because buffing lower end units would make early game attacks by toss unstoppable without the defenders advantage due to instant warp in wherever. This weakened "basic" army unit's mean that harass will be ineffective and will lead to the deathball becoming the only way to play PvX. Needing one large high tech ball to win a battle so hard that the other guy can't build up fast enough. Sad but true Just my 2 cents
There are a few common things in this thread I often take issue with:
A) Blah race requires more micro and thus other race sucks - never true, honestly at any level there isn't just "less" micro required, just more ways to spend it. If you're ever insinuating that a pro player attacks with a-move and then maybe hits 1-2 hotkeys whilst watching how the battle will unfold, then they surely aren't a pro. If you have the extra APM, there's no shortage of micro that can be applied. Spreading units, stutter steps, surrounds, reinforcements, dropping, spell targetting are micro abilities all races have, and believing otherwise is honestly straight up bias. No race should do the above less than another.
B) Comparisons of two units/abilities/upgrades/etc across two races - for instance, I cry every time I see marauder compared to stalker. They do two different things, and work with each race in a unique way. If Blizzard intended to have them comparable, they'd straight up do the same thing.
C) That a certain race is just not "trying hard enough" or isn't being "innovative". Often in regard to Protoss, but Zerg were given the same treatment some time back (zerg still sometimes). Like somehow, by some fluke of nature, all the best players of a certain race have formed a pact to not try improve and coast along their careers with below average win-loss ratios. Yes, it's a giant conspiracy. However, all in all, innovation alone does not suddenly bump a race into stardom. Terran has been just as innovative as Protoss and Zerg, and no player of any race is just going to say "Well this works for now, might as well just stick with it forever."
This thread is frustrating at times =/
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On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:
Wait what... Toss rquires more control than terran wtf...
FF/Guardian/Colossi micro
vs.
Kiting/Drops/EMP/Focus Fire/Splitting/Dealing with FF
This is a very common theme in balance discussions, one side deliberately omitting things or downplaying aspects of another race.
For example you list focus fire for terran and not protoss. Protoss also have to focus fire (this could be to pick off banshees, tanks, vikings etc).
You also list splitting for terran and not protoss. This is a much smaller issue for protoss but because of EMP protoss still need to split their armies.
You list EMP and then you conveniently just leave out the high Templar altogether.
You also list drops. Well protoss also do drops and they need to be able to defend against drops which can also be APM intensive. In fact often times i think it can take more work to defend drops than to execute them (it's why players like MMA look like gods when they're dropping but fall apart when they get dropped).
On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:Which one requires more micro and will lose you a game if you don't do all the important micro?
Early game this is protoss no question. One missed FF or one slip up with a stalker could = GG.
In the late game i don't think it's nearly as one sided as you think. Both sides need a lot of micro or they will do terribly in engagements.
On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:Toss seems like A move because what do they do? Spam F and hit guardian shield and throw zealots at stuff and move a colossi back once in a while.
How people can claim toss requires more control than terran is honestly beyond me... You have more spells big deal half of them are mindless to use and only require 1 click for full effectiveness compared to the constant need to micro from Terran... Try actually playing terran and try to engage a 200/200 deathball and see how it goes with minimal micro.
There is some incredible irony in here. You're telling him to try out your race to understand how hard it is and yet you're completely ignorant of all the things a protoss player must do.
Have you ever played protoss? You can't just spam F hit guardian shield and a move to victory.
Here is what a regular protoss deathball needs to be doing. They have to be constantly repositioning their army to ensure the zealots are at the front with stalkers/sentries behind and collosus at the back. They have to maneuver their collusus so they don't get pick off by vikings.
They have to try and feedback ghosts and try and land storms on the terran. They also have to try and keep their HT's split so they don't all get EMP'd (now they even have to try and keep them in warp prisms which is very APM intensive).
They have to try and get perfect FF's. They have to try and trap your units and split your army whilst also trying not to get them in the way of the zealots.
They also need to use blink to get their stalkers into good position.
A good protoss play really would need to have a separate control group for his HT's, collosus and stalkers (for blink). They have quite a lot of spells that need to be cast as well (feedback, storm, blink, FF's, Guardian shield).
On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:Terran takes more micro than toss that's why it is favored in the higher leagues because the higher APM is utilized by the terrans while the Protoss just doesn't have any really microable units to use. It's not that toss players are "worse" it's that they can't showcase their skills compared to the essentially unlimited macro possibilities of zerg and the bottomless micro of terran. When was the last time you saw a toss doing amazing harass.
Terran aren't really favored in higher leagues (masters for example is pretty much even). In fact terran is most dominant in bronze and silver which kinda contradicts what you're saying.
On October 11 2011 22:14 tokicheese wrote:IMO Toss is a broken race with the stupid warp mechanic. They rely too much on high tech units because buffing lower end units would make early game attacks by toss unstoppable without the defenders advantage due to instant warp in wherever. This weakened "basic" army unit's mean that harass will be ineffective and will lead to the deathball becoming the only way to play PvX. Needing one large high tech ball to win a battle so hard that the other guy can't build up fast enough. Sad but true
I agree that toss is a broken race and i'm hoping to see some drastic changes. However this attitude from players of every race that they have it harder is ridiculous. Everyone wants to pretend their race has it harder because that way it makes them look like a better player.
Oh and before you call me biased i'm a zerg player (which requires more APM than terran btw  )
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People need to stop comparing the races because they aren't equal.
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On October 11 2011 23:11 dhe95 wrote:
People need to stop comparing the races because they aren't equal.
That's what people are arguing about in this thread, the races not being equal. The win percentages at the highest level (pro's, mainly in korea), as well as how each of those games unfolds, is basically all that should be argued about, since it is clear that balance is really hurting the game at the spectator level.
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All I have to say is I play Terran at Top 6 Master. I have a total of 45 games as Protoss. And I am a high master Protoss... I don't think anyone could do the reverse with Terran, as the race is completely dependent on your micro. For me, Toss is easier to play and the units tend to do the majority of the work for you.
Granted, at Sase's level the micro of a Toss player is no different than the micro of a Terran player. However, at high master, perhaps even in GM NA, there is a huge disparity between Terran and Protoss.
I also want to add that I would trade EMP for Storm any day. Even with EMP, Terran can easily lose. So in this sense, EMP is a necessity, not a privilege. If we do not EMP with the same supply, we lose. Period. Storm on the other hand is a privilege. And the more well-placed storms connect, the more Terran's army will get pulverized. Note that Terran's army must retreat while giving no damage to the Toss army when they are dodging storms. However, during this time the Toss army is still dealing DPS to the Terran army.
I also want to add that Protoss is an extremely strong race that is currently not being utilized.
Why don't I see more:
1) Storm drops from warp prisms
Why: Because Terran can only produce SCVs individually and at a constant rate, which means for the 20 you kill, you neuter their macro.
2) Carrier/Mothership play
Why: Because col Rvsp, a Top 7 GM on NA, wrote a thread on here about how sick powerful this combo was with replays. Why Protoss don't find a way to transition to carriers-- the world may never know...Devastated a 200 zerg army, lost 40 army.
3) General warp prism harass
Why: Because now the unit was hugely buffed, there's a lovely speed upgrade, and high master Toss still aren't using a Huge asset. I've never seen a Toss player (Even in pro streams) make multiple warp prisms and fly them to different bases while attacking with their main army. Toss have the ability to multi-prong harass, but they lack vision.
4) Hallucination
Why: A long time ago we saw IMSeed use Hallucination in a GSTL match and it gave me nerd chills all over my body. Now IMSeed is top 10 GM in Korea, and I'm sure he uses this scare tactic to mis-inform the Terran player of his unit comp. No scan could ever see the entire base, so there would be no way to call IMSeed on his bluff unless you scanned his main army (and who would do that?). Why aren't Toss using Hallucination early for at least these 3 reasons:
a) Make pheonix/collosi hallucination to grant vision of high ground and warp in units from lower pylon
b) Confuse opponent into defending a "1 base push" (hallucinate 2 immortals off a FE build and deny scouting)
c) Confuse opponent into preparing for the wrong unit comp.
In my opinion, Protoss are slow to develop their builds and ideas and it is costing them. Here are 4 extremely good, strong and PROVEN ways they could have even more success. (Besides holding the Majority of the top 10 ranking spots in NA, EU and sometimes KR).
Clearly, Protoss can win even with their current units and basic strategies. But imagine how much better they could be if they had some vision.
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On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:
2) Carrier/Mothership play
Why: Because col Rvsp, a Top 7 GM on NA, wrote a thread on here about how sick powerful this combo was with replays. Why Protoss don't find a way to transition to carriers-- the world may never know...Devastated a 200 zerg army, lost 40 army.
Doesn't take a genius, or even a Protoss, to see the gigantic hole that leaves as you try to transition. Both units are ridiculously expensive and slow to build; if you have the opening to make a transition like that, you've already had the opportunity to simply win.
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On October 12 2011 00:09 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:
2) Carrier/Mothership play
Why: Because col Rvsp, a Top 7 GM on NA, wrote a thread on here about how sick powerful this combo was with replays. Why Protoss don't find a way to transition to carriers-- the world may never know...Devastated a 200 zerg army, lost 40 army.
Doesn't take a genius, or even a Protoss, to see the gigantic hole that leaves as you try to transition. Both units are ridiculously expensive and slow to build; if you have the opening to make a transition like that, you've already had the opportunity to simply win.
col Rsvp had stated that he plays standard 200 supply army Before transitioning to this army. Insteaf of denying it can happen in even games or games where you are behind, try watching the replays and seeing for yourself. It might help not to be trapped by dogma. It can be done.
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On October 11 2011 23:11 dhe95 wrote:
People need to stop comparing the races because they aren't equal.
If you mean that people should stop trying to find a 1:1 correspondence between every unit from Race X and every unit from Race Y, then I agree with you. In fact, Blizzard bigwigs (Browder, Kim, Cooper, etc.) have gone out of their way to say that this is purposely avoided to make the game more dynamic.
However, this also leads to inherent differences between races, which therefore leads to discussions regarding imbalances because of the necessary contrasts between Race X and Race Y. These are the things that should be discussed... nicely.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On October 11 2011 12:31 Belial88 wrote:
This season we had Protoss players eliminated in their series against Zerg because we saw:
1. Double stargate all-in
2. 4 gates
3. Proxy 2 gates
4. Going nexus first against 6 pools
5. Letting 30 zerglings run into their base, having their colossi rallied to the zergs base, and blinking their stalkers way ahead of their own army into ling/muta.
6. Trying to sneak a hidden base, and then losing it immediately after putting up a bunch of gateways and cannons and pylons.
7. Did I mention someone ACTUALLY tried to proxy 2 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to 4 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to double stargate?
Protoss is doing just fine against Zerg. The actual players in the GSL? They are making either huge blunders, or making extremely stupid decisions. I'm not saying that Protoss are the only ones who do stupid things or make blunders, I'm just saying THESE last two seasons, Protoss win rates against Zerg have fallen because a sample size of what, about 8 people?, was totally skewed by a few people making huge, huge blunders.
Has it occurred to you that these Protoss players are taking crazy risks that wind up being "blunders" because, in their professional experience, trying to play standard against the highest level of Zerg opposition will give them an even lower chance of winning?
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On October 12 2011 00:18 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 12:31 Belial88 wrote:
This season we had Protoss players eliminated in their series against Zerg because we saw:
1. Double stargate all-in
2. 4 gates
3. Proxy 2 gates
4. Going nexus first against 6 pools
5. Letting 30 zerglings run into their base, having their colossi rallied to the zergs base, and blinking their stalkers way ahead of their own army into ling/muta.
6. Trying to sneak a hidden base, and then losing it immediately after putting up a bunch of gateways and cannons and pylons.
7. Did I mention someone ACTUALLY tried to proxy 2 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to 4 gate, and ACTUALLY tried to double stargate?
Protoss is doing just fine against Zerg. The actual players in the GSL? They are making either huge blunders, or making extremely stupid decisions. I'm not saying that Protoss are the only ones who do stupid things or make blunders, I'm just saying THESE last two seasons, Protoss win rates against Zerg have fallen because a sample size of what, about 8 people?, was totally skewed by a few people making huge, huge blunders. Has it occurred to you that these Protoss players are taking crazy risks that wind up being "blunders" because, in their professional experience, trying to play standard against the highest level of Zerg opposition will give them an even lower chance of winning?
Yep. Protoss only have themselves to blame for their builds in these crucial tournament matches. Review the 7 points
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On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:
All I have to say is I play Terran at Top 6 Master. I have a total of 45 games as Protoss. And I am a high master Protoss... I don't think anyone could do the reverse with Terran, as the race is completely dependent on your micro. For me, Toss is easier to play and the units tend to do the majority of the work for you.
Well, I'm glad you feel that way. Nice anecdote, I'm sure Blizzard can balance the game around that. There's absolutely no evidence that Protoss takes less micro than Terran to win with.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:Granted, at Sase's level the micro of a Toss player is no different than the micro of a Terran player. However, at high master, perhaps even in GM NA, there is a huge disparity between Terran and Protoss.
Great! So, the game is imbalanced at high masters, but you don't think so at the top level? Well, unfortunately Blizzard should balance around the top level, so your issues are secondary.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:I also want to add that I would trade EMP for Storm any day. Even with EMP, Terran can easily lose. So in this sense, EMP is a necessity, not a privilege. If we do not EMP and make good EMPs, we lose. Period. Storm on the other hand is a privilege. And the more well-placed storms connects, the more Terran's army will get pulverized. Note that Terran's army must retreat while giving no damage to the Toss army when they are dodging storms. However, during this time the Toss army is still dealing DPS to the Terran army.
I also want to add that I would trade Storm for EMP any day. Even with Storm, Protoss can easily lose. So in this sense, Storm is a necessity, not a privilege. If we do not Storm and make good Storms, we lost. Period. EMP on the other hand is a privilege. And the more well-placed EMPs connects, the more Protoss's army will get pulverized. Note that Protoss's army must retreat while giving no damage to the Terran army when they are avoiding EMPs. However, during this time the Terran army is still dealing DPS to the Protoss army.
See how easy it is? You just spouted a whole lot of nothing there. It really comes down to: in your opinion, EMP < Storm. I managed that in about a sentence.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:I also want to add that Protoss is an extremely strong race that is currently not being utilized.
Probably should add "in your opinion" to that, as you don't have any hard evidence for it so it isn't a fact.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:1) Storm drops from warp prisms
Why: Because Terran can only produce SCVs individually and at a constant rate, which means for the 20 you kill, you neuter their macro.
Storm drops do happen, MC/Hero/JYP etc all use them quite a bit. However, because of the complete removal of Amulet it now takes nearly an in-game minute after you warp HTs in for them to reach enough energy to storm. Storm drops are negated by 1/2 patrolling Vikings, which Terran can produce from a reactored Starport (which they need for Medivacs anyway), and Vikings are common anyway to kill Colossi. The investment of Warp Prism + HTs (assuming 2 or more HTs) is 300/300 + 50/150 per extra HT. For 2 Vikings, it is 300/150, and if you need more than 2 Vikings to kill a Warp Prism then it isn't balance that's an issue.
Also, Storm drops take even more micro than Protoss needs already (defending drops themselves, microing Blink Stalkers, keeping army aligned with Zealots at front etc, looking away to Warp in units yadda yadda yadda), so it could just be that the APM requirements are really tough for all but Hero/MC/etc.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:2) Carrier/Mothership play
Why: Because col Rvsp, a Top 7 GM on NA, wrote a thread on here about how sick powerful this combo was with replays. Why Protoss don't find a way to transition to carriers-- the world may never know...Devastated a 200 zerg army, lost 40 army.
Carriers just plain aren't that good. I won't deny the Mothership is a pretty good unit, but the Carrier is awful. It has low DPS for cost (despite public opinion, the Thor's anti air shot has higher DPS), takes years to build and there is a massive timing window where they die badly. Also, they are so immobile that defending far away bases is impossible so you have to turtle while Zerg takes the map. Basically, it's an attempt at making another deathball-style of play, but it is far more gimmicky, relying on the Mothership to Vortex and needs to not die in the meantime.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:3) General warp prism harass
Why: Because now the unit was hugely buffed, there's a lovely speed upgrade, and high master Toss still aren't using a Huge asset. I've never seen a Toss player (Even in pro streams) make multiple warp prisms and fly them to different bases while attacking with their main army. Toss have the ability to multi-prong harass, but they lack vision.
It happens. You clearly don't watch enough. WhiteRa has been doing it since release, Hero does it, quite a few Korean Code A players do it. In lower leagues? Yeah, absolutely, Warp Prism harassment should be done more.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:4) Hallucination
Why: A long time ago we saw IMSeed use Hallucination in a GSTL match and it gave me nerd chills all over my body. Now IMSeed is top 10 GM in Korea, and I'm sure he uses this scare tactic to mis-inform the Terran player of his unit comp. No scan could ever see the entire base, so there would be no way to call IMSeed on his bluff unless you scanned his main army (and who would do that?). Why aren't Toss using Hallucination early for at least these 3 reasons:
a) Make pheonix/collosi hallucination to grant vision of high ground and warp in units from lower pylon
b) Confuse opponent into defending a "1 base push" (hallucinate 2 immortals off a FE build and deny scouting)
c) Confuse opponent into preparing for the wrong unit comp.
1) You need Observers anyway vs Terran (not so much against Zerg, but people have been using Hallu vs Zerg for ages), so it isn't needed.
2) It's been done before, and is gimmicky because if one of the Immortals attacks something and doesn't do any damage or the Terran scans/scouts your base at all you are screwed. It basically relies on a feeble trick which only works once.
3) vs Zerg, because FF/GS is so important you can't use up the energy to be convincing. vs Terran, that plus any scan of your army will give it away and then you have wasted a lot of energy.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:In my opinion, Protoss are slow to develop their builds and ideas and it is costing them. Here are 4 extremely good, strong and PROVEN ways they could have even more success. (Besides holding the Majority of the top 10 ranking spots in NA, EU and sometimes KR).
There we go! An "in your opinion!" I approve. Although your use of "proven" is silly, as they aren't. Give me some statistics or proof that they solve the problems of Protoss and I will be glad to accept the "proven". And why do you think Protoss are somehow less innovative than other races? Are Protoss players just all stupid? Is there some kind of conspiracy? This seems to be an ongoing fallacy amongst Terran and Zerg players (not all, but a few), that Protoss players just aren't "as good" or some variation.
On October 12 2011 00:03 zmansman17 wrote:Clearly, Protoss can win even with their current units and basic strategies.
Clearly, they can't. Not often. Not enough for balance. Not enough for SC2 to be a successful esport.
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