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On October 15 2014 23:52 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:
Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. Unless you consider the armory and the twilight council to be T3 buildings, this would actually be pretty coherent with how this works for everyone else. Well maybe not Lair by itself, but Lair + Infestation Pit would be where the equivalence lies.
By strict definition they are
Barracks =>T1
Factory/Academy=> T2
Starport/Armory => T3
Fusion Core => T4
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On October 16 2014 00:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:52 Maniak_ wrote:On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:
Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. Unless you consider the armory and the twilight council to be T3 buildings, this would actually be pretty coherent with how this works for everyone else. Well maybe not Lair by itself, but Lair + Infestation Pit would be where the equivalence lies. By strict definition they are Barracks =>T1 Factory/Academy=> T2 Starport/Armory => T3 Fusion Core => T4
supply depot T0?
CC T-1?
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On October 15 2014 22:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Anyways, we've had a lot of discussion on stats being good, bad, shit, cherrypicked, bullshit, excellent, handmade, alligulaced, etcetera. People are not going to agree on stats anytime soon. I think I can speak for the objective majority here when I state: In the current metagame, the recently buffed Widow Mine appears to be very strong. However, it's volatile nature makes it very hard to find definitive proof on it's strenght and importance. Point is, Terran needs some sort of AOE to support the Marines (the only versatile unit in the Terran arsenal). Whether we like it or not, these are the facts. Now, there's a couple of ways of dealing with the Widow Mines. I don't necessarily think they should be weaker. I'd like to tackle their survivability. 2/3 mines are not a problem. It's the bigger, snowballing clumps that start firing multiple shots that make the game messy. I propose:
- Widow Mine Target Priority back to 20 from 19.
This makes the Mines die to shit around them, instead of mess with pathing and being generally awkward. They're small units, very hard to accurately click all the time in a fast-paced matchup as ZvT is.
- Widow Mine is no longer immune to Widow Mine Splash.
What this will again do, is make the massive clumps of mines die A LOT faster. Widow Mines kill each other in 3 shots. This will, in my opinion, affect TvP more than it will TvZ. Zealots all of a sudden deal with Mines less unreasonable. Zerglings and Banelings tend to move out of range fast enough, but every shot on a Zealot will cause friendly fire on the Mines themselves. Templar Opening Reborn!?
Alternatively:
- Widow Mine Health reduced to 80.
Why 80? Psionic Storm deals 80 damage, thus killing a mine. This transforms Mines' role in the army more into timed support. They're excellent against Zealots and Archons, but once Storm finishes, it'll be very hard to make them work effectively. Additionally, Banelings now 2- shot mines after +2. Trading 100/50 for 75/25 is a lot more reasonable, keeping in mind reproducability. This way, Zerg actually has a reasonable way to kill Mines scathered around when detection is scarce. Additionally, this gives Zerg a very powerful window for aggression or teching between +2 attack for Zerg finishing and 3/3 for Terran completing. The weakness at 3/3 won't be as large either, as Mines will die faster. Will this force Terran into Mine openings into Hellbat Thor lategames? Maybe. Exciting!!! What do you guys think of this? I think discussion actual options makes more sense, is more fun and more constructive than bashing each other around. Kind regards! I swear, this is like the first Terran player that I have seen in these 1000 pages of this thread that finally admits that his race could use a (minor) nerf, granted I don't check this thread every page, but still wow. Props to you man for speaking out and not being driven by self-interested motives.
Sorry, I play Random. Good luck on your quest to find anybody non-biased (hell, even I am biased. I think P>T and T>Z and P>Z just because of how I experience the matchups).
Also, I didn't necessarily say TvZ was in Terrans favor, I'm of the opinion Mines are retarded and stupid 
On October 15 2014 22:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote + Widow Mine Target Priority back to 20 from 19.
This makes the Mines die to !@#$%^&* around them, instead of mess with pathing and being generally awkward. They're small units, very hard to accurately click all the time in a fast-paced matchup as ZvT is.
Widow Mine is no longer immune to Widow Mine Splash. Don't think this is needed. Your supposed to spread out your army when you engage as zerg, that's why it incentivies micro. If your good enough to focus fire, then that's a reward for the zerg player. Show nested quote +Widow Mine is no longer immune to Widow Mine Splash.
What this will again do, is make the massive clumps of mines die A LOT faster. Widow Mines kill each other in 3 shots. This will, in my opinion, affect TvP more than it will TvZ. Zealots all of a sudden deal with Mines less unreasonable. Zerglings and Banelings tend to move out of range fast enough, but every shot on a Zealot will cause friendly fire on the Mines themselves. Templar Opening Reborn!?
There is already a big penalty for clumping your Widow Mines up. Spreading them up grants you a much better outcome during engagements. Show nested quote +Widow Mine Health reduced to 80.
Why 80? Psionic Storm deals 80 damage, thus killing a mine. This transforms Mines' role in the army more into timed support. They're excellent against Zealots and Archons, but once Storm finishes, it'll be very hard to make them work effectively. Additionally, Banelings now 2- shot mines after +2. Trading 100/50 for 75/25 is a lot more reasonable, keeping in mind reproducability. This way, Zerg actually has a reasonable way to kill Mines scathered around when detection is scarce. Additionally, this gives Zerg a very powerful window for aggression or teching between +2 attack for Zerg finishing and 3/3 for Terran completing. The weakness at 3/3 won't be as large either, as Mines will die faster. Will this force Terran into Mine openings into Hellbat Thor lategames? Maybe. Exciting!!! Agree that Widow Mine should die in one hit to Storm. Either through Storm having + mechanical or Widow Mine 80HP:
Even if you spread out your army, nothing will attack Mines. Good enough to focus fire is applicable to small skirmishing situations. Not to larger engagements. It's rubbish to say Zergs need to target fire Mines (tiny tiny unit) in battles often spreading out of a single screen and in which over 300 units are participating. It's impossible to demand that.
Give a good argument for why Mines should have lower target priority. I have never really read a reason for it. It's just silly and awkward.
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Clumping is punished by overkill.This again is only relevant in large engagements. A clumped batch of mines will usually die to Banelings they targeted themselves anyways.
No. I'm talking about them splashing other mines as well. Why? It happens too often that Terran either starts to snowball mines, making it near impossible for Zerg to engage. Mines have a lot of power now. A Mine that shoots once is usually a reasonable investment for Terran. Problems arise when Mines get mutliple shots off. They become sickmakingly effective after that.
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I disagree with + vs Mechanical.
While that might be a fun addition in PvP, in TvP it's terrible.
Medivacs, Vikings taking more damage is not a good thing.
And it also put's another nail in the coffin of TvP Mech, which is so epic if somebody pulls it off....
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On October 16 2014 00:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:52 Maniak_ wrote:On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:
Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. Unless you consider the armory and the twilight council to be T3 buildings, this would actually be pretty coherent with how this works for everyone else. Well maybe not Lair by itself, but Lair + Infestation Pit would be where the equivalence lies. By strict definition they are Barracks =>T1 Factory/Academy=> T2 Starport/Armory => T3 Fusion Core => T4
By strict definition, they are
NOPE
Starcraft isn't defined in Tiers.
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On October 15 2014 23:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 23:11 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 22:44 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 19:14 Grumbels wrote:Maybe Blizzard should do this: Hive: Requirements: - Lair
- Infestation Pit or Spire or Hydralisk Den
It makes zerg tech more readable and the transition to hive more reasonable. After all, why should you be discriminated against for choosing hydralisks or mutalisks as your T2 tech option? This way you'll know that zerg can transition to T3 at any time without being caught off-guard by a hidden infestation pit. And now you can more easily keep up with upgrades while defending with mutalisks against a parade push. As a Protoss player: Absolutely not. No way in hell is that fair. Not only does it make Vipers much more easily accessible from Hydras (and reminder, Hydra/Viper allin IS a thing) but also it generally makes it much harder to read what the Zerg is going for which is one of the most important things in PvZ. Less relevant, but it also makes Ultras more accessible from Mutas, two units that require vastly different responses. It's more of a conceptual change. I prefer to only have changes made to the game that improve the game design. I think requiring the Infestation Pit is an artifact of the requiring a Queen's Nest in the original Starcraft, but I don't think it's very clean in terms of design. If there are balance issues with reaching Hive more quickly with regards to Vipers it's always possible to make Vipers require an Infestation Pit. I think there are benefits to having more parity between the races in terms of when you can start your T3 upgrades. Much easier way to fix that would be to allow Zerg to research T3 upgrades on Lair tech (and perhaps make them take a bit longer to compensate). But giving them the Hive units earlier and from any tech is dangerous for PvZ. Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. That's clearly the purpose of Hive, that's what makes sense. Imo, Hive unlocking a unit doesn't make sense because no other zerg unit is really like that so I wouldn't mind if Vipers required an Infestation Pit. Well, I don't think catering to your OCD is worth messing up the game balance In BW Hive unlocked Ultras, Guardians, Devourers, and Defilers. If you need a reason to justify it you can say that only the Hive can produce larva worthy enough to morph into such awesome Zerg species.
You needed Ultralisk cavern, greater spire and defiler mound... nothing was unlocked by just the Hive, just saying
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Well,
T1
T: Engineering bay
P: Forge
Z: Evo chamber
T2
T: Barracks, Factory, Armory
P: Gateway, Cyber, Twilight Council
Z: Spawning pool, Lair
T3
T: -
P: -
Z: Infestation Pit, Hive
Cost of upgrades:
T (bio): 100/100x2 + 175/175x2 + 250/250x2 = 1050/1050
P (ground): 100/100x2 + 150/150x2 + 200/200x2 + 150/150 + 225/225 + 300/300 = 1575/1575
Z (melee): 100/100 + 150/150 + 200/200 + 150/150 + 225/225 + 300/300 = 1125/1125
Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade).
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On October 16 2014 00:20 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:22 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 23:11 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 22:44 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 19:14 Grumbels wrote:Maybe Blizzard should do this: Hive: Requirements: - Lair
- Infestation Pit or Spire or Hydralisk Den
It makes zerg tech more readable and the transition to hive more reasonable. After all, why should you be discriminated against for choosing hydralisks or mutalisks as your T2 tech option? This way you'll know that zerg can transition to T3 at any time without being caught off-guard by a hidden infestation pit. And now you can more easily keep up with upgrades while defending with mutalisks against a parade push. As a Protoss player: Absolutely not. No way in hell is that fair. Not only does it make Vipers much more easily accessible from Hydras (and reminder, Hydra/Viper allin IS a thing) but also it generally makes it much harder to read what the Zerg is going for which is one of the most important things in PvZ. Less relevant, but it also makes Ultras more accessible from Mutas, two units that require vastly different responses. It's more of a conceptual change. I prefer to only have changes made to the game that improve the game design. I think requiring the Infestation Pit is an artifact of the requiring a Queen's Nest in the original Starcraft, but I don't think it's very clean in terms of design. If there are balance issues with reaching Hive more quickly with regards to Vipers it's always possible to make Vipers require an Infestation Pit. I think there are benefits to having more parity between the races in terms of when you can start your T3 upgrades. Much easier way to fix that would be to allow Zerg to research T3 upgrades on Lair tech (and perhaps make them take a bit longer to compensate). But giving them the Hive units earlier and from any tech is dangerous for PvZ. Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. That's clearly the purpose of Hive, that's what makes sense. Imo, Hive unlocking a unit doesn't make sense because no other zerg unit is really like that so I wouldn't mind if Vipers required an Infestation Pit. Well, I don't think catering to your OCD is worth messing up the game balance In BW Hive unlocked Ultras, Guardians, Devourers, and Defilers. If you need a reason to justify it you can say that only the Hive can produce larva worthy enough to morph into such awesome Zerg species. You needed Ultralisk cavern, greater spire and defiler mound... nothing was unlocked by just the Hive, just saying
Great Let's introduce the Viper Den. New requirement for the Viper. Suits me just fine
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Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade).
Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage.
Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved.
And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also.
And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc.
At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings.
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On October 16 2014 00:54 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade). Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage. Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved. And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also. And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc. At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings.
It's a good thing zerglings get +4/+3 max upgrades to compensate then.
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On October 15 2014 23:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 23:17 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 23:11 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:On October 15 2014 22:44 DinoMight wrote:On October 15 2014 19:14 Grumbels wrote:Maybe Blizzard should do this: Hive: Requirements: - Lair
- Infestation Pit or Spire or Hydralisk Den
It makes zerg tech more readable and the transition to hive more reasonable. After all, why should you be discriminated against for choosing hydralisks or mutalisks as your T2 tech option? This way you'll know that zerg can transition to T3 at any time without being caught off-guard by a hidden infestation pit. And now you can more easily keep up with upgrades while defending with mutalisks against a parade push. As a Protoss player: Absolutely not. No way in hell is that fair. Not only does it make Vipers much more easily accessible from Hydras (and reminder, Hydra/Viper allin IS a thing) but also it generally makes it much harder to read what the Zerg is going for which is one of the most important things in PvZ. Less relevant, but it also makes Ultras more accessible from Mutas, two units that require vastly different responses. It's more of a conceptual change. I prefer to only have changes made to the game that improve the game design. I think requiring the Infestation Pit is an artifact of the requiring a Queen's Nest in the original Starcraft, but I don't think it's very clean in terms of design. If there are balance issues with reaching Hive more quickly with regards to Vipers it's always possible to make Vipers require an Infestation Pit. I think there are benefits to having more parity between the races in terms of when you can start your T3 upgrades. Much easier way to fix that would be to allow Zerg to research T3 upgrades on Lair tech (and perhaps make them take a bit longer to compensate). But giving them the Hive units earlier and from any tech is dangerous for PvZ. Maybe I'm compulsive about these things, but you can not have Lair unlock T3 upgrades. That's clearly the purpose of Hive, that's what makes sense. Imo, Hive unlocking a unit doesn't make sense because no other zerg unit is really like that so I wouldn't mind if Vipers required an Infestation Pit. Well, I don't think catering to your OCD is worth messing up the game balance In BW Hive unlocked Ultras, Guardians, Devourers, and Defilers. If you need a reason to justify it you can say that only the Hive can produce larva worthy enough to morph into such awesome Zerg species.
The path to hell leads past T3 upgrades on Lair.
Actually, I just think it's nicer for game design if zerg has the following:
-roach warren or baneling nest unlocks lair req
-infestation pit, hydralisk den or spire unlocks hive req
-viper unlocked by infestation pit, abduct(/consume) is hive research
I think it's cleaner and easier to understand for new players and it would fix the issue with T3 upgrades while not making vipers useful too quickly as well as the inconsistency of hive unlocking the viper. If you're concerned that vipers and infestors are too similar and shouldn't both be on the infestation pit you can make vipers come from the hydralisk den and rename that one.
I know that besides myself nobody cares about cleanness of design.
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I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but it is just impossible to mess with Zergs tech without wrecking balance.
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On October 16 2014 00:54 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade). Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage. Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved. And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also. And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc. At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings.
?
What in God's name are you talking about?
Marine gets +1 attack, Zerling gets +1 armor.
Marine gets +1 armor, 2 Zerglings get +1 attack.
If you have 5 marines and 10 zerglins (same cost)
+1 attack for both (same cost)
Marines get 5 extra damage output, Zerglings get 10 extra damage output
Widow mines don't get attack upgrades. Nobody uses tanks vs Z except maybe Bomber sometimes.
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On October 16 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 00:54 Foxxan wrote:Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade). Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage. Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved. And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also. And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc. At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings. ? What in god's name are you talking about? Marine gets +1 attack, Zerling gets +1 armor. Marine gets +1 armor, 2 Zerglings get +1 attack. If you have 5 marines and 10 zerglins (same cost) +1 attack for both (same cost) Marines get 5 extra damage output, Zerglings get 10 extra damage output
Marines scale better with army size. 50 marines can kill almost an infinite number of zerglings. If you assume that in late-game army size is higher then it's reasonable to add an upgrade like adrenal glands to "equalize".
Also, I don't think that upgrades scale equally well for all races, but I don't have any relevant data.
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Even if you spread out your army, nothing will attack Mines. Good enough to focus fire is applicable to small skirmishing situations. Not to larger engagements. It's rubbish to say Zergs need to target fire Mines (tiny tiny unit) in battles often spreading out of a single screen and in which over 300 units are participating. It's impossible to demand that.
Yeh but instead of amoving and thereby attacking mines, your not supposed to attack mass mines during engagements, but instead spread out to minimize damage taken. I don't see why that's flawed from a design-perspective.
I feel from a design-perspective, the Widow Mine can sometimes be a bit too unforgiven to play against, which your suggestion doens't really adress.
No. I'm talking about them splashing other mines as well. Why? It happens too often that Terran either starts to snowball mines, making it near impossible for Zerg to engage. Mines have a lot of power now. A Mine that shoots once is usually a reasonable investment for Terran. Problems arise when Mines get mutliple shots off. They become sickmakingly effective after that.
I disagree that it happens frequently. If mines really scaled that well, then people would add 3rd factory much sooner and just produce constant Mines. As a terran you have the gas for that on 6 geysers, so there is no reason not to do it.
TvZ Win/rates are close to 50-50, and there is little evidence based on qualitative analysis that Widow Mines really cause any balance-related problem in the matchup.
It's more of a conceptual change. I prefer to only have changes made to the game that improve the game design. I think requiring the Infestation Pit is an artifact of the requiring a Queen's Nest in the original Starcraft, but I don't think it's very clean in terms of design. If there are balance issues with reaching Hive more quickly with regards to Vipers it's always possible to make Vipers require an Infestation Pit. I think there are benefits to having more parity between the races in terms of when you can start your T3 upgrades.
Actually I never thought of this before, but it kinda makes sense. Are there really any super important balance reason for why Infestiation pit should be required to research Hive? If not, then it should honestly just be removed. I think it's also problematic when one race has a more cost-effective army for an extended period due to researching 3/3 earlier. I think it's important that you create dynamics where both races have roughly equal army strenght at all times in order to create interaction where both races can battle each other fairly.
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When you mess with infestation pit / hive requirements and T3 you can seriously fuck up PvZ which is favoring Z right now a bit.
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On October 16 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 00:54 Foxxan wrote:Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade). Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage. Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved. And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also. And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc. At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings. ? What in God's name are you talking about? Marine gets +1 attack, Zerling gets +1 armor. Marine gets +1 armor, 2 Zerglings get +1 attack. If you have 5 marines and 10 zerglins (same cost) +1 attack for both (same cost) Marines get 5 extra damage output, Zerglings get 10 extra damage output Widow mines don't get attack upgrades. Nobody uses tanks vs Z except maybe Bomber sometimes.
I was simple correcting you.
I have no idea what you are saying in this post btw.
Tanks arent used in tvz? Yeah i know. Why in gods name are u writing that. Why on gods name dont u mention hellbats or thors? They does not get +1, they get more...
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On October 16 2014 03:02 DinoMight wrote:
When you mess with infestation pit / hive requirements and T3 you can seriously fuck up PvZ which is favoring Z right now a bit.
Yes, its bad to improve the game design making balance worse T_T
It deffinetly breaks PvZ, altough i think its pretty balanced now.
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On October 16 2014 03:12 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:On October 16 2014 00:54 Foxxan wrote:Seeing as T2 requires less for Zerg, T3 requires more. I don't think its totally out of whack. Also keep in mind that with more units on the field, Zerg benefits more from upgrades when they're +1 attack per level (so for example 2 lings gain a lot more DPS than 1 Marine per upgrade). Well. I just hate the simple strategy that terran have their 3/3 before zerg and therefore have a major advantage. Its not fun. Its not much of strategy involved. And zerglings scale bad as hell while mariness scale good as hell. Roaches scale bad also. And upgrades can give +3 for some units, +5 for tanks etc. At the same time, armor neglects the attack upgrades for zerglings. ? What in God's name are you talking about? Marine gets +1 attack, Zerling gets +1 armor. Marine gets +1 armor, 2 Zerglings get +1 attack. If you have 5 marines and 10 zerglins (same cost) +1 attack for both (same cost) Marines get 5 extra damage output, Zerglings get 10 extra damage output Widow mines don't get attack upgrades. Nobody uses tanks vs Z except maybe Bomber sometimes. I was simple correcting you. I have no idea what you are saying in this post btw. Tanks arent used in tvz? Yeah i know. Why in gods name are u writing that. Why on gods name dont u mention hellbats or thors? They does not get +1, they get more...
Roaches get +2 for each attack upgrade and yet they scale bad? You know why? All those units you claim have upgrade bonuses higher than 1 all have slow attack speeds. Think Ultralisks have + 3. So larger numbers in this case make upgrades more relevant to those units.
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Although very cordial, this thread is hitting an academic low right now.
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Northern Ireland27293 Posts
It's also a million times more interesting than endless debates about win-rates
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EPT
